TSGN and Southeastern - future merger?

[telstarbox]

From 2015 the existing FCC and Southern services will merge, with the Southeastern/FCC services moving to the new TSGN franchise.

As the neighbouring TSGN and Southeastern services will 'share' Victoria, London Bridge and St Pancras, and there are some overlaps of lines in the London area, is it ever likely that they will be merged as well if TSGN works successfully or would it be a bridge too far?

If they did merge the combined franchise would be smaller than Northern in terms of geographic area or stations operated, although these measures doesn't reflect the true size of operations as Northern have many more stations which are unstaffed/lightly used.

Southern 156 + FCC 77 + Southeastern 174 = Total 407 stations
Northern 462 stations

 

[transmanche]

As the neighbouring TSGN and Southeastern services will 'share' Victoria, London Bridge and St Pancras, and there are some overlaps of lines in the London area, is it ever likely that they will be merged as well if TSGN works successfully or would it be a bridge too far?

I suspect a merger would only be considered if all the London area 'metro' routes were transferred to TfL control.

 

[Bedpan]

I don't think that the sharing of lines and stations would be a criterion for merging franchises, otherwise Thameslink and Southern would have been merged years ago. Without counting them up, I would have thought that they shared more than half of the stations served by Thameslink once Thameslink lost their Sevenoaks and Guildford routes and took over the Wimbledon/Sutton loop.

 

[Minstral25]

Southern and FCC Thameslink trains run along the same tracks. At Victoria the South-Eastern and Southern stations are split both in platforms and operationally. The same will be the case in London Bridge once all the work is complete (In fact South-Eastern will split into two separate operational railways.

South-Eastern will also effectively leave Blackfriars as the routes into Blackfriars are being transferred to Thameslink although obviously they go on to run on the South-Eastern network.

 

[Bedpan]

Good point, and even more so the case at St Pancras.

 

[DJL]

Southern and FCC Thameslink trains run along the same tracks. At Victoria the South-Eastern and Southern stations are split both in platforms and operationally. The same will be the case in London Bridge once all the work is complete (In fact South-Eastern will split into two separate operational railways.

South-Eastern will also effectively leave Blackfriars as the routes into Blackfriars are being transferred to Thameslink although obviously they go on to run on the South-Eastern network.

Isn't the plan that some currently through services in peak only will be run as far as Blackfriars only and run by southeastern?
I'm thinking of the Bedford-Ashford & Bedford-Rochester services.

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't the plan that some currently through services in peak only will be run as far as Blackfriars only and run by southeastern?
I'm thinking of the Bedford-Ashford & Bedford-Rochester services.

Correct. The three morning peak services from Ashford / Rochester will go no further than Blackfriars from the December 2014* TT change. The same applies to the three southbound pm peak services which will start at Blackfriars. They will be operated by Southeastern.

* note that whilst the December 2014 TT change is on 14/12/14, because of the major stage works at London Bridge this Christmas, the Thameslink timetable is
likely to change on 20/12/14.

 

[cle]

Isn't Ashford/Maidstone also a contender for regular core services though? Would these be at the expense of Victoria trains?

 

[swt_passenger]

Isn't Ashford/Maidstone also a contender for regular core services though? Would these be at the expense of Victoria trains?

Ashford isn't - it fell off the Thameslink map once the Wimbledon loop fell back on...

With 16 tph off 'the Southern' via New Cross Gate, 4 tph 'loop', that only leaves 4 tph off 'Southeastern' to the core, which is stated as 2 tph from Sevenoaks all day, and 2 tph from Maidstone East in the peak only.

That's an area where the TSGN ITT no longer gives any flexibility or asks for new ideas, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Class377/5]

Ashford isn't - it fell off the Thameslink map once the Wimbledon loop fell back on...

With 16 tph off 'the Southern' via New Cross Gate, 4 tph 'loop', that only leaves 4 tph off 'Southeastern' to the core, which is stated as 2 tph from Sevenoaks all day, and 2 tph from Maidstone East in the peak only.

That's an area where the TSGN ITT no longer gives any flexibility or asks for new ideas, to the best of my knowledge.

Ashford was actually directly suggested as a Thameslink service in the TSGN ITT if bidders wished it to be an extension of the Maidstone service. Note the hours given for Maidstone mean its about for a fair bit of the day in some way.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Ashford was actually directly suggested as a Thameslink service in the TSGN ITT if bidders wished it to be an extension of the Maidstone service. Note the hours given for Maidstone mean its about for a fair bit of the day in some way.

If you happened to have the Southeastern franchise and thus HS1 the desire to run from Ashford through the Thameslink core is presumably limited as it would compete with HS1.

 

[Class377/5]

If you happened to have the Southeastern franchise and thus HS1 the desire to run from Ashford through the Thameslink core is presumably limited as it would compete with HS1.

Southeastern already run a service this way so not sure I'd agree with your statement as its busy. Maybe not from Ashford tho.