Turnaround of loco-hauled services at termini

[SquireBev]

Forgive my ignorance, but having grown up only knowing DMUs, EMUs, and trains with DVTs, I find myself struggling to fully understand how loco-hauled trains were turned around in the days when they formed the majority of services.

I assume that branchline termini were handled much as they are on heritage railways today, in that the train engine would uncouple and run around on a loop, being turned on a turntable if necessary.

It's larger stations that I struggle with, as on most of the old maps I've seen, there are no such run-round facilities. Even some relatively minor stations seem to lack any sort of loop. So how did it work? How was the engine released? Did the same engine then take the same rake of carriages out to form a return service, or was everything sent off to the shed and a new train made up?

Many thanks.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

I assume that branchline termini were handled much as they are on heritage railways today, in that the train engine would uncouple and run around on a loop, being turned on a turntable if necessary.

I think so, although, come to think of it, I never visited a branch terminus back in the day.

EDIT Unless Leicester Belgrave Rd counts as a branch terminus - but it was so long ago I am clueless as to the track layout. I do have vague memories of buffers, however.

It's larger stations that I struggle with, as on most of the old maps I've seen, there are no such run-round facilities. Even some relatively minor stations seem to lack any sort of loop. So how did it work? How was the engine released?

It often wasn't. Or rather, it had to wait until the stock was worked out, either as ECS to the carriage sidings for cleaning, or as another service.

I believe some stations had release roads. The train would stop short of the buffers, uncouple the train engine, which would work forward, clear of the points, an then could reverse back out. But at most major terminii that i remember, the train engine was just stuck there.

Did the same engine then take the same rake of carriages out to form a return service,

Not normally, not the same consist, as the engine would need turning. At intensive suburban operations, eg Fenchurch Street, the train would be worked out by another tank as a service train, and the released loco would come out and couple up for the next service.

 

[306024]

Ah the good old days

Here's how it works where there are no run round facilities.

In simple terms, train A arrives. Loco is uncoupled. Fresh loco attaches to train A, and off it goes.

The loco left behind runs forward to the holding sidings (where provided), to await its next job.

If the stock for the next working, train B, is already in the platform the loco can simply shunt from one platform to the next, attach to the front and off it goes when ready.

Loco left behind from train B then runs to the holding sidings or attaches to the front of train C, and so on.

If it is a steam loco it may have to run to a turntable to, err, turn, before its next working.

Now throw in the mixture air or vacuum braked stock, steam or electric heat, and you find you have to match the right loco to the right stock. Oh and make sure there's enough fuel (where needed) too.

Locomotive diagramming was a fascinating job, far more interesting than the up and down railway of today.

 

[telstarbox]

How did it work at Charing Cross / Cannon Street which are quite constrained? Roughly how many services could be turned around in the peaks in the steam era?

 

[SquireBev]

Aha, insightful stuff! Thanks chaps, keep it coming.

Presumably things were made a bit simpler with the coming of diesels as they wouldn't need to be turned, but how long was it before they just gave up and stuck a DVT on the end of everything?

 

[Ianno87]

Aha, insightful stuff! Thanks chaps, keep it coming.

Presumably things were made a bit simpler with the coming of diesels as they wouldn't need to be turned, but how long was it before they just gave up and stuck a DVT on the end of everything?

DVTs were introduced on the WCML in the late 1980s to end the practice of engine changes on West Coast services. XC services were conventionally loco hauled (or HSTs) until introduction of Voyagers in the early 2000s.

ECML services had DVTs introduced as part of the launch of Mk 4 sets in about 1989 anyway - no great change here as they just replaced HSTs, which themselves replaced conventional loco haulage (by the likes of Deltics) in the 1970s.

Push Pull operation of loco hauled services in Scotland (such as Glasgow-Edinburgh) was introduced in the early/mid 80s using DBSOs, until DMUs took over in the early 90s.
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Ah the good old days

Here's how it works where there are no run round facilities.

In simple terms, train A arrives. Loco is uncoupled. Fresh loco attaches to train A, and off it goes.

The loco left behind runs forward to the holding sidings (where provided), to await its next job.

If the stock for the next working, train B, is already in the platform the loco can simply shunt from one platform to the next, attach to the front and off it goes when ready.

Loco left behind from train B then runs to the holding sidings or attaches to the front of train C, and so on.

If it is a steam loco it may have to run to a turntable to, err, turn, before its next working.

Now throw in the mixture air or vacuum braked stock, steam or electric heat, and you find you have to match the right loco to the right stock. Oh and make sure there's enough fuel (where needed) too.

Locomotive diagramming was a fascinating job, far more interesting than the up and down railway of today.

Ah yes, I used to enjoy watching XC services do exactly that at Manchester Piccadilly every hour through the day. The holding siding is still there, between the Up Slow and Down Fast lines just outside the station (as is the one at Liverpool Lime Street).

 

[Mag_seven]

Here's how it works where there are no run round facilities.

In simple terms, train A arrives. Loco is uncoupled. Fresh loco attaches to train A, and off it goes.

The loco left behind runs forward to the holding sidings (where provided), to await its next job.

Or at Glasgow QS the loco that brought the stock in would often bank the stock up Cowlairs incline!

 

[Bevan Price]

Ah the good old days

Here's how it works where there are no run round facilities.

In simple terms, train A arrives. Loco is uncoupled. Fresh loco attaches to train A, and off it goes.

The loco left behind runs forward to the holding sidings (where provided), to await its next job.

If the stock for the next working, train B, is already in the platform the loco can simply shunt from one platform to the next, attach to the front and off it goes when ready.

Loco left behind from train B then runs to the holding sidings or attaches to the front of train C, and so on.

If it is a steam loco it may have to run to a turntable to, err, turn, before its next working.

Now throw in the mixture air or vacuum braked stock, steam or electric heat, and you find you have to match the right loco to the right stock. Oh and make sure there's enough fuel (where needed) too.

Locomotive diagramming was a fascinating job, far more interesting than the up and down railway of today.

Alternatively, if a long distance train arrived at a terminal station, the loco would uncouple, the station "pilot" (shunter) would take the stock to sidings, or to another platform, and the incoming loco would retire to the nearest loco shed, to be prepared for its next working. (At somewhere like Liverpool Lime St., the incoming loco might bank the e.c.s. to Edge Hill, because the station pilot - often a "Jinty" 0-6-0T - would struggle without assistance up the gradient with up to 16 coaches.)

 

[30907]

How did it work at Charing Cross / Cannon Street which are quite constrained? Roughly how many services could be turned around in the peaks in the steam era?

Cannon Street had 14 steam departures in 2 hours, Charing Cross 1 and Victoria 0.

As already suggested, train engines were used for the ECS workings by and large, but there was a further complication to those listed by 306024: about half the ECS came from Stewarts Lane via Ludgate Hill over a route that was barred to the Schools class, so that a couple of smaller locos had to be allocated to ECS duties. (Gammell, SR Engine Workings)

Charing Cross had its own small servicing facility just across the river, while Ewer St was convenient for Cannon St.

 

[SquireBev]

Alternatively, if a long distance train arrived at a terminal station, the loco would uncouple, the station "pilot" (shunter) would take the stock to sidings, or to another platform, and the incoming loco would retire to the nearest loco shed, to be prepared for its next working. (At somewhere like Liverpool Lime St., the incoming loco might bank the e.c.s. to Edge Hill, because the station pilot - often a "Jinty" 0-6-0T - would struggle without assistance up the gradient with up to 16 coaches.)

Were station pilots commonplace across the network, or were they only present at the major terminals?

 

[Cowley]

Were station pilots commonplace across the network, or were they only present at the major terminals?

I remember stations outside London having pilots even in the 1980s, for instance Norwich had 08869 named The Canary and painted unofficial green.
Does Penzance still use one for the sleepers too?

 

[AJM580]

I remember stations outside London having pilots even in the 1980s, for instance Norwich had 08869 named The Canary and painted unofficial green.
Does Penzance still use one for the sleepers too?

We had class 03 with match trucks until 1987 then 08s until 1990s when DBSOs took over

 

[edwin_m]

Ah the good old days

Here's how it works where there are no run round facilities.

In simple terms, train A arrives. Loco is uncoupled. Fresh loco attaches to train A, and off it goes.

The loco left behind runs forward to the holding sidings (where provided), to await its next job.

To add to the interest, the loco against the buffer stops could and usually did follow the departing train along the platform, coming to a stand at the starter signal to await a route to the siding or elsewhere. I remember this with the electrics at Manchester Piccadilly and I believe it continued until the introduction of the DVTs but has since been banned on the very rare occasions when it might be needed these days. It sounds scary but I don't think there were ever any collisions, and the driver would presumably have been very aware of the risk of an unexpected brake application to the train in front.

If for some reason the driver did not move the loco immediately after the train, he would have to wait at the stops for the signal to clear. It would be embarrassing to say the least he moved off later and another train had been signalled into the platform in the meantime.

 

[Cowley]

We had class 03 with match trucks until 1987 then 08s until 1990s when DBSOs took over

I think I saw the 03s at March after they were withdrawn. Didn't Newcastle have 03s and match trucks too? Liverpool St had a nice 08 pilot in the 80s too in a different livery, can't remember what it was though.

 

[GusB]

I think I saw the 03s at March after they were withdrawn. Didn't Newcastle have 03s and match trucks too? Liverpool St had a nice 08 pilot in the 80s too in a different livery, can't remember what it was though.

08833? According to the 1989 Ian Allan loco book it was painted in GE blue and was named Liverpool Street Pilot.

The only station pilot I remember seeing on a regular basis was at Inverness.

 

[306024]

Stratford depot had a long history of turning out an immaculate Liverpool St station pilot, even in steam days.

At Norwich a class 03 would pull the arrival back out of the station far enough to release the incoming loco through an adjacent platform. The diagrams used to show SRL, Shunt Release Loco.

Lots of different ways to work a terminal depending on the track layout, but it is crucial to understand the platform working too.

 

[ainsworth74]

Does Penzance still use one for the sleepers too?

I have seen an 08 move the stock, I've seen a 57 do it and I've even seen them do a propelling move once! All in the last few years.

 

[sprinterguy]

Didn't Newcastle have 03s and match trucks too?

Newcastle was one of last bastions of class 03 operation on the mainland, along with Norwich. Parcels traffic kept them busy.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Pilot engines were basically for shunting and stock moves when there was a lot more attaching and detaching than today (parcels vans especially) , often 03 or 08 shunt locos

Certain stations - Reading notably - had a spare 47 or 50 in one of the country end bays to replace any ailing main line or freight service - certainly up to the HST era. In dire emergency a shunt engine might rescue a failed main line train , within station limits.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Were station pilots commonplace across the network, or were they only present at the major terminals?

Common - that is at any moderate station, not just terminii. you have to remember that there were parcels and perishables, like fish vans, which needed to be taken off non-passenger workings.

 

[SquireBev]

Common - that is at any moderate station, not just terminii. you have to remember that there were parcels and perishables, like fish vans, which needed to be taken off non-passenger workings.

Right, I see. Thank you. And prior to the introduction of the ubiquitous Gronks, would they have mainly been 0-6-0 tank engines? Jinties, Panniers, J72s and so on. Or would it be more varied?

 

[70014IronDuke]

.
Certain stations - Reading notably - had a spare 47 or 50 in one of the country end bays to replace any ailing main line or freight service - certainly up to the HST era. In dire emergency a shunt engine might rescue a failed main line train , within station limits.

Funny you should mention Reading, I was just about to note that larger stations, like Reading, would often have two pilots, one for each end of the station. I didn't know about the use of 47s or 50s, but in steam days, one of the Reading pilots would often be a 43xx or a Manor - capable of being drafted to rescue a failed Class1 train and get it to PAD in reasonable time.

In early diesel days, the GN also had large locomotives - typically a V2 or A3 - stationed at strategic points such as Darlington, Doncaster and Peterborough - to take over from failed diesels - but I'm not sure if these beasts were allocated pilot duties or not.
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Right, I see. Thank you. And prior to the introduction of the ubiquitous Gronks, would they have mainly been 0-6-0 tank engines? Jinties, Panniers, J72s and so on. Or would it be more varied?

Jinties were the ubiquitous pilot on the LMR (although in L&Y territory, they may have used pre-grouping tanks. J72s - yes. 57xx tanks on the GWR. On the SR they had USAs, and I think they used ageing M7s until c 1962.

Many branch services were worked pull-push, so the loco would run into a dead-end bay, but did not need to run round the train. they just reversed out. I dare say that these locos (eg the LMS 412xx and standard 840xxx tanks) were sometimes used as pilots when time allowed for their release. I remember seeing once an LTSR 3-cylinder tank being used at Bedford - I presume it was en route to or from Derby works, and was being borrowed for such duties. things were much more common user and ad hoc in those days. If a loco was needed, it would be commandeered by control.
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Thinking about it a bit more, there were really two kinds of duties we are talking about - you might call them 'light' and 'heavy' pilot duties. A Jinty or J72 would be a light pilot - it would be used to attach or detach a few vans or carriages hither and thither. I can imagine you would have two such locos on duties at stations from Perth to Plymouth.

But at big terminii, the duties were more extenuating. So, for example at Waterloo, there would be - I'd guess from memory - about 5 tanks diagrammed for ECS duties. These would be busy all day hauling ECS between Waterloo and Clapham Jcn. We are talking about trains of 11-12 carriages, so these would have been beyond a USA - from about 1963 they were normally standard 4 or 3 tanks - I don't think they trusted the Class 2 2-6-2Ts with such work. (maybe they did, I just don't remember them).

But such duties needed far more power, water and coal, than - say (guessing) - a Jinty at Nuneaton or a 57xx at Gloucester Central.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Another duty of the station pilot in GWR times was to collect the coach(es) "slipped" from non stop expresses.

If the train passed through platform road, then the guard would bring the coach to a stand in the platform. However, if the train passed through on a middle road, the guard would bring the coach to a stand at a convenient place, and the station pilot would bring it into the station. It could then be emptied, or coupled up to a branch train to go further.

I'm not old enough to have seen this in operation - the nearest I've come to it is operating a model railway which had this as part of the timetable.

 

[sprinterguy]

Another duty of the station pilot in GWR times was to collect the coach(es) "slipped" from non stop expresses.

If the train passed through platform road, then the guard would bring the coach to a stand in the platform. However, if the train passed through on a middle road, the guard would bring the coach to a stand at a convenient place, and the station pilot would bring it into the station. It could then be emptied, or coupled up to a branch train to go further.

I'm not old enough to have seen this in operation - the nearest I've come to it is operating a model railway which had this as part of the timetable.

Seeing it at work on a model railway would be quite interesting in itself: Very different rolling resistances, I would have thought, with model rolling stock compared to the 12 inches to the foot real thing.

Very interesting post, I'd never considered that coaches slipped from a train passing through a middle road would necessarily need to be collected by a pilot engine.

 

[Dai Corner]

Seeing it at work on a model railway would be quite interesting in itself: Very different rolling resistances, I would have thought, with model rolling stock compared to the 12 inches to the foot real thing.

Very interesting post, I'd never considered that coaches slipped from a train passing through a middle road would necessarily need to be collected by a pilot engine.

No doubt there were occasions when the guard misjudged his braking and the slip coach had to be rescued!

 

[EbbwJunction1]

Seeing it at work on a model railway would be quite interesting in itself: Very different rolling resistances, I would have thought, with model rolling stock compared to the 12 inches to the foot real thing.

Very interesting post, I'd never considered that coaches slipped from a train passing through a middle road would necessarily need to be collected by a pilot engine.

No doubt there were occasions when the guard misjudged his braking and the slip coach had to be rescued!

Yes, it was one of the highlights of the timetable. Unless they knew what was going to happen, people thought that we'd lost a carriage from the train - and said so! Sadly, that layout doesn't exist anymore, as it was dismantled to make way for another one quite a few years ago.

The collection of the slip coach(es) was an art in itself, I gather, and the GWR generally had it off to a fine art.

I'd have thought that if the guard misjudged his braking, he'd have been asked to see his Manager the following day!

 

[SquireBev]

How did you manage to slow the slip coach? That sounds fascinating.

 

[coppercapped]

Were station pilots commonplace across the network, or were they only present at the major terminals?

Reading always had two pilots, an Up line pilot and, wait for it, a Down line pilot. In the late 50s the Up line engine was mostly a 63XX 2-6-0 and the Down line pilot a Hall. As scrapping got underway the Up line engine was upgraded to be a Manor and the Down line engine became a Castle.
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How did you manage to slow the slip coach? That sounds fascinating.

The vacuum train pipe had self-sealing couplings so the vacuum brake continued to work. The guard lowered the vacuum to slow. There was a handbrake as well...

 

[ainsworth74]

The vacuum train pipe had self-sealing couplings so the vacuum brake continued to work. The guard lowered the vacuum to slow. There was a handbrake as well...

I think they meant the on the model railway layout not in real life

 

[essexjohn]

Unusual (and unofficial!) method of releasing loco at Cowes, Isle of Wight
http://www.semgonline.com/location/iow/cowes_02.html
Sorry, my way of making a link doesn't work. I've found this before. Where on the Forum can I see how to post links correctly?
Quote from the site-
"The run-round practice at Cowes was interesting and was made possible by the station being on a slight incline. Trains would arrive at the main (left hand) platform and pull right up to the buffer stops. The locomotive would disconnect and, when all passengers had disembarked, would propel the carriages back beyond the points where the guard would apply the handbrake. The locomotive would pull forward to the buffer stops and reverse over the points out of the station. The guard would then release the handbrake and allow the carriages to slowly move down to the buffer stops. The locomotive would then rejoin the head of the train ready for the return journey to Ryde"