TVM not offering cheapest ticket

[MancMetro]

I needed to make the journey from Hull - York leaving around midday on Friday, and returning Sunday evening. I have a 16-25 railcard. The national rail website quoted this as £16.85. However, when I went to buy the ticket at a TPE TVM at Hull station the only relevant ticket I could see displayed cost £19.60. As I was in a rush, I bought the ticket and have now used it.

Since returning I have looked again at the national rail website and figured out what happened. The price I saw quoted on there was for an Anytime return (not valid via Doncaster). However, the ticket the TVM offered was an Off-Peak return (any permitted route). Given that there is a direct Hull-York service I imagine most passengers would prefer the cheaper Anytime ticket.

I was wondering whether I'm in my right to request a refund of £2.75? If so, should I go straight to the ticket office at Hull, or will I instead need to write to TPE or Northern?

Also should I complain about the TVM, or do you think its behaviour is valid? Seems to me it will be costing a lot of passengers more money than necessary.

(As an aside I reckon this ticket must be one of the most expensive in Britain for as-the-crow-flies distance. With no railcard, the Off-Peak return is £29.70 for a crow-flies distance of around 35 miles.)

 

[AlterEgo]

TVMs are not bound to be an impartial retailing outlet so you actually have no right to the cheapest fare. It is a bit loopy!!

I'd complain, but be aware there's nothing to point to in writing which mandates you should have been sold the cheaper ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I needed to make the journey from Hull - York leaving around midday on Friday, and returning Sunday evening. I have a 16-25 railcard. The national rail website quoted this as £16.85. However, when I went to buy the ticket at a TPE TVM at Hull station the only relevant ticket I could see displayed cost £19.60. As I was in a rush, I bought the ticket and have now used it.

Train companies must comply with the new code of practice, which includes ticket vending machines (TVMs). If you think the train company did not fully comply, you should pursue the matter (if the train company who sold you the ticket does not adequately compensate you and rectify the situation for future journeys, you can refer the matter to Passenger Focus and ask the ORR to investigate a potential consumer law breach)

Since returning I have looked again at the national rail website and figured out what happened. The price I saw quoted on there was for an Anytime return (not valid via Doncaster). However, the ticket the TVM offered was an Off-Peak return (any permitted route). Given that there is a direct Hull-York service I imagine most passengers would prefer the cheaper Anytime ticket.

At the limited times the pathetic direct service runs, yes, they would.

(Anyone who requires travel via Doncaster can buy other tickets - details available at forum events or potentially via PM - to ensure a fair price)

I was wondering whether I'm in my right to request a refund of £2.75? If so, should I go straight to the ticket office at Hull, or will I instead need to write to TPE or Northern?

Hull is managed by TPE, but perhaps the machine you used was provided by Northern? I've never used a TVM at Hull so I've not looked. Some stations have TVMs provided by more than one company. Anyway, you need to write to the company who sold you the ticket. Probably TPE.

Also should I complain about the TVM, or do you think its behaviour is valid? Seems to me it will be costing a lot of passengers more money than necessary.

See the code of practice and compare that to your own experience.

(As an aside I reckon this ticket must be one of the most expensive in Britain for as-the-crow-flies distance. With no railcard, the Off-Peak return is £29.70 for a crow-flies distance of around 35 miles.)

The fares are utterly ludicrous, the journey time is poor, and nearly everyone who wants to make this journey would go by road.

I would go by bus if there were direct buses at the time I want to travel, but there are no late buses to York. If I was making the reverse journey, bus travel would be much more viable (there is a very late bus on Friday & Saturday nights from York to Hull but not from Hull to York).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TVMs are not bound to be an impartial retailing outlet....

Only if they make passengers aware that they can buy the full range elsewhere

From page 19 of the code of practice document

...the service offered at other points of sale, such as ticket vending machines, can be more limited – with train companies or third party retailers sometimes only selling a limited range of all relevant tickets, or sometimes selling only their own tickets (and sometimes only a limited range of these).

These different approaches have the potential to confuse passengers about the range of tickets being provided to them and whether they represent all the appropriate tickets for their journey or only a limited selection. This has the potential to result in them buying a less suitable and/or more expensive ticket than they need, if they are not aware that they are only being provided with a limited selection of fares.

It is therefore important that passengers are made aware of the range of fares that they may be offered at a particular point of sale and, if this is limited, that they are made aware that a more appropriate ticket may be available elsewhere and they are told where they can access a fuller selection.

If there is a suggestion that the TVMs at Hull are not impartial, then for that to be the case, there must be a notice displayed prominently on those TVMs that this is the case, and directing people to buy at the ticket office or, when closed, on the train.

If the TVMs are found not to be in compliance, with no notice to state this, a breach of consumer law is occurring every time someone is mislead.

 

[MancMetro]

Train companies must comply with the new code of practice, which includes ticket vending machines (TVMs). If you think the train company did not fully comply, you should pursue the matter (if the train company who sold you the ticket does not adequately compensate you and rectify the situation for future journeys, you can refer the matter to Passenger Focus and ask the ORR to investigate a potential consumer law breach)

Ok thanks. I'm going to Hull station later, so I'll take a photo of the TVM screen showing the available tickets. I may then write to TPE.

At the limited times the pathetic direct service runs, yes, they would.

The fares are utterly ludicrous, the journey time is poor, and nearly everyone who wants to make this journey would go by road.

I would go by bus if there were direct buses at the time I want to travel, but there are no late buses to York. If I was making the reverse journey, bus travel would be much more viable (there is a very late bus on Friday & Saturday nights from York to Hull but not from Hull to York).

To add insult to financial injury, the outbound journey I took was a 2-car Pacer with original bus seats! I did try to see the funny side as it went flat out up the ECML.

Once my railcard expires I may have to investigate the bus, but it's a shame that the train is being priced out of reach to many potential passengers. This is probably part of the reason why the passenger numbers at Hull station are poor for a city of its size.

There will at least be a full hourly service introduced during the current Northern franchise. Although this journey will never be as quick as the former Market Weighton route.

 

[hounddog]

Would local Trading Standards be interested/have any authority in such a situation now that consumer law applies in full?

 

[johntea]

I used a TVM the other day where it advised I purchased an off peak ticket despite starting the journey in (Northern) evening peak time, how have they not been programmed to take account of that when the restrictions have now been in place over 2 years?!

 

[AlterEgo]

It should be noted the linked code of practice is not mandatory, and it makes clear that it provides guidance to TOCs rather than hard and fast rules. I agree this is an unsatisfactory situation, and there remains no codified right to the cheapest fare. Consumer law would apply here, though IANAL.

 

[yorkie]

It should be noted the linked code of practice is not mandatory, and it makes clear that it provides guidance to TOCs rather than hard and fast rules. I agree this is an unsatisfactory situation, and there remains no codified right to the cheapest fare. Consumer law would apply here, though IANAL.

The 'guidance' is to ensure compliance with consumer law.

It would be unwise for train companies to risk non-compliance.

 

[AlterEgo]

The 'guidance' is to ensure compliance with consumer law.

It would be unwise for train companies to risk non-compliance.

Agreed.

 

[MancMetro]

I contacted TPE about this, and have just received their reply which I've posted below.

I think what they've said is incorrect. I would not call an anytime return an advance ticket. This is the second time in a row where a train company has not addressed the question I asked.

So I guess they are in breach of the code of practice.

I am very sorry for the delayed response; this is due to a new system being used which has caused a backlog to our department. We are working extremely hard to work through this.

Thank you for getting in touch regarding your recent ticket purchase. I was very sorry to learn of the difficulties you encountered when using the Self Service Ticket Machine at Hull station.

We want to make it as easy as possible for people to buy tickets and clearly on this occasion we let you down. We always aim to investigate any problems with Self Service Ticket Machines whenever we are notified, so I appreciate your comments.

Unfortunately, the ticket’s you were looking at on the National Rail website, was an advanced ticket which means they are cheaper to buy in advance to your journey. When you arrive at the station and use the TVM it will give you the next available tickets for the journey today and these are more expensive. I am sorry for the inconvenience this must have caused.

If you have any other problems regarding purchasing tickets, we have a live webchat on our website where you can talk to one of our colleagues and they can guide you through this process.

Thank you for using TransPennine Express.

 

[gray1404]

Write back to them again and explain why you are unhappy with their reply. Again, repeat that you would like a refund for the difference in fare and point out that your ticket was not an Advance ticket.

If they still to not give a helpful reply, then take the matter to Transport Focus.

 

[pdq]

That paragraph starting 'Unfortunately' is appalling for an official letter: incorrect punctuation and grammar throughout.

 

[centraltrains]

Withdrawn.

 

[Merseysider]

I contacted TPE about this, and have just received their reply which I've posted below.

I think what they've said is incorrect. I would not call an anytime return an advance ticket. This is the second time in a row where a train company has not addressed the question I asked.

So I guess they are in breach of the code of practice.

What an absolutely moronic reply

You're entitled to a refund of the difference and I'd echo gray1404's advice above.

TPE's customer services have become increasingly crap lately and have a convenient habit of 'forgetting' to reply to correspondence where they owe money so make sure it's followed up. I'd also ask them to confirm that buying on board is fine when the full range isn't available from the station.

 

[yorkie]

Report a breach to the ORR and escalate the case to Transport Focus.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The 'guidance' is to ensure compliance with consumer law.

It would be unwise for train companies to risk non-compliance.

Out of interest, what part of consumer law is this intended to ensure compliance with? If I buy something at a shop, the shop is under no obligation to tell me that I could have bought the same product more cheaply on the website/at the shop next door/etc., which seems to be the closest comparison I can think of.

(I don't disagree that the TVM not showing the cheapest ticket seems unethical to say the least, and if there is any rule forcing them to give a refund, then I'd certainly be pursuing it if it was me. But I'm struggling to see how it's against more general consumer law?)

 

[Hadders]

I contacted TPE about this, and have just received their reply which I've posted below.

I think what they've said is incorrect. I would not call an anytime return an advance ticket. This is the second time in a row where a train company has not addressed the question I asked.

So I guess they are in breach of the code of practice.

What an awful response from TPE. I'd certainly escalate this and if anyone senior from TPE is reading this thread I suggest they arrange for a proper response to be sent.

 

[talldave]

That paragraph starting 'Unfortunately' is appalling for an official letter: incorrect punctuation and grammar throughout.

I suspect that that's the only paragraph written by the customer services representative in answer to the question (or not, as it turns out!). The rest of the reply is generic cut & paste.

 

[MancMetro]

Thanks for your responses. What is so annoying about it is that 62 days after my original complaint (when I'd actually forgotten all about it due to the wait) they have basically told me I'm wrong, and so will not be fixing the problem.

It is similar to a recent complaint I made to CrossCountry about their Voyager seating plan having mistakes in it. Despite me pointing out the mistakes and how they could be fixed, they simply apologised for the journey and made no reference to the seating plan, which consequently is still incorrect today. It makes having a complaints process a bit pointless if you're not going to fix things that are pointed out as being incorrect.

I didn't ask for the £2.75 back in my complaint given that it's only a small amount of money. But if customers are frequently being charged this much extra because the anytime return (which the national rail website recommends) is not being offered by the TVM, then I think it's something they should fix.

I was thinking about escalating the complaint, but somebody apparently from TPE has contacted me to say they will take another look, so I will see how that goes.

 

[crosscity]

I didn't ask for the £2.75 back in my complaint given that it's only a small amount of money. But if customers are frequently being charged this much extra because the anytime return (which the national rail website recommends) is not being offered by the TVM, then I think it's something they should fix.

I was thinking about escalating the complaint, but somebody apparently from TPE has contacted me to say they will take another look, so I will see how that goes.

Whether it's a small amount of money or not it's still yours that they've taken. It's clear you want to get the principle across rather than your loss. I would have mentioned it and suggested it was donated to charity.

 

[PeterC]

Out of interest, what part of consumer law is this intended to ensure compliance with? If I buy something at a shop, the shop is under no obligation to tell me that I could have bought the same product more cheaply on the website/at the shop next door/etc., which seems to be the closest comparison I can think of.

(I don't disagree that the TVM not showing the cheapest ticket seems unethical to say the least, and if there is any rule forcing them to give a refund, then I'd certainly be pursuing it if it was me. But I'm struggling to see how it's against more general consumer law?)

I think that your shop comparison is more like asking for brand A and not being told that brand B is cheaper. Still not something that a shop is required to do.

If I read the thread correctly the TVM sold the cheapest "any permitted route" ticket. That, in my view, is the acceptible base functionality.

 

[MancMetro]

I think that your shop comparison is more like asking for brand A and not being told that brand B is cheaper. Still not something that a shop is required to do.

If I read the thread correctly the TVM sold the cheapest "any permitted route" ticket. That, in my view, is the acceptible base functionality.

It's about the TVM giving the customer the choice. If on the National Rail website you search for a Hull-York return ticket (returning at a later date), most of the tickets displayed are £26.00 Anytime return tickets. These are all applicable to the direct service (which will soon become hourly).

There are a few Off-Peak tickets displayed for a route via Doncaster at £30.20. This journey takes longer, and requires a change of train.

The TVM only presents the £30.20 Off-Peak ticket. I think it should present both, but for the majority of passengers who will be intending to use the direct service, the cheaper Anytime ticket is most suitable.

 

[gray1404]

I was thinking about escalating the complaint, but somebody apparently from TPE has contacted me to say they will take another look, so I will see how that goes.

So somebody from TPE contacted you as a result of you making this posting on the forum? i.e. you have NOT contacted them of your own accord to request this.

 

[MancMetro]

So somebody from TPE contacted you as a result of you making this posting on the forum? i.e. you have NOT contacted them of your own accord to request this.

Yes, that has happened since my update post on Friday. I guess TOC staff read these forums like the rest of us.

 

[Clip]

Yes, that has happened since my update post on Friday. I guess TOC staff read these forums like the rest of us.

Yes they do = from lots of different departments too.

 

[MancMetro]

Someone at TPE took another look at the case, and the matter's now been resolved. I've checked the TVM and they've added the anytime return ticket as a 'Anytime Short Distance Return' alongside the 'Off-Peak Return'. They also refunded my £2.75.

So fair play to TPE, once I got through to someone it was no trouble. I guess like a lot of companies they get so many complaints that they set up a 'firewall' of generic automated responses to deal with the load. I can think of a few other 'quick fix' complaints I've made in the past to other TOCs which unfortunately never made it past the firewall.