Two additional tracks to be built into Leeds station from the West?

[Chris125]

Moderator note: Split from

Transpennine Route Upgrade and Electrification updates

Well it was suggested in the Manchester - Liverpool Electrification thread that we have a seperate Transpennine thread. Now I know that Manchester - Stalybridge is actually part of the Northern Hub project , but to me, haulage bashing Peaks in the 1970s-1980s - Liverpool-Newcastle was classed as...

www.railforums.co.uk

Intriguing post on Skyscrapercity - any truth in Network Rail being interested in the Globe Road development site for two extra tracks approaching Leeds from the west? That's the large cleared area north of the triangle.

I gather Network Rail have acquired this site from Get Living or are in the process of taking it on for the Trans Pennine Rail Upgrade project. Two additional tracks will be added on the approach lines to Leeds City Station.

Globe Road | 72m | 23, 18, 14, 14, 9, 8, 8 fl |...

I am i small time investor from Northampton (originally born in Leeds). I have just put a deposit down on a 1 bedroom apartment in Pioneer Reach due for completion in 2008 with guaranteed rent for 2 yeasr (with funriture pack). I did feel this was a good investment longterm ie 2012 onwards once...

www.skyscrapercity.com

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Interesting if this is confirmed as true. Extra capacity at that pinch point would indeed be useful.

 

[Geeves]

It would mean the trains on the triangle and stations north could be run virtually independently especially with a new depot going up at Shipley, of course that means trains from Bradford and Wakefield would also get a clear run.

I don't know if it comes under the TRU but works at Darlington are also coming on well with a new platform situated outside the current train shed. There's also slot of work between York and Newcastle generally of what I don't know!

 

[YorksLad12]

Intriguing post on Skyscrapercity - any truth in Network Rail being interested in the Globe Road development site for two extra tracks approaching Leeds from the west? That's the large cleared area north of the triangle.

Globe Road | 72m | 23, 18, 14, 14, 9, 8, 8 fl |...

I am i small time investor from Northampton (originally born in Leeds). I have just put a deposit down on a 1 bedroom apartment in Pioneer Reach due for completion in 2008 with guaranteed rent for 2 yeasr (with funriture pack). I did feel this was a good investment longterm ie 2012 onwards once...

www.skyscrapercity.com

Perhaps they want the site for a few years to build a cabin village, rather than extend the viaduct outwards and build new track. Hopefully both, of course

 

[skyhigh]

Intriguing post on Skyscrapercity - any truth in Network Rail being interested in the Globe Road development site for two extra tracks approaching Leeds from the west? That's the large cleared area north of the triangle.

Globe Road | 72m | 23, 18, 14, 14, 9, 8, 8 fl |...

I am i small time investor from Northampton (originally born in Leeds). I have just put a deposit down on a 1 bedroom apartment in Pioneer Reach due for completion in 2008 with guaranteed rent for 2 yeasr (with funriture pack). I did feel this was a good investment longterm ie 2012 onwards once...

www.skyscrapercity.com

It wouldn't surprise me - Network Rail have some fairly major plans for Leeds. They have bought the Princes Exchange office block next to the station, with staff moving there from the current location in the admin block above the station. The admin block is getting demolished with a reconfiguration of the main concourse (Boots is going, so the bottleneck of the corner past the ticket office can be removed).

Platform 17 is also being extended with a new 'G' line planned out of the West end of the station. I suppose it's possible the plan is to shift A-F lines across to make room for G.

 

[Backroom_boy]

The proposal GNER made years back for the 'Leeds horseshoe' so IC trains could use it as a through station hasn't been picked up by anyone else; is that worth looking at again especially if TRU has done most of the electricification needed?

 

[YorkshireBear]

The proposal GNER made years back for the 'Leeds horseshoe' so IC trains could use it as a through station hasn't been picked up by anyone else; is that worth looking at again especially if TRU has done most of the electricification needed?

Capacity east of Leeds would always be the stumbling block there I think.

It wouldn't surprise me - Network Rail have some fairly major plans for Leeds. They have bought the Princes Exchange office block next to the station, with staff moving there from the current location in the admin block above the station. The admin block is getting demolished with a reconfiguration of the main concourse (Boots is going, so the bottleneck of the corner past the ticket office can be removed).

Platform 17 is also being extended with a new 'G' line planned out of the West end of the station. I suppose it's possible the plan is to shift A-F lines across to make room for G.

Even without extra platforms it would give you a lot of extra flexibility to reduce congestion on approaches. Ambitious is definitely how I would describe plans for Leeds but they have to be.

 

[JordR]

The proposal GNER made years back for the 'Leeds horseshoe' so IC trains could use it as a through station hasn't been picked up by anyone else; is that worth looking at again especially if TRU has done most of the electricification needed?

What was the idea?

 

[dodecahedron67]

What was the idea?

Trains would run via Garforth and Hambleton West + South Jns to access the ECML selby diversion to head back down to London rather than via Wakefield Westgate

 

[Bald Rick]

Trains would run via Garforth and Hambleton West + South Jns to access the ECML selby diversion to head back down to London rather than via Wakefield Westgate

Or vice versa!

 

[Meerkat]

It wouldn't surprise me - Network Rail have some fairly major plans for Leeds. They have bought the Princes Exchange office block next to the station, with staff moving there from the current location in the admin block above the station. The admin block is getting demolished with a reconfiguration of the main concourse (Boots is going, so the bottleneck of the corner past the ticket office can be removed).

Platform 17 is also being extended with a new 'G' line planned out of the West end of the station. I suppose it's possible the plan is to shift A-F lines across to make room for G.

Wasn’t Princes Exchange the one that was causing problems before by insisting their car park couldn’t be used for more platforms? Buying it to control that space? Could fit four more platforms there……
Tying extra lines in would mean rebuilding the west end junctions again.

 

[Ploughman]

There was the 1990's plan to cantilever out from the viaduct adding 1 possibly 2 additional tracks, but someone sold the land off and let building block the route.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Capacity east of Leeds would always be the stumbling block there I think

I wonder if GNER had addressed that or if they were in professional crayonista mode?

 

[Richard123]

What was the idea?

Saved a full train diagram and associated staffing through eliminating layovers. That's like 10% efficiency improvement on the route. Short KGX-LDS runs became efficient KGX-LDS-KGX runs.

Freed up a platform for most of the day.

Slight reduction in journey times.

Opened up a new affluent market through a parkway station near motorways.

It paid for itself comfortably, but GNER folded.

 

[Richard123]

I wonder if GNER had addressed that or if they were in professional crayonista mode?

GNER had a full timetable, but it was a long time ago. Amazingly the electrification they funded would have extended to Selby by both routes.

I struggle to see the capacity constraint if the service works today with all-stop diesels. Their replacement with electric alone must free up a path an hour? (I think two trains were to take the horseshoe, in opposite directions, with one conventional to make 3tph).

The wakefield westgate corridor is surely more constrained?

 

[Bald Rick]

GNER had a full timetable, but it was a long time ago. Amazingly the electrification they funded would have extended to Selby by both routes.

I struggle to see the capacity constraint if the service works today with all-stop diesels. Their replacement with electric alone must free up a path an hour? (I think two trains were to take the horseshoe, in opposite directions, with one conventional to make 3tph).

The wakefield westgate corridor is surely more constrained?

As I recall it, it was going to be a second Leeds service per hour (thete being on,y one an hour back then).

 

[YorkshireBear]

GNER had a full timetable, but it was a long time ago. Amazingly the electrification they funded would have extended to Selby by both routes.

I struggle to see the capacity constraint if the service works today with all-stop diesels. Their replacement with electric alone must free up a path an hour? (I think two trains were to take the horseshoe, in opposite directions, with one conventional to make 3tph).

The wakefield westgate corridor is surely more constrained?

Westgate route has 3 expresses and 3 stoppers per hour (I include the semi fast Knottingley as a stopper due to it blocking the junction going to and from kirkgate).

Cross Gates has 5 express, 1 semi fast, 2 stoppers per hour. Plus all movements to and from Neville Hill the last being a real killer. Of those services TRU will only turn four of the expresses electric and one of the stoppers. Might gain a path, but not sure LNER is where the project envisages that path going.

 

[may032]

Westgate route has 3 expresses and 3 stoppers per hour (I include the semi fast Knottingley as a stopper due to it blocking the junction going to and from kirkgate).

Cross Gates has 5 express, 1 semi fast, 2 stoppers per hour. Plus all movements to and from Neville Hill the last being a real killer. Of those services TRU will only turn four of the expresses electric and one of the stoppers. Might gain a path, but not sure LNER is where the project envisages that path going.

I imagine most Leeds-based passengers would prefer that path be kept free to improve reliability rather than used to provide extra services.

 

[Old Rick]

Saved a full train diagram and associated staffing through eliminating layovers. That's like 10% efficiency improvement on the route. Short KGX-LDS runs became efficient KGX-LDS-KGX runs.

Freed up a platform for most of the day.

Slight reduction in journey times.

Opened up a new affluent market through a parkway station near motorways.

It paid for itself comfortably, but GNER folded.

First post after many years watching

As I recall it from the darkest recesses of my memory, the Hambleton route was not suggested as a circular route, as this would have resulted in routine reversal of the configuration south of Leeds.

It was suggested in HST days, firstly for KGX - Harrogate, which has to cross almost right across the western throat (worse southbound than northbound) and involves reversal. The eastern approach and departure would reduce this conflict and platform dwell time.

The idea was later extended to include the Bradford FS service when that was reinstated, which may have been part of the trigger to consider electrification

 

[yorksrob]

Platform 17 is also being extended with a new 'G' line planned out of the West end of the station. I suppose it's possible the plan is to shift A-F lines across to make room for G.

That's certainly overdue !

 

[duffield]

It wouldn't surprise me - Network Rail have some fairly major plans for Leeds. They have bought the Princes Exchange office block next to the station, with staff moving there from the current location in the admin block above the station. The admin block is getting demolished with a reconfiguration of the main concourse (Boots is going, so the bottleneck of the corner past the ticket office can be removed).

Platform 17 is also being extended with a new 'G' line planned out of the West end of the station. I suppose it's possible the plan is to shift A-F lines across to make room for G.

When you say that platform 17 *is* being extended, do you mean there's actually a committed budget, and a timescale? Because it's been talked about for years yet somehow it always seems to get deferred.

 

[Halish Railway]

I do wonder whether it’s possible to create one or two additional tracks between Holbeck Junction and Whitehall Junction so that services from Bradford Interchange don’t interact with services from Wakefield Westgate and can be fed more easily into the new/existing lower numbered bay platforms, providing that additional tracks on the north of the station approach can be built.

Yes, at the moment there are only two trains per hour from the Bradford Interchange direction that terminate at Leeds, but they often sit in the limited number of through platforms and higher numbered bay platforms for over half an hour which limit the length of these trains to four carriages and could be used for other services.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

First post after many years watching

As I recall it from the darkest recesses of my memory, the Hambleton route was not suggested as a circular route, as this would have resulted in routine reversal of the configuration south of Leeds

Welcome to the forum.

 

[JordR]

Opened up a new affluent market through a parkway station near motorways.

Really interesting! Where was this station planned to be?

 

[Richard123]

Westgate route has 3 expresses and 3 stoppers per hour (I include the semi fast Knottingley as a stopper due to it blocking the junction going to and from kirkgate).

Cross Gates has 5 express, 1 semi fast, 2 stoppers per hour. Plus all movements to and from Neville Hill the last being a real killer. Of those services TRU will only turn four of the expresses electric and one of the stoppers. Might gain a path, but not sure LNER is where the project envisages that path going.

Thank you for the facts that put my recollection of capacity issues on the Wakefield route into context!

 

[modernrail]

Thank you for the facts that put my recollection of capacity issues on the Wakefield route into context!

One question I have always had on this. Has capacity always been limited to 2 tracks leaving Leeds to the East or were there additional tracks leading East from now closed stations?

It seems like it has been a significant bottleneck since the railway began?

Over in Manchester there is the now notorious 2 track Castlefield stretch, but there is also the parallel route through Victoria and lots of trains from the west would have terminated in the old Manchester Central (and Exchange). Did trains from the East always need to run into what is now the current station?

 

[may032]

One question I have always had on this. Has capacity always been limited to 2 tracks leaving Leeds to the East or were there additional tracks leading East from now closed stations?

It seems like it has been a significant bottleneck since the railway began?

Over in Manchester there is the now notorious 2 track Castlefield stretch, but there is also the parallel route through Victoria and lots of trains from the west would have terminated in the old Manchester Central (and Exchange). Did trains from the East always need to run into what is now the current station?

I can’t see any disused routes to the east of Leeds station on OpenRailwayMap, and the viaducts are two track, so I think it’s always been a constraint there.

 

[Ken H]

I can’t see any disused routes to the east of Leeds station on OpenRailwayMap, and the viaducts are two track, so I think it’s always been a constraint there.

Trains from Leeds to the North East (Darlington, Durham, Newcastle) went from Leeds Central and went via Horsforth, Harrogate, Ripon and joined the Current East Coast line well north of York So if Harrogate - Northallerton were extant today it would relieve Leeds - York via Church Fenton.

 

[may032]

Trains from Leeds to the North East (Darlington, Durham, Newcastle) went from Leeds Central and went via Horsforth, Harrogate, Ripon and joined the Current East Coast line well north of York So if Harrogate - Northallerton were extant today it would relieve Leeds - York via Church Fenton.

That’s interesting, thanks

 

[Ben427]

Trains from Leeds to the North East (Darlington, Durham, Newcastle) went from Leeds Central and went via Horsforth, Harrogate, Ripon and joined the Current East Coast line well north of York So if Harrogate - Northallerton were extant today it would relieve Leeds - York via Church Fenton.

But there's not exactly alot of capacity Leeds-Harrogate

When you say that platform 17 *is* being extended, do you mean there's actually a committed budget, and a timescale? Because it's been talked about for years yet somehow it always seems to get deferred.

Yes there's a committed budget (part funded by the combined authority)