Two freight trains tailgating at Westbury this evening (05/08/2024)

[brad465]

As per the title, while I happened to be changing at Westbury this evening (from Warminster-Taunton), I watched two double headed freight trains in the loop on the east side of the station, both appeared to be destined for Whatley Quarry. The first one left just after 20:00, where soon after pulling away, the train behind it started moving as well and followed it until it reached the red signal at the end of the loop (that was green for the first train).

I know procedures exist for two trains to occupy the same signal block at the same time, such as station platforms, but this is the first time I can recall two trains moving simultaneously within the same block. Is there a special procedure for this?

These are what appear to be the two trains in question:

Realtime Trains | 6C66 2010½ Westbury Down T.C. to Whatley Quarry | 05/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 6C66 2010½ departure from Westbury Down T.C. to Whatley Quarry on 05/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 6V60 1443 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Whatley Quarry F Liner Hh | 05/08/2024

Real-time train running information for 6V60 1443 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Whatley Quarry F Liner Hh on 05/08/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It maybe worth mentioning that there was some disruption in the area after a train fault cancelled the Newquay-Paddington train that didn't move for 45 minutes from P3, an empty Class 158 was sat in P1 for a while, plus the Paddington-Frome skipped Westbury entirely on the avoiding line.

 

[skyhigh]

Perfectly normal permissive working, as outlined in rule book module TW1:

20.4 Following another train which is moving on a permissive-worked line
driver

When it is permitted to drive a train towards the rear of another train which is moving forward, you must:

-proceed at caution

-keep sufficient distance from the train in front to prevent your train colliding with that train in case it stops

-not pass a signal which has been cleared for the train in front until the signal has been returned to danger and then cleared again.

Suggesting it was tailgating (which to me suggests driving dangerously close behind another vehicle) on a public forum seems inappropriate, to me at least.

And just for completeness, permissive working is defined as:

20.1 Definition
Permissive working allows a second train to be signalled onto a running line that is already occupied so that more than one train at a time can be on the same line in a:
-block section
-signal section
-dead-end platform line.

 

[Purple Train]

Suggesting it was tailgating (which to me suggests driving dangerously close behind another vehicle) on a public forum seems inappropriate, to me at least.

To a layman who isn't particularly knowledgeable on permissive working, and who is used to the principle of one train at a time in a block, it definitely feels pretty unsettling! Obviously it isn't an appropriate comparison in light of this, and I'm sure the OP didn't intend it to be taken too literally, but I can see how it would be perceived as such - I would have been just the same before reading this thread!

Is it normal practice into freight loops, then? I knew it was fairly widespread at depots and sidings, and about calling-on at stations, but never come across it in what you might call a "main line" setting.

 

[800001]

Most likely one of the trains that runs from Wembley to Westbury as 2 trains formed into 1, with locos at front and wagons, then the 2nd train coupled on behind.
At Westbury the train will split into 3 for the journey to the quarry as it would not be able to handle the length of 2 trains joined together.

This saves path and crew of running 2 trains from London.

 

[Adrian Barr]

I've never noticed it before, but the sectional appendix has codes for the permissive working on each line. The Down Reception shows as PF and platforms 1/2/3 as PP, which match the codes listed here:
https://www.simsig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:glossary:permissive_wrkg

I've seen some examples of permissive working in old YouTube videos where one train is entering a platform as another leaves. It does look a bit odd when you aren't expecting it, and I think in British Railways days there wasn't quite the same style of defensive driving which makes it look more dramatic.

It used to be very common in the days of loco-hauled trains for the loco "on the blocks" to follow closely behind a departing passenger train as far as the signal at the end of the platform, which is a similar situation to the one you are describing with the freight trains.

 

[Parham Wood]

Such working was very common on freight lines in the days of steam and a bit later. Some lines could have three or more trains queueing to move forward. It was an efficient way of holding freight trains clear of the main line until a path for them could be found.

 

[contrex]

When I was a small boy going with my parents to visit Granny in Derby from around 1956 onwards, I was interested to see that the tank locos that brought empty stock into St Pancras (running bunker first), when uncoupled, used to follow the departing train out of the platform. This was pretty normal, I think?

 

[ExRes]

It used to be very common in the days of loco-hauled trains for the loco "on the blocks" to follow closely behind a departing passenger train as far as the signal at the end of the platform, which is a similar situation to the one you are describing with the freight trains.

Which is exactly what we did into the late 90s with, particularly, Mail Trains at Paddington, heaven help you if you tried it at Victoria though, very much a local agreement

 

[brad465]

Perfectly normal permissive working, as outlined in rule book module TW1:

Suggesting it was tailgating (which to me suggests driving dangerously close behind another vehicle) on a public forum seems inappropriate, to me at least.

And just for completeness, permissive working is defined as:

I apologise if the term caused offence, I'm not as familiar with railway jargon as anyone who works on the railway.

Most likely one of the trains that runs from Wembley to Westbury as 2 trains formed into 1, with locos at front and wagons, then the 2nd train coupled on behind.
At Westbury the train will split into 3 for the journey to the quarry as it would not be able to handle the length of 2 trains joined together.

This saves path and crew of running 2 trains from London.

One of the above diagrams is shown as starting from Westbury, so that is possible, although that would mean 2x Class 66 diesels formed part of the longer train in the middle of the consist for the journey as far as Westbury, as I cannot see how else they got there to form the second diagram.

 

[Strathclyder]

When I was a small boy going with my parents to visit Granny in Derby from around 1956 onwards, I was interested to see that the tank locos that brought empty stock into St Pancras (running bunker first), when uncoupled, used to follow the departing train out of the platform. This was pretty normal, I think?

Yep, happened frequently at the major termini that didn't have run-round loops, before units and push-pull working (DVTs, DBSOs etc) took over most regional/intercity services; the loco that brought the train in would follow the train back out as far as the signal at the end of the platform. You can see it happening here in this October 1986 video of Glasgow Central by YT's spompeytransportvideos (timestamped link below):

 

[Adrian Barr]

One of the above diagrams is shown as starting from Westbury

Delving into this a bit more, that 6C66 is of interest as it was a delivery of 34 brand new HOA wagons for Mendip Rail, part of the order discussed in this VTG newsletter: https://uk.vtg.com/fileadmin/uk/documents/newsletter/VTG_Online_Summer_2023_Edition_No.41.pdf

Those 34 wagons were hauled by GBRF as 6Z66 05:36 Dollands Moor to Wembley that morning.
DB Cargo then hauled them as 6Z10 14:10 Wembley - Westbury behind 66120, seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/192176924@N02/53904805868/
The loco was swapped at Westbury and the wagons continued to Whatley as 6C66 behind Freightliner 59101, seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/53904719634/

6V60 (a through working of empties from Wembley to Whatley) was running late and recessed at Westbury while 6Z10/6C66 was there, resulting in two trains on the Down Reception at the same time.
Steven Clements also captured 6V60 on camera: https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/53904365486/

 

[brad465]

Delving into this a bit more, that 6C66 is of interest as it was a delivery of 34 brand new HOA wagons for Mendip Rail, part of the order discussed in this VTG newsletter: https://uk.vtg.com/fileadmin/uk/documents/newsletter/VTG_Online_Summer_2023_Edition_No.41.pdf

The front train did consist of only dark blue wagons that looked freshly painted, in contrast to the second train which was the classic Hanson grey wagons.

 

[Class93]

To a layman who isn't particularly knowledgeable on permissive working, and who is used to the principle of one train at a time in a block, it definitely feels pretty unsettling! Obviously it isn't an appropriate comparison in light of this, and I'm sure the OP didn't intend it to be taken too literally, but I can see how it would be perceived as such - I would have been just the same before reading this thread!

Is it normal practice into freight loops, then? I knew it was fairly widespread at depots and sidings, and about calling-on at stations, but never come across it in what you might call a "main line" setting.

OP, FWIW I have no idea why people are taking offence at this. Tailgaiting means following someone closely through (which they were) and I don’t see how there is an assumption of inappropriateness here.

 

[Starmill]

OP, FWIW I have no idea why people are taking offence at this. Tailgaiting means following someone closely through (which they were) and I don’t see how there is an assumption of inappropriateness here.

Probably because some people are familiar with it in the context of the Highway Code, which notes:

Tailgating is where the gap between you and the vehicle in front is too small for you to be able to stop safely if the vehicle in front suddenly brakes.

Tailgating is dangerous, intimidating and can cause collisions, especially when driving at speed.

Driving a road vehicle in the manner described by the Highway Code may also be an offence. Of course, the OP's description doesn't actually match that, because the trains were moving very slowly and they would very likely have had sufficient time to stop short. A more general definition of the word is sometimes used.

 

[anthonyw2698]

Most likely one of the trains that runs from Wembley to Westbury as 2 trains formed into 1, with locos at front and wagons, then the 2nd train coupled on behind.
At Westbury the train will split into 3 for the journey to the quarry as it would not be able to handle the length of 2 trains joined together.

This saves path and crew of running 2 trains from London.

All empty jumbo trains are formed at Wembley and split at the respective Quarry.

It would be very out of course to split jumbos at Westbury and has only been done a handful of times at Westbury for FL.

DCR have sent jumbo trains into Whatley which were formed at Westbury, loaded then sent back down to Westbury to split.

 

[Dave W]

Yep, happened frequently at the major termini that didn't have run-round loops

Somewhere in my mind - and probably in a document somewhere on the Internet - is an understanding that not only was it locally agreed at Euston but there was actually a written instruction on what to do if a loco on the blocks didn't follow the train out of the platform, that being so to avoid the risk of the loco moving several minutes later after a train had been signalled in. The departing train otherwise protecting the light engine movement to the starting signal (although not sure it was described like that).

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Most likely one of the trains that runs from Wembley to Westbury as 2 trains formed into 1, with locos at front and wagons, then the 2nd train coupled on behind.
At Westbury the train will split into 3 for the journey to the quarry as it would not be able to handle the length of 2 trains joined together.

This saves path and crew of running 2 trains from London.

Freightliner do this but only for the cross-London section (which from memory is from Wembley to Hanwell.) The loco for the second train is essentially in the middle of the Jumbo formation.

 

[156444]

Freightliner do this but only for the cross-London section (which from memory is from Wembley to Hanwell.) The loco for the second train is essentially in the middle of the Jumbo formation.

Fairly sure they run some trains like this all the way to Westbury. Or at the very least they did, as I've seen trains with locos in the middle passing through Reading.

 

[randyrippley]

Got me thinking of what my father said about trains during WW2, he reckoned on the local Taunton-Yeovil line there would be armaments trains stacked pretty much nose-to-tail at times within sections, even on single track. I presume the same must have happened elsewhere, though I'll bet it's not documented - certainly not by camera! Must have been interesting to control.

 

[ac6000cw]

Fairly sure they run some trains like this all the way to Westbury. Or at the very least they did, as I've seen trains with locos in the middle passing through Reading.

Not just on the routes to Somerset either - I was near Peak Forest (Derbyshire) recently and one of the empty FL workings back to the quarries was a 'double' from Wembley with a (shut down) 66 in the middle.

Are some of the loaded workings from Somerset now using double-headed 66's, which then split in the London area with one 66 taking a part forward (and then join back up as empties to return west)?

 

[Undaunted]

Somewhere in my mind - and probably in a document somewhere on the Internet - is an understanding that not only was it locally agreed at Euston but there was actually a written instruction on what to do if a loco on the blocks didn't follow the train out of the platform, that being so to avoid the risk of the loco moving several minutes later after a train had been signalled in. The departing train otherwise protecting the light engine movement to the starting signal (although not sure it was described like that).

The practice of the loco on the blocks following immediately behind the departing train as far as the platform starting signal was common elsewhere at places such as Waterloo. A locomotive left on the blocks is a bit of a nuisance, with an incoming train only being able to arrive on a subsidiary signal and at even lower speed than normal. If the loco on the blocks did not immediately follow the outgoing train, drivers were forbidden to move it until they had contacted the signaller and received permission. This was to avoid the very scenario you describe...two 'trains' moving towards each other in the same block.

 

[chipbury]

Photo's below of 59103 in the middle of a train at Westbury (returning to one of the quarries).

 

[dk1]

I think that just seeing the phrase ‘tailgating’ for UK rail operations made me cringe so much it’s taken me until now to peek at this thread.

 

[Irascible]

When I was a small boy going with my parents to visit Granny in Derby from around 1956 onwards, I was interested to see that the tank locos that brought empty stock into St Pancras (running bunker first), when uncoupled, used to follow the departing train out of the platform. This was pretty normal, I think?

Yes, not just when the stock had come in ECS but just turning around, too. Occasionally the blocks-end locomotive would give the train a push to help get it rolling, saw that a couple of times, but not sure if that was in the books...

 

[Somewhere]

I think that just seeing the phrase ‘tailgating’ for UK rail operations made me cringe so much it’s taken me until now to peek at this thread.

'Following' would be a better word, unless one is six feet behind the other travelling at 70mph

 

[Snow1964]

Somewhere in my mind - and probably in a document somewhere on the Internet - is an understanding that not only was it locally agreed at Euston but there was actually a written instruction on what to do if a loco on the blocks didn't follow the train out of the platform, that being so to avoid the risk of the loco moving several minutes later after a train had been signalled in. The departing train otherwise protecting the light engine movement to the starting signal (although not sure it was described like that).

Yes, if it didn't follow the departing train promptly, wasn't supposed to move later (without checking with signalman) to avoid meeting an incoming train

However the next train into the platform could not be signalled in (with yellow) as platform partly occupied. The arriving train driver would only get subsidiary signal, but had to proceed at caution not knowing what was there. Single loco, maybe 2 locos, or even a replatformed 4car emu etc

 

[Western Sunset]

Might be just when I've been around, but the "dead loco" in the middle seems to have been replaced by more double-headers...

In Hanwell Bridge Loop, the leading loco comes off and draws forward into the headshunt. The second loco then departs with the front portion of the train. The leading loco then backs onto the rear portion and departs with its load.

 

[D6975]

Fairly sure they run some trains like this all the way to Westbury. Or at the very least they did, as I've seen trains with locos in the middle passing through Reading.

They do. I've taken photos of them in the Great Cheverall area.