Two 'Two Together Railcard' for 3 people - not valid?

[jrh2254]

I tried booking online today and the error message said :
"Sorry, this railcard is not valid for the selected number of passengers"

Why is this?

3 passengers:
1. Husband
2. Wife
3. Son

Husband and wife have a 2 together railcard
Husband and son have a 2 together railcard

Why does this not work? I am travelling with my two together partners?

Thanks.

 

[island]

It's a Two Together Railcard, not Three Together. The clue is in the name.

Use GroupSave if you're travelling on a TOC that supports it; otherwise one of you will need to pay the normal price.

 

[N Levers]

Buy tickets from machine first and argue with guards later...

 

[orpine]

I think that's quite clever. I'd argue you are traveling two together - in two pairs.

My brief reading of the T&C's - http://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/ - shows only:

"Both named cardholders must be travelling together to enable discounted tickets to be used."

Which you will be, so personally I'd say yes, do it.

 

[Romilly]

Just from reading the terms and conditions, I would tend to agree with Orpine but, unfortunately, like the OP I cannot seem to find a way of buying online.

 

[lyesbkz]

This has been discussed previously on this forum, although no consensus seems to have been reached.

 

[bb21]

The practical problem is that you cannot buy three tickets with 2GETH discounts.

 

[najaB]

The practical problem is that you cannot buy three tickets with 2GETH discounts.

Certainly not online. In the last thread it was said that it is possible with Avantix.

 

[yorkie]

I think, if you can get the tickets issued, it should be considered valid as I can't see anything to say otherwise.

 

[westv]

Pesumably one person can't make use of two TT railcards at the same time so wouldn't that mean one of the three wouldn't be in a pair?

 

[gazthomas]

Pesumably one person can't make use of two TT railcards at the same time so wouldn't that mean one of the three wouldn't be in a pair?

That's my thinking. My assumption is that there must be tickets for each person per railcard

 

[Delta558]

That's my thinking. My assumption is that there must be tickets for each person per railcard

Agreed - as a guard who really tries to make sure that the best / cheapest / most appropriate ticket is issued, checking the combination originally suggested I'd think they were taking the P. My understanding is that only one railcard discount can be applied to a ticket: this suggestion applies two railcard discounts to at least one ticket in practise, if not in monetary terms.

 

[yorkie]

There is only one discount per ticket and all passengers appear to be compliant with the terms.

 

[Haywain]

I disagree. There is, in this case, a clear requirement for two discounted tickets per railcard which is not met. This is why retail systems require tickets with this discount to be sold in multiples of two.

 

[benk1342]

I agree with Yorkie and Orpine. The terms and conditions say only that the named pair must travel together - there is nothing about whether the tickets they hold must be "paired" or even identical (as discussed in another thread regarding on member of the pair with a season to cover part of the journey - on mobile so can't grab link at the moment).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I disagree. There is, in this case, a clear requirement for two discounted tickets per railcard which is not met. This is why retail systems require tickets with this discount to be sold in multiples of two.

The condition is that the named railcard holders must travel together. It says nothing about whether both named railcard holders must have bought a discounted ticket and be travelling together.

The only way of enforcing that on a web-based retail system is by only allowing you to buy discounted tickets in multiples of two. But there's no reason why a ticket office clerk, with sight of both railcards, shouldn't issue the discounted tickets.

Whether they will- or even can- or not is a different story...

 

[island]

STAR ticket office systems will not issue an odd number of tickets with a 2GETH discount.

 

[Aeion]

As a train guard myself I wouldn't accept the tickets being valid. I would explain that you bought two tickets (mother and father ) those two tickets are now linked to that one rail card. Your now presenting a discounted ticket (sons) with no second ticket (Fathers) therefore not entitled to a discount. To all I would say it's quite clear the intention of the railcard and merely looking for a vaguely worded technicality wouldn't make it valid. However with I would say the guards famous saying "contact customer services for them to resolve"

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is not dissimilar to the Network Railcard ambiguity - when purchasing a ticket for someone else with it, do you need a Railcard discounted ticket yourself, or could you use a season ticket or similar?

It could easily be solved by a modification to the T&Cs in both cases, from:

Both named cardholders must be travelling together to enable discounted tickets to be used.

to either of the following, depending on whether this scenario and similar ones are to be allowed or not:

"Both named cardholders must be travelling together using [identical?] discounted tickets purchased using the same Railcard to enable discounted tickets to be used."

or

"Both named cardholders must be travelling together to enable discounted tickets to be used. The tickets need not have been purchased using the same Railcard, e.g. one may be travelling on a season ticket."

This is actually explicit in the Gold Card T&Cs as:

7) If the journey You are making is covered by Your Annual Season ticket You do not need to buy
yourself a ticket. However, if You are purchasing discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcards for
accompanying adults or children and You intend to travel in a London Fare Zone not covered by Your
Annual Season ticket, You must also purchase a discounted Off-Peak Day Travelcard Zones 1-6 for
yourself.

It is very notable how specific this is.

 

[benk1342]

As a train guard myself I wouldn't accept the tickets being valid. I would explain that you bought two tickets (mother and father ) those two tickets are now linked to that one rail card. Your now presenting a discounted ticket (sons) with no second ticket (Fathers) therefore not entitled to a discount. To all I would say it's quite clear the intention of the railcard and merely looking for a vaguely worded technicality wouldn't make it valid. However with I would say the guards famous saying "contact customer services for them to resolve"

This is not an issue of a vaguely worded technicality. The terms and conditions are very clear. Your suggestion of tickets being "linked" to particular railcards is creating new rules that do not appear anywhere.

Further, the "intention" of the Two Together Railcard is to encourage people to take the train rather than drive by narrowing the gap in the price. It is not to force people to buy more tickets than they need or to force people to travel in precise multiples of two.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is not dissimilar to the Network Railcard ambiguity - when purchasing a ticket for someone else with it, do you need a Railcard discounted ticket yourself, or could you use a season ticket or similar?

It could easily be solved by a modification to the T&Cs in both cases, from:



to either of the following, depending on whether this scenario and similar ones are to be allowed or not:

"Both named cardholders must be travelling together using [identical?] discounted tickets purchased using the same Railcard to enable discounted tickets to be used."

or

"Both named cardholders must be travelling together to enable discounted tickets to be used. The tickets need not have been purchased using the same Railcard, e.g. one may be travelling on a season ticket."

This is actually explicit in the Gold Card T&Cs as:



It is very notable how specific this is.

I used to do this frequently with my season plus a NSE discounted ticket for my wife and never had any trouble buying or using the tickets.

 

[yorkie]

As a train guard myself I wouldn't accept the tickets being valid. I would explain that you bought two tickets (mother and father ) those two tickets are now linked to that one rail card. Your now presenting a discounted ticket (sons) with no second ticket (Fathers) therefore not entitled to a discount. To all I would say it's quite clear the intention of the railcard and merely looking for a vaguely worded technicality wouldn't make it valid. However with I would say the guards famous saying "contact customer services for them to resolve"

If you don't accept the tickets, and withdraw them, you'd be issuing a zero fare replacement and completing a TIR and it would then be up to customer services to contact the passenger if they wanted to?

(And if I worked in customer services I'd then not take any action as there appears to be no contractual basis for not honouring the tickets)

 

[bb21]

I think it falls into the realms of not explicitly forbidden, hence normal practice in the industry is that it is accepted (grudgingly albeit in some cases).

Expect a tightening of the wording though if the Railcard is only intended to be used by multiples of two people at a time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to do this frequently with my season plus a NSE discounted ticket for my wife and never had any trouble buying or using the tickets.

It's extremely common practice (as is just passing the Railcards around provided the recipient is the same gender as the cardholder). If it bothers the railway too much, it would be completely solved by modifying the T&C to be explicit that the Railcard holder must purchase a ticket using the Railcard to travel, and by adding a photocard.

 

[Jonfun]

I'm inclined to agree that there's nothing in the terms and conditions to prevent using a ticket in that manner. Whether any system is set up so as to be able to sell said tickets is a different matter entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm inclined to agree that there's nothing in the terms and conditions to prevent using a ticket in that manner. Whether any system is set up so as to be able to sell said tickets is a different matter entirely.

Trying to get hold of an extra child ticket for a Family Railcard group is similarly challenging at times...

 

[talldave]

It seems incredible that what you might presume to be the fundamental basis for a Two Together railcard - that it's used to buy two tickets - is missing from the T&Cs.

 

[benk1342]

It's extremely common practice (as is just passing the Railcards around provided the recipient is the same gender as the cardholder). If it bothers the railway too much, it would be completely solved by modifying the T&C to be explicit that the Railcard holder must purchase a ticket using the Railcard to travel, and by adding a photocard.

The difference is one is common practice that is permitted by the terms and conditions while the other is expressly prohibited.

 

[yorkie]

It seems incredible that what you might presume to be the fundamental basis for a Two Together railcard - that it's used to buy two tickets - is missing from the T&Cs.

I'm not really sure why the TOCs would be so against someone purchasing two Railcards for when they wish to travel with two different people on the same journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not really sure why the TOCs would be so against someone purchasing two Railcards for when they wish to travel with two different people on the same journey.

I can't see why they would be either (much as I think the Two Together is a fudge to avoid just doing what I think is needed, namely a National Railcard for all adults who want one at a higher price than the current ones). But the thing that's in question is whether a group of 3 can travel where one person was in common between the two cards.

I bet they didn't think of that.

 

[yorkie]

I can't see why they would be either (much as I think the Two Together is a fudge to avoid just doing what I think is needed, namely a National Railcard for all adults who want one at a higher price than the current ones).....

I was thinking exactly that, but didn't say so because I don't want to go off-topic! It's been done before - and many times -but if anyone wishes us debate it again feel free to do so in a new thread