Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

[Paul_10]

Honestly give it a rest about the seating layout. There are literally a few less seats, and what it does enable is better use of the space during peak times, when inevitably more passengers should use the service due to increased reliability. During day there will be more than enough seats. No bias, a customer consultation provided this solution.

Just an opinion and besides it's probably be one of things that will get mentioned when they do come into service.

To be fair from my observations people still stand even when there are seats available because some people don't like sitting next to strangers but it will be interesting how it plays out

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course the comments are predictable but doesn't mean they are wrong either. Hitachi may of produced a product quicker and on time but it's all ifs and buts really.

I wasn’t joking about Hitachi’s appalling build quality. Look at the IEP, with GWR in particular still having huge problems with availability.

At least Stadler have a track record of building good quality light rail products.

Exactly. Plus people complain about the seats but I bet they’d rather just get on a metro, at the moment at peak times, they can’t and often have to wait for 2 or 3 full metros to go past before they can fit on one.

Precisely. Even when the peak shorts were still running reliably it used to be touch and go whether I’d get a seat in the morning from Northumberland Park. That’s fine, but standing isn’t much fun on the Metrocars, especially down the aisle. Which means people standing won’t move down the train with the narrow aisle, which means the trains aren’t full yet people are getting left behind.

 

[Snex]

Honestly give it a rest about the seating layout. There are literally a few less seats, and what it does enable is better use of the space during peak times, when inevitably more passengers should use the service due to increased reliability. During day there will be more than enough seats. No bias, a customer consultation provided this solution.

The options were limited though, personally I still think it's poor having no transverse seating at all. They could've easily went for a mixed layout on Cars 2 and 4, and put 3 bays of 4 seats behind the disabled bays but that was never offered. Would've been a compromise, similar to the S8 stock in London with it's mixed layout.

 

[bramling]

The options were limited though, personally I still think it's poor having no transverse seating at all. They could've easily went for a mixed layout on Cars 2 and 4, and put 3 bays of 4 seats behind the disabled bays but that was never offered. Would've been a compromise, similar to the S8 stock in London with it's mixed layout.

I agree that some transverse seating should have been provided. South Hylton to Newcastle is a long journey to be sitting sideways. The Met Line has a mixed layout, and it seems to work.

 

[Snex]

I agree that some transverse seating should have been provided. South Hylton to Newcastle is a long journey to be sitting sideways. The Met Line has a mixed layout, and it seems to work.

Yeah totally agreed, plus I know there's quite a lot of people who actually like the bays of 4. The Metro is very different to the underground, it's like a social meeting point for some pensioners, whereas no-one talks on the underground.

Honestly give it a rest about the seating layout. There are literally a few less seats, and what it does enable is better use of the space during peak times, when inevitably more passengers should use the service due to increased reliability. During day there will be more than enough seats. No bias, a customer consultation provided this solution.

Which consulation was this, just curious? As it certainly wasn't mass public.

Feedback has been consistantly negative about the seating, ie.

Numerous respondents were dissatisfied with the linear seating layout and fewer seats on trains, whilst a smaller number of respondents were positive about the new more open layout.

From their own Metro Futures consultation - https://metrofutures.org.uk/findings (Physical tab)

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Met Line has a mixed layout, and it seems to work.

The S8 mixed layout was a sop to the home counties crew, already put out at losing the A stock. Similar length journeys on the District S7s don’t have transverse seating.

The longest common journeys on Metro are about 15-20 minutes. Even Sunderland to Newcastle is under 30 minutes. Longitudinal seating is perfectly fine for those sorts of journeys.

The nanas out on their free passes probably do want the bays of 4, but those who use Metro to commute just want to be able to get on to a train in a morning.

It’s all been done to death though.

 

[18nufc98]

Everyday during non peak times there are lots of free seats where people don’t/wont sit next to each other. In a 2v2 facing each other, a lot of the time there will only be 1 person sat there. Depending on who that person is there’s also a decent chance they’re sat with their feet on the opposite seat. Because of this a lot of passengers stand around the doorways rather than sit next to a stranger.

 

[railfan249]

Yeah totally agreed, plus I know there's quite a lot of people who actually like the bays of 4. The Metro is very different to the underground, it's like a social meeting point for some pensioners, whereas no-one talks on the underground.



Which consulation was this, just curious? As it certainly wasn't mass public.

Feedback has been consistantly negative about the seating, ie.


From their own Metro Futures consultation - https://metrofutures.org.uk/findings (Physical tab)

It was mass public, more than 23000 people took part, mostly done online I believe due to covid.

The base point here is that there are only slightly less seats than there are now, and quite frankly it seems rather ridiculous to have this fantastic new fleet, when it does eventually come into service overshadowed by a loud minority saying ‘they’re nice but the seat layout isn’t great.’ It’s a few less seats giving way to more wheelchair space, more practicality and more space for customers especially in the morning peaks. Get over it.

 

[Meerkat]

Yeah totally agreed, plus I know there's quite a lot of people who actually like the bays of 4. The Metro is very different to the underground, it's like a social meeting point for some pensioners, whereas no-one talks on the underground.

Plenty of people talk on the Underground, but only to those they are travelling with - with long frequent trains in a huge city the chance of bumping into someone you know is minimal.
Longitudinal seating is better for chatting - you split across the two sides and can get a better grouping than four in a bay plus others looking at the back of their heads.

 

[Snex]

It was mass public, more than 23000 people took part, mostly done online I believe due to covid.

The base point here is that there are only slightly less seats than there are now, and quite frankly it seems rather ridiculous to have this fantastic new fleet, when it does eventually come into service overshadowed by a loud minority saying ‘they’re nice but the seat layout isn’t great.’ It’s a few less seats giving way to more wheelchair space, more practicality and more space for customers especially in the morning peaks. Get over it.

Think your thinking of the Metro Futures here, the seating layout definitely wasn't part of that. It was more about grab rails and seat covers. If I'm right, it was done by the invited smaller group research they done in the earlier stages and if I'm right it was all 2 by 2 bays, 1 by 2 bays or fully longitudinal.

Mind that said, it doesn't bother me, but sometimes it's better to make a small change to shut people up, a few bays there - would it make that much difference in capacity. I'd doubt it, the trains aren't that packed out, it's just wasted currently as there's too many bays plus 2 cabs taking up the space instead.

If I wanted to go on a moan, I'm more bothered about why the seats are in groups of 3's in terms of handrails and arm rests, so there's now 'middle seats' which no-one as a single commuter wants and don't on the current Metro trains either.

Plenty of people talk on the Underground, but only to those they are travelling with - with long frequent trains in a huge city the chance of bumping into someone you know is minimal.
Longitudinal seating is better for chatting - you split across the two sides and can get a better grouping than four in a bay plus others looking at the back of their heads.

Not sure about that mind, excluding the underground trains as they're narrower. Guess it depends how many of you there is though.

 

[The Laziest]

The Newcastle Chronicles reports that Nexus have withheld £1.4m in contractual payments from Stadler due to underperformance ever since they took over maintenance of the new trains:

Tyne and Wear Metro operator issues £1.4m worth of penalties over train failures

Nexus has confirmed that it has withheld more than £1 million in contractual payments to Stadler, the firm responsible for maintaining the Metro's ageing train fleet

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Kind of feel sorry for Stadler, who clearly underestimated how dire the situation with the old fleet was/is. At the same time I think Nexus definitely have a cheek for withholding all of this money knowing perfectly well how difficult the fleet is to maintain and keep going, since they were the ones in charge of this until a while ago. As long as the contract allows, I suppose…

 

[Volvictof]

The Newcastle Chronicles reports that Nexus have withheld £1.4m in contractual payments from Stadler due to underperformance ever since they took over maintenance of the new trains:

Tyne and Wear Metro operator issues £1.4m worth of penalties over train failures

Nexus has confirmed that it has withheld more than £1 million in contractual payments to Stadler, the firm responsible for maintaining the Metro's ageing train fleet

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

Kind of feel sorry for Stadler, who clearly underestimated how dire the situation with the old fleet was/is. At the same time I think Nexus definitely have a cheek for withholding all of this money knowing perfectly well how difficult the fleet is to maintain and keep going, since they were the ones in charge of this until a while ago. As long as the contract allows, I suppose…

Little sympathy for Stadler here Im afraid, they did their due diligence, they will have spoken to the metro fleet teams to get an idea of what they were getting into, a detailed business case would have been made with plenty of research. If they underestimated, then that’s their own issue.

The situation is pretty dire at the moment, the new fleet can’t come quick enough. Yes there is more testing that needs to be done, but they are fantastic bits of kit. People are really underestimating the effect they will have….. eventually.

 

[DanNCL]

Are we anywhere near a solution to the traction issues or is there still no change on that one?

 

[Trestrol]

Little sympathy for Stadler here Im afraid, they did their due diligence, they will have spoken to the metro fleet teams to get an idea of what they were getting into, a detailed business case would have been made with plenty of research. If they underestimated, then that’s their own issue.

The situation is pretty dire at the moment, the new fleet can’t come quick enough. Yes there is more testing that needs to be done, but they are fantastic bits of kit. People are really underestimating the effect they will have….. eventually.

The problem is the depot. The new depot is designed to maintain the new fleet not an ageing old one. The existing fleet needs more comprehensive workshop facilities than are now available.

 

[DanNCL]

The problem is the depot. The new depot is designed to maintain the new fleet not an ageing old one. The existing fleet needs more comprehensive workshop facilities than are now available.

I can't help thinking that it may have been better to replace the fleet first then rebuild the depot once the Metrocars had gone and the transition to the new fleet were complete. For all of the issues with the old depot, at least it was setup to maintain the old fleet, the new one isn't. Obviously a bit late for that now!

 

[DustyBin]

I can't help thinking that it may have been better to replace the fleet first then rebuild the depot once the Metrocars had gone and the transition to the new fleet were complete. For all of the issues with the old depot, at least it was setup to maintain the old fleet, the new one isn't. Obviously a bit late for that now!

Presumably this was the issue?

 

[railfan249]

I can't help thinking that it may have been better to replace the fleet first then rebuild the depot once the Metrocars had gone and the transition to the new fleet were complete. For all of the issues with the old depot, at least it was setup to maintain the old fleet, the new one isn't. Obviously a bit late for that now!

One thing that is worth noting is now the rest of the depot has opened, there is theoretically a lot more free space to shunt about, so while the maintenance roads are still a pain to get trains in and out of, it shouldn’t be a case of having to constantly shunt trains about to get them in there.

 

[Trestrol]

One thing that is worth noting is now the rest of the depot has opened, there is theoretically a lot more free space to shunt about, so while the maintenance roads are still a pain to get trains in and out of, it shouldn’t be a case of having to constantly shunt trains about to get them in there.

Yes but not when you need at least two units to shunt one into the shed. As the sheds not wired inside in creates problems. The new fleet has limited battery power to shunt themselves the old flat doesn't. The shed was supposed to be wired but was dropped to save costs.

 

[Jozhua]

Doesn't this give some incentive to Stadler to hurry up with introducing the new fleet, or is most of the dawdling down to Nexus now?

 

[Trestrol]

Still got testing to complete and 19,000 km(IIRC) of trouble free running to complete first.

 

[ModernRailways]

Doesn't this give some incentive to Stadler to hurry up with introducing the new fleet, or is most of the dawdling down to Nexus now?

No, the testing program and mileage required before entering service hasn’t changed and can’t change other than to be delayed.
Once the units are signed off by the ORR things should start to speed up in terms of testing and entering service but that is still a while off.

 

[Bow Fell]

Have a look at what is going in on Liverpool and you’ll start to see a pattern. The worst is yet to come.

People very quick to blame the mayor or train operating company. But there’s one common denominator.

 

[Paul_10]

The situation is pretty dire at the moment, the new fleet can’t come quick enough. Yes there is more testing that needs to be done, but they are fantastic bits of kit. People are really underestimating the effect they will have….. eventually.

I've no doubt the quality especially for drivers will be quite high but let's face facts here, the new fleet has not done any significant testing with the day to day service so we don't fully know if anything unexpected might pop up when that does happen. Secondly we don't know the reliability of these trains because they obviously have not done 18 or so hours a day service for 7 days a week and if the Liverpool trains are anything to go by, it shows even the new stuff can be unreliable.

I hope and prey that won't be the case here but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[CarrotPie]

I've no doubt the quality especially for drivers will be quite high but let's face facts here, the new fleet has not done any significant testing with the day to day service so we don't fully know if anything unexpected might pop up when that does happen. Secondly we don't know the reliability of these trains because they obviously have not done 18 or so hours a day service for 7 days a week and if the Liverpool trains are anything to go by, it shows even the new stuff can be unreliable.

I hope and prey that won't be the case here but I'm not holding my breath.

Have a look at what is going in on Liverpool and you’ll start to see a pattern. The worst is yet to come.

People very quick to blame the mayor or train operating company. But there’s one common denominator.

Give them a few years, 'til they've started really racking up the miles, and then see how they stack up against the 507s/508s/599s. I'll bet it'll be better.

 

[hacman]

then see how the stack up against the 507s/508s/599s

None of which were 100% trouble-free at introduction, and the 507/8 had the significant advantage of being part of an utterly massive series of similar units.

 

[CarrotPie]

None of which were 100% trouble-free at introduction, and the 507/8 had the significant advantage of being part of an utterly massive series of similar units.

Precisely. The 555s and 777s are different to each other and any other stock on the network, so there's no real benchmark.

 

[ExRes]

It's all been so long now, can anyone be good enough to remind me which 555s have been delivered so far

Thanks

 

[DanNCL]

It's all been so long now, can anyone be good enough to remind me which 555s have been delivered so far

Thanks

003, 004, 005, 013 and 015 are in the UK.

 

[ExRes]

003, 004, 005, 013 and 015 are in the UK.

Thanks @DanNCL it all seems so long ago .....

 

[Killingworth]

003, 004, 005, 013 and 015 are in the UK.

Which now begs the question, when were the first units originally forecast to be entering service?

I have a now distant memory of hoping to use one after the 2022 Great North Run then having that postponed to 2023, only to learn 2024 is looking increasingly doubtful!

Meanwhile my grandson in Newcastle tells me he's using Ubers as much as Metros or unpredictable, untrackable bus replacements.