Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[Volvodart]

Have Wrights produced an electric double decker before now?

They have had a demonstrator. (pictured below)

 

[Jordan Adam]

It's interesting that ADL, with their greater technical resources have gone into partnership with BDL, whereas Wright and Optare are doing it by themselves

Arguably ADL took a wise move. The BYD platform was already proven and it saved them wasting money (at that time) developing their own chassis.

ADLs philosophy has always been that "50% of an order is better than no order".

 

[Man of Kent]

Abellio will almost certainly be the lead customer for the Caetano double decker as I recall they have the same parent company

Not the case. Abellio is ultimately owned by the Dutch government, while bus building is a small part of the activities of Portuguese multi-national Grupo Salvador Caetano.

 

[MotCO]

The reason Go Ahead London has ordered the Metrodecker for the 200 is that the BYD/ADL combo is too long to fit the route. Assuming they get delivered this side of 2022, as Optare/Switch need to up their game with deliveries, otherwise someone else will try and win orders off of their issues. I believe Caetano are looking towards to producing an electric decker if they can see a market for it.

Yutong have produced a double decker electric bus for Singapore https://landtransportguru.net/yutong-e12dd/

The reason Go Ahead London has ordered the Metrodecker for the 200 is that the BYD/ADL combo is too long to fit the route.

The ADL bus is 10.9m long, the Optare 10.5m long; does that make all the difference?

 

[37114]

Not the case. Abellio is ultimately owned by the Dutch government, while bus building is a small part of the activities of Portuguese multi-national Grupo Salvador Caetano.

Just checked, you are correct re the ownership but the link between the two companies although small is via Mitsui corporation who own a stake Caetano and have also partnered with Abellio in the UK for one of the Rail franchises. The Mitsui link between the was mentioned in one of the magazines when Abellio put the Caetano single deck electrics on the road.

 

[Bluecardholder]

Yutong have produced a double decker electric bus for Singapore https://landtransportguru.net/yutong-e12dd/



The ADL bus is 10.9m long, the Optare 10.5m long; does that make all the difference?

I understand that makes the difference, albeit small.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The ADL bus is 10.9m long, the Optare 10.5m long; does that make all the difference?

Most of the extra 40CM is in the wheelbase so yes it would make quite a difference to the turning circle.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Most of the extra 40CM is in the wheelbase so yes it would make quite a difference to the turning circle.

All of it is iirc, overhangs are the same on all chassis lengths.

 

[Jordan Adam]

All of it is iirc, overhangs are the same on all chassis lengths.

The overhangs will be different on the BYD/ADL E400s when compared to the Optare Metrodecker as they're from different manufacturers. But it isn't anything significant. I think you've perhaps confused my post as comparing different lengths of the same bus?

 

[MotCO]

All of it is iirc, overhangs are the same on all chassis lengths.

Except the Volvo B5LH - it has a massive overhang.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The overhangs will be different on the BYD/ADL E400s when compared to the Optare Metrodecker as they're from different manufacturers. But it isn't anything significant. I think you've perhaps confused my post as comparing different lengths of the same bus?

Across the same type of bus, the overhang will be the same.

Except the Volvo B5LH - it has a massive overhang.

We're talking about the Enviro 400.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Across the same type of bus, the overhang will be the same.

We're talking about the Enviro 400.

Indeed but were weren't talking about the same type of bus. We were talking about the BYD/ADL E400EV vs the Optare Metrodecker, in which case there will be a slight difference in overhangs albeit not significant.

 

[507021]

We're talking about the Enviro 400.

There are Enviro400s based on the Volvo B5LH chassis, and the rear overhang is very long.

 

[cnjb8]

I've thought with the BYD combo that ADL were looking for a quick entry to the electric market so needed a tried and tested chassis for it.

They have had a demonstrator. (pictured below)

Fuel cells are for hydrogen, I think

 

[507021]

I've thought with the BYD combo that ADL were looking for a quick entry to the electric market so needed a tried and tested chassis for it.

Fuel cells are for hydrogen, I think

That is correct.

 

[Volvodart]

It should have a hydrogen sign on the front if that is the case, I would have thought. If it is not that one, I have not seen any battery electric Streetdeck from Wrightbus.

Here is a recent photo of the 2 Wrightbus demonstrator:-

https://media-exp1.licdn.com/dms/im...t=v0QgYOqttDNnkDM7TS5gZoXJ90f0ZkauM53bVdFW4ms

 

[CBlue]

Wrightbus built the Streetair single decker operated by Lothian.

There's also some electric Streetlites running around Milton Keynes which were originally to prove on-road charging concepts.

 

[Sprinter150]

There's also some electric Streetlites running around Milton Keynes which were originally to prove on-road charging concepts.

Not any more from the sound of it.

www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/people/could-milton-keynes-be-britains-first-fully-electric-bus-town-1426117

“
For the past five years, Milton Keynes has had eight electric buses operating here. They ran on Route 7, covering 15 miles between Wolverton and Bletchley and carrying an estimated 800,000 passengers a year.

The Arriva electric buses in MK were withdrawn last Autumn

But they were part of a five year trial which expired last year. The buses were withdrawn last October and replaced with normal vehicles because "it was time to move on", according to Arriva.
“

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed but were weren't talking about the same type of bus. We were talking about the BYD/ADL E400EV vs the Optare Metrodecker, in which case there will be a slight difference in overhangs albeit not significant.

It's the long wheelbase that's the issue on the ADL/BYD, a factor of the unusually short rear overhang combined with what is already a long bus. The wheelbase may well be longer than that found on a 12m bus such as the Citaro and it's this that has been found to be problematic on certain routes tested in London.

 

[David Verity]

Wrightbus built the Streetair single decker operated by Lothian.

There's also some electric Streetlites running around Milton Keynes which were originally to prove on-road charging concepts.

Judging by Lothian's experience I wouldn't take that as a recommendation. They've been laid up since lockdown and no certainty that they'll ever re enter service.

 

[Mikey C]

Arguably ADL took a wise move. The BYD platform was already proven and it saved them wasting money (at that time) developing their own chassis.

ADLs philosophy has always been that "50% of an order is better than no order".

A strategy that was fine when electric buses were a niche product, but going forward they are becoming the norm now and a large part of ADLs business will have been from integral E200, E400 and E500s

 

[Jordan Adam]

A strategy that was fine when electric buses were a niche product, but going forward they are becoming the norm now and a large part of ADLs business will have been from integral E200, E400 and E500s

I agree, that's why i put in brackets "at that time" as while working with BYD made sense a few years ago, when it comes to the next generation of buses ADL need to be looking at a product that is fully their own.

It does somewhat seem that ADL are starting to lag behind, especially when it comes to Hydrogen. Wright already have 100+ orders for Hydrogen buses while Optare and ADL have zero confirmed. It'll be interesting to see how things progress over the next decade or so as we're in a time of quite substantial change.

 

[CBlue]

I'm not sure ADL continuing along the "50% of an order is better than none" route is a bad thing at all. After all as Walter Alexander Coachbuilders they got to a fair size simply by bodying more or less any chassis you wanted.

Just look at what happened to East Lancs/Optare after they started refusing to body any more Scania and Volvo chassis orders with the Olympus, instead concentrating on their prototype integral Olympus. They handed a fair number of orders, especially of open tops, to MCV, Wrights and ADL on a plate.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'm not sure ADL continuing along the "50% of an order is better than none" route is a bad thing at all. After all as Walter Alexander Coachbuilders they got to a fair size simply by bodying more or less any chassis you wanted.

Just look at what happened to East Lancs/Optare after they started refusing to body any more Scania and Volvo chassis orders with the Olympus, instead concentrating on their prototype integral Olympus. They handed a fair number of orders, especially of open tops, to MCV, Wrights and ADL on a plate.

Wright also suffer from that to an extent. If it's not an integral or volvo, they're not bodying it.

 

[Snow1964]

It's the long wheelbase that's the issue on the ADL/BYD, a factor of the unusually short rear overhang combined with what is already a long bus. The wheelbase may well be longer than that found on a 12m bus such as the Citaro and it's this that has been found to be problematic on certain routes tested in London.

The BYD version only comes in a 10.9m length. This is due to the positioning of the batteries. Even though the 19t weight derogation is used (for electric 2 axle buses), there is still maximum weights on each axle, so can’t just stack battery racks up where diesel lump used to be, they have to be distributed to spread weight.

Whilst the tie up with BYD has helped ADL, it is rumoured that the BYD chassis are rationed to max 400 per year. As ADL also plan to close the Dennis chassis plant in Guildford they could be struggling to build whole buses in big volumes going forward.

Wrightbus built the Streetair single decker operated by Lothian.

There's also some electric Streetlites running around Milton Keynes which were originally to prove on-road charging concepts.

I think Wrightbus only ever built 16 electric buses
8 Streetlites (used in Milton Keynes), withdrawn
6 Streetairs for Lothian (all out of use)
1 street air demonstrator (not sure what happened to it)
1 other which was used as development bus

It appears the 80 electric double decks for Northern Ireland are new combination, I would guess a modified Streetdeck is basis

 

[cnjb8]

Not any more from the sound of it.

www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/people/could-milton-keynes-be-britains-first-fully-electric-bus-town-1426117

“
For the past five years, Milton Keynes has had eight electric buses operating here. They ran on Route 7, covering 15 miles between Wolverton and Bletchley and carrying an estimated 800,000 passengers a year.

The Arriva electric buses in MK were withdrawn last Autumn

But they were part of a five year trial which expired last year. The buses were withdrawn last October and replaced with normal vehicles because "it was time to move on", according to Arriva.
“

I believe they were on a five year lease agreement, probably scrapped by now

I'm not sure ADL continuing along the "50% of an order is better than none" route is a bad thing at all. After all as Walter Alexander Coachbuilders they got to a fair size simply by bodying more or less any chassis you wanted.

Just look at what happened to East Lancs/Optare after they started refusing to body any more Scania and Volvo chassis orders with the Olympus, instead concentrating on their prototype integral Olympus. They handed a fair number of orders, especially of open tops, to MCV, Wrights and ADL on a plate.

Agreed but the vast majority of operators order integral now so I'm not sure it's a contributing factor anymore

Wright also suffer from that to an extent. If it's not an integral or volvo, they're not bodying it.

From what I can gather, they aren't bodying Volvo anymore either. But that isn't a bad thing as I mention above, the StreetDeck has vastly outperformed the B5TL and B5LH. While the last ADL bodied Scania and Volvo orders were over a year ago

 

[Jordan Adam]

From what I can gather, they aren't bodying Volvo anymore either. But that isn't a bad thing as I mention above, the StreetDeck has vastly outperformed the B5TL and B5LH. While the last ADL bodied Scania and Volvo orders were over a year ago

Makes sense, B5TL orders have been quite thin post 2017 and the B8RLE never picked up. Heavyweight single deckers are quite a niche market now and when it comes to the B8RLE it seems MCV have it quite tightly locked down in the UK, although some would say that the success of the Evora is more down to the fact it's the only real option... London are focusing on Battery Electrics so B5LH sales won't be what they once were a few years ago either.

 

[Mikey C]

Makes sense, B5TL orders have been quite thin post 2017 and the B8RLE never picked up. Heavyweight single deckers are quite a niche market now and when it comes to the B8RLE it seems MCV have it quite tightly locked down in the UK, although some would say that the success of the Evora is more down to the fact it's the only real option... London are focusing on Battery Electrics so B5LH sales won't be what they once were a few years ago either.

Wrights did miss out to MCV on a lot of later B5LH work in London, I'm sure that hurt them financially

I'm not sure ADL continuing along the "50% of an order is better than none" route is a bad thing at all. After all as Walter Alexander Coachbuilders they got to a fair size simply by bodying more or less any chassis you wanted.

Just look at what happened to East Lancs/Optare after they started refusing to body any more Scania and Volvo chassis orders with the Olympus, instead concentrating on their prototype integral Olympus. They handed a fair number of orders, especially of open tops, to MCV, Wrights and ADL on a plate.

It's not that ADL should stop bodying other chassis, it's just that they have a significant integral/chassis business of their own, and uniquely have the heritage and experience from the Dennis side.

How many Dennis Dart/Dart SLF/E200 chassis have they made in the last 30 years for example? That's a lot of work they potentially would lose if they don't have their own electric chassis going forward

 

[cnjb8]

I believe they were on a five year lease agreement, probably scrapped by now

Agreed but the vast majority of operators order integral now so I'm not sure it's a contributing factor anymore

From what I can gather, they aren't bodying Volvo anymore either. But that isn't a bad thing as I mention above, the StreetDeck has vastly outperformed the B5TL and B5LH. While the last ADL bodied Scania and Volvo orders were over a year ago

Silly me, Lothian have ordered another batch of ADL bodied Volvos. Seems Lothian is the only costumer in that particular market

 

[90019]

Judging by Lothian's experience I wouldn't take that as a recommendation. They've been laid up since lockdown and no certainty that they'll ever re enter service.

Most of them had already been parked up out of use for months before covid happened.