UK face coverings discussion

[AdamWW]

Need to remember that number of tests have gone up too and more you test the more you find.

Indeed so just looking at raw graphs of positive tests is not hugely illuminating.

Actually working out what is going on is a bit more sophisticated than just looking at graphs and drawing immediate conclusions.

 

[packermac]

What is it coming to indeed? That’s shocking.
For me it’s the bit I’ve made bold that’s the worst part. Surely if there’s no patient it’s personal choice?
It’s all very worrying.

Surely if that is what your employer wants in a company vehicle that is the rule. Same as you should not be smoking in a company vehicle even if on your own.

 

[yorkie]

You say there was no upturn when places opened but the data posted earlier in this thread suggests differently. June and July were roughly the low point and cases have only increased since then.

This appears to be a misleading claim.

Actual cases were stable until at least the week ending 20 August; see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53949080

Cases of coronavirus are still levelling off in England, according to data from swab tests of thousands of people in random households.

Modelling by the Office for National Statistics estimates there are 2,200 new infections per day.

Following a low point in June in the percentage of people testing positive for the virus, there was a small increase in July.

This is staying stable for the week ending 20 August, the ONS says.

The increase in detected cases until (at least) that point was due to increased testing.

We are now seeing an increase in actual cases.

By the way, what's your view on the low cases in Sweden, where they do not wear masks, @WelshBluebird ?

Also if masks are a silver bullet, why are cases surging in France and Spain, where masks are more strictly mandated than in the UK?

While I am prepared to accept they have some limited benefits in certain settings (e.g. shops) I think the idea that they are making a big difference in the real world, is not supported by any factual evidence I've seen.

What is it coming to indeed? That’s shocking.
For me it’s the bit I’ve made bold that’s the worst part. Surely if there’s no patient it’s personal choice?
It’s all very worrying.

This illustrates perfectly why I am very concerned at the way masks are being mandated; it's being taken too far. I will not wear one at work.

 

[bramling]

I would like to give this shop some custom, can you say where it is please? PM if you prefer!

PM sent. Don't want to publicise to Karen in case she shames!

Surely if that is what your employer wants in a company vehicle that is the rule. Same as you should not be smoking in a company vehicle even if on your own.

This came up elsewhere on here, and the general view was it's a bit of a grey area. Obviously masks probably won't be specifically mentioned in contracts of employment / terms (etc), but it could be covered as a "reasonable instruction" or as part of uniform / PPE perhaps.

It would need a bit of a "test case" to see what would or wouldn't stand up.

 

[adc82140]

Currently on a TfW service. There's a security man going up and down the train telling people to put their masks on. He told some people opposite me off for eating - he said 'you shouldn't really be eating - but if you must drink you can lower your mask'. I'm eating my lunch right now and he just walked by, I think I got away with it...

I'd love to have been there, flashed my NHS ID and given him a lecture on the safe use of face masks, and how lowering them to eat or drink is a terrible idea. They should be taken off, put in a plastic bag, hands sanitised, then replaced with a new one when you're done eating.

 

[6862]

I'd love to have been there, flashed my NHS ID and given him a lecture on the safe use of face masks, and how lowering them to eat or drink is a terrible idea. They should be taken off, put in a plastic bag, hands sanitised, then replaced with a new one when you're done eating.

While that would have been very entertaining to see, I feel that sticking rigidly to these hygiene measures, while perhaps the safest way to do it, is incredibly wasteful. This isn't direct criticism of you or anyone else who uses disposable face masks, but rather the general culture of waste we are embracing. Isn't it rather hypocritical given that last year we were all so bothered about the environment!

 

[trebor79]

PM sent. Don't want to publicise to Karen in case she shames!

Thank you!

 

[greyman42]

My father works in the ambulance service as a patient transport driver/assistant. He's been told today that he must wear a mask for his whole shift, regardless of whether he has a patient in the back or not, and if he's caught without one (even if he's in the vehicle alone) it'll be straight to disciplinary action.

All the drivers/assistants should stick together on this one and refuse to wear masks when they don't have a patient. They cannot sack them all.

Their reasoning is that it demonstrates 'good practice' to the public who see them as they are driving around (apparently they've had some complaints from drivers who saw ambulance drivers without masks)

Terrible that members of the public are going around shopping ambulance staff for not wearing masks. One day these people may need an ambulance in an emergency and they might get some poetic justice.

 

[Richard Scott]

My father works in the ambulance service as a patient transport driver/assistant. He's been told today that he must wear a mask for his whole shift, regardless of whether he has a patient in the back or not, and if he's caught without one (even if he's in the vehicle alone) it'll be straight to disciplinary action.

I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous. Their reasoning is that it demonstrates 'good practice' to the public who see them as they are driving around (apparently they've had some complaints from drivers who saw ambulance drivers without masks)

What is the world coming to

Not a good reason when they can't even give us decent scientific evidence for wearing them. About time we had some proper education about this virus to the masses but seems no-one willing to actually stand up and be honest. I know we don't know everything but all these knee jerk reactions to public opinion is not acceptable. We'll have the wretched masks everywhere soon and that restricts what some of us who can only wear them for a short time can do as don't want to fall victim to the vigilantes.

 

[adc82140]

While that would have been very entertaining to see, I feel that sticking rigidly to these hygiene measures, while perhaps the safest way to do it, is incredibly wasteful. This isn't direct criticism of you or anyone else who uses disposable face masks, but rather the general culture of waste we are embracing. Isn't it rather hypocritical given that last year we were all so bothered about the environment!

Oh absolutely. I'm just illustrating how stupid the whole thing is. No one will handle their mask appropriately. Away from work I find it difficult. It's just not practical.

 

[keep truckin]

Will keep an open mind about masks. There's a lot we're still learning about this virus. Personally don't see the issue as meriting the use of terms such as 'vigilantes' or 'maskivists' - which smack of unconstructive knee jerk emotions to me.

Two leaders in particular come to mind have who made an absolute pig's ear of their pandemic response, Trump & Brazil's Bolsonaro - with both countries having massive death tolls. Both these figures are anti science, anti environment & pro big business.

This virus should serve as a warning, we will eventually recover from it. But it has shown the vulnerability of our way of life. Climate change, threat of nuclear war & pandemics are existential issues that need to be addressed urgently. Scientists did warn about the danger of another pandemic after the SARS outbreak, but clearly not enough has been done in terms of preparation or prevention. Cooperation between nations is key I feel.

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists Science & Security Board have currently set their Doomsday Clock (which is a universally recognised indicator of global catastrophe) to 100 seconds to midnight - midnight meaning we're finished. This is available to view on the Internet & it's the closest it's ever been to midnight since its creation.

Yes, I haven't solely discussed masks in this post. But by expecting better off our representatives & demanding more to be done regarding the threats we face, then maybe in a future pandemic we will already know whether the mask is effective or not. Or even better, there'll be no need for masks or whatever 'plaster' required for the relevant crisis as it would have been avoided.

 

[yorkie]

Oh absolutely. I'm just illustrating how stupid the whole thing is. No one will handle their mask appropriately. Away from work I find it difficult. It's just not practical.

What's your view on young people aged 11-16 being asked to wear face coverings in a secondary school settings when using the corridors (which will typically be around 8 times per day)?

Although the Government is not recommending it outside of local lockdown areas, my local council has written a letter to parents stating the Government is recommending it, and has asked schools to encourage their use. Some staff are even saying things like "If you choose not to wear a face covering you are putting people at risk". I am not comfortable with the way things are going in this area.

Will keep an open mind about masks. There's a lot we're still learning about this virus. Personally don't see the issue as meriting the use of terms such as 'vigilantes' or 'maskivists' - which smack of unconstructive knee jerk emotions to me....

It's a reaction to extreme statements by people matching the descriptions; some of them go so far as to refer to non-wearers as "murders" while others suggest people with asthma should not be travelling, or people with autism/anxiety should be excluded form society, that sort of thing. Examples of such views can be readily found on social media.

 

[6862]

Oh absolutely. I'm just illustrating how stupid the whole thing is. No one will handle their mask appropriately. Away from work I find it difficult. It's just not practical.

Yes - it's not practical or sustainable at all.

 

[rg177]

Just had my first mask related encounter.

Sat on the bus home (Go North East). Top deck is completely empty and I'm sat at the front.

Pulled my mask down a couple of times to reach into my bag and eat some pretzels. Pushed it up in between.

Driver stops the bus, comes storming up the stairs and says if I pull down my mask again I'll be thrown off.

I can't say I expected that. No rules posted about eating and drinking either. Otherwise I'm always masked up, so I was a little taken aback by the borderline aggressive attitude.

 

[AdamWW]

Just had my first mask related encounter.

Sat on the bus home (Go North East). Top deck is completely empty and I'm sat at the front.

Pulled my mask down a couple of times to reach into my bag and eat some pretzels. Pushed it up in between.

Driver stops the bus, comes storming up the stairs and says if I pull down my mask again I'll be thrown off.

I can't say I expected that. No rules posted about eating and drinking either. Otherwise I'm always masked up, so I was a little taken aback by the borderline aggressive attitude.

If that happened to me I'd certainly be writing to the bus company.

Depending on how urgently I needed to be somewhere I might have been tempted to get thrown off and then see if the papers were interested.

 

[yorkie]

Personally don't see the issue as meriting the use of terms such as 'vigilantes' or 'maskivists' - which smack of unconstructive knee jerk emotions to me....

Just had my first mask related encounter.

Sat on the bus home (Go North East). Top deck is completely empty and I'm sat at the front.

Pulled my mask down a couple of times to reach into my bag and eat some pretzels. Pushed it up in between.

Driver stops the bus, comes storming up the stairs and says if I pull down my mask again I'll be thrown off.

I can't say I expected that. No rules posted about eating and drinking either. Otherwise I'm always masked up, so I was a little taken aback by the borderline aggressive attitude.

@keep truckin do you now know see why the aforementioned terms are deemed merited by an increasing number of people?

 

[Yew]

One thing that I have found is that masky-people have a wonderful social media game, they have slick presentation, easily sharable memes. Unfortunately they often over-egg the scant evidenc,e and rely mainly on bullying and belittlement, by lumping "mask deniers" with covid-hoaxers and anti-vaxxers.

 

[yorkie]

One thing that I have found is that masky-people have a wonderful social media game, they have slick presentation, easily sharable memes. Unfortunately they often over-egg the scant evidenc,e and rely mainly on bullying and belittlement, by lumping "mask deniers" with covid-hoaxers and anti-vaxxers.

This is very true.

 

[Yew]

Personally don't see the issue as meriting the use of terms such as 'vigilantes' or 'maskivists' - which smack of unconstructive knee jerk emotions to me.

Look at some of the vitriolic abuse you see whenever someone who is not convinced by the poor-quality evidence of masks rears their heads on social media, and you'll soon understand.

 

[rg177]

The same driver also appeared to deliberately stop short of a bus stop when two intending passengers had their masks in their hands. He refused to pull forward until they were put on.

So, if in that case, he wasn't just picking on me alone, this means he's been going around the entire time behaving like this.

For the record, I do believe masks to be helpful and will wear them wherever its required.

 

[Journeyman]

I was on one of the new Northern trains today and there was a jovial Geordie announcement welcoming us to the train, followed by a sterner announcement warning that face coverings should be worn at all times. The voice over artist for the face covering announcement sounded a bit like Patrick Allen, who did the voice overs for the "Protect and Survive" cartoons.

"If anyone dies..."

AAAAARGH!

 

[NorthOxonian]

The same driver also appeared to deliberately stop short of a bus stop when two intending passengers had their masks in their hands. He refused to pull forward until they were put on.

So, if in that case, he wasn't just picking on me alone, this means he's been going around the entire time behaving like this.

For the record, I do believe masks to be helpful and will wear them wherever its required.

Go North East like to make a big song and dance about being focused on customer service, but that driver's approach seems to be anything but. This goes way beyond common sense or what the actual rules state, and if I were you I'd seriously consider writing in as a complaint.

Thank goodness no-one who was exempt tried to get on his bus!

 

[bramling]

One thing that I have found is that masky-people have a wonderful social media game, they have slick presentation, easily sharable memes. Unfortunately they often over-egg the scant evidenc,e and rely mainly on bullying and belittlement, by lumping "mask deniers" with covid-hoaxers and anti-vaxxers.

Yes quite so.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course anti-maskers are whiter than driven snow in all of this

 

[rg177]

Go North East like to make a big song and dance about being focused on customer service, but that driver's approach seems to be anything but. This goes way beyond common sense or what the actual rules state, and if I were you I'd seriously consider writing in as a complaint.

Thank goodness no-one who was exempt tried to get on his bus!

The thing is, I have only positive things to say usually about all the operators up here. I fully appreciate that it can be stressful during this time and driver's attitudes have been often above and beyond exceptional.

I haven't experienced such an attitude in a number of years. I'll be honest, my main thought is, if that attitude is repeated then someone will have a less pleasant response than my "ah sorry mate".

 

[keep truckin]

@keep truckin do you now know see why the aforementioned terms are deemed merited by an increasing number of people?

Well, social media has been mentioned but that's very toxic & polarised so I stay off it.

Of course, say for example, if someone has a medical condition which means they are permitted not to wear a mask, then I can see how they can be judged. I was in a restaurant a week or so ago & one server wasn't wearing one. I initially thought it a little odd as all the others were wearing one, but then I reminded myself not to judge as there could be a valid reason.

If people are overzealous or rude to someone not wearing one when they are exempt, then that is completely wrong. In the same way as if someone not obviously (but is) disabled perfectly legally parks in a disabled bay & another driver jumps to the wrong conclusion & berates them is wrong.

I just think there is also an anti-science element that like to throw the 'maskivist' type of slur about like confetti. It's the type of word that I'd expect the Donald to use for example. If the below story is true, as I haven't verified it, then many of the protestors are the types I'm referring to.

Anti-maskers protest in Birmingham as city's infection rate doubles in a week

Speakers told the crowd to tell restaurants they were 'Mickey Mouse' as part of track and trace efforts.

metro.co.uk

In a nutshell, I feel balance, calm & the best science is what is needed, as well as researching thoroughly, in a non partisan manner, the existential threats we face that I outlined earlier. We live in a relatively free society & it is incumbent on us as responsible citizens to hold our representatives to account & to literally save our home & way of life.

 

[adc82140]

What's your view on young people aged 11-16 being asked to wear face coverings in a secondary school settings when using the corridors (which will typically be around 8 times per day)?

Again, utterly pointless and potentially counter productive. Really they should have 8 to 10 disposable masks to use each day, with clinical waste bins in each classroom to dispose of them, alongside hand wash g stations. But that ain't gonna happen.

I cast my mind back 30 years to the nasties that could be found in the bottom of my school bag. Imagine pulling a face covering out from that

 

[yorksrob]

"If anyone dies..."

AAAAARGH!

"Remember to mark where you have buried your casualties so that they can be reburied at a later date"

 

[Richard Scott]

Again, utterly pointless and potentially counter productive. Really they should have 8 to 10 disposable masks to use each day, with clinical waste bins in each classroom to dispose of them, alongside hand wash g stations. But that ain't gonna happen.

I cast my mind back 30 years to the nasties that could be found in the bottom of my school bag. Imagine pulling a face covering out from that

I know of a few schools that are expecting students to wear coverings.

 

[Journeyman]

"Remember to mark where you have buried your casualties so that they can be reburied at a later date"

Followed by that terrifying jingle...