UK face coverings discussion

[Baxenden Bank]

No, you can’t.

I’d suggest nobody attempts that approach on a train I’m driving, if I walk through to use the John. One of us will certainly be leaving the train, I’ll leave it to you to decide who that might be...

If customers walking through a restaurant to use the toilet have to put a mask on, why shouldn't train drivers? Do they have special virus repellent properties?

 

[DB]

If customers walking through a restaurant to use the toilet have to put a mask on, why shouldn't train drivers? Do they have special virus repellent properties?

Asking the wrong question here - the more useful one is why customers walking through a restaurant should need to. Still no sign of the 'growing evidence' claimed back in July

 

[trebor79]

Which is why, if the Government feels the law necessary, a proper exemption process must be implemented.

[1] I wouldn't reduce the list; I consider mental health to be a medical reason.

But that's impossible, because not all exemptons are specifically medical, and even some of those that are would in some cases require input from specialist medics - and they simply don't have the time to waste on this pointless theatre.

And in the legislation, example reasonable excuse c:
P removes their face covering to avoid harm or injury, or the risk of harm or injury, to themselves or others.

I believe there is a risk that a damp snotty cloth over my face will risk harm to me or others by breeding and spreading pathogens.

How do I get an exemption certificate from a doctor for that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If customers walking through a restaurant to use the toilet have to put a mask on, why shouldn't train drivers? Do they have special virus repellent properties?

Exactly.

The law should be that you must, whoever you are, wear a mask in all indoor places to which the public have access, unless medically exempt and unless you are, at that precise time, eating or drinking. No others. So no mask in the cab, but if you're going into the passenger compartment, mask. Out of respect if nothing else; not doing so shows disrespect. It says "I can't be bothered protecting you from the virus if I have it".

Including all staff. Including Police. Including the Queen if she's there.

Keep it simple, keep it respectful, avoid hypocrisy.

And in the legislation, example reasonable excuse c:
P removes their face covering to avoid harm or injury, or the risk of harm or injury, to themselves or others.

I'd remove that one. Masks do not harm or injure people who would not otherwise be entitled to an exemption.

The idea that they amass infection to infect you is frankly nonsensical; the only infection they may amass is infection that is coming from your exhalations, so you're already infected with it.

 

[MattA7]

I was looking at mask exemption lanyards On eBay earlier today due the the fact some supermarkets are going to start employing covid marshals at the doors and although Most are reasonably priced one guy was charging around £30 for a credit card sized bit of paper basically.

 

[trebor79]

The idea that they amass infection to infect you is frankly nonsensical; the only infection they may amass is infection that is coming from your exhalations, so you're already infected with it.

So it's completely impossible that some bacteria could land on my mask and start multiplying on the moist warm cloth that has some mucus and spittle on it as a food source?
A few bacteria up my nose will be taken care of by my immune system. A few thousand might make me unwell.
I'm already pretty certain I've had at.least 1 chest infection as a direct result of mask wearing.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Asking the wrong question here - the more useful one is why customers walking through a restaurant should need to. Still no sign of the 'growing evidence' claimed back in July

I agree, especially with all the issues around it not being worn properly and not being a clean, fresh mask each time.

But, the government tells me there is benefit to me/others in wearing a mask as I walk through a building occupied by the public. A train driver in a restaurant would be subject to the same rules. A passenger walking through a train is expected to wear a mask, so why not rail staff? (except open areas of platforms etc) - now that shop staff are expected to wear one all day long, so should other staff in similar situations. Not necessarily in the front or back cabs, but in all enclosed public areas.

 

[MikeWM]

Latest regulations have landed

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1026/contents/made

Contains the pub/restaurant nonsense, the requirement for employees in various places to now wear, fines doubling, etc. Nothing unexpected that I can see given the previous announcements.

Top fine is now £6,400. Fines like that is very much *not* how FPNs were supposed to work.

 

[Bantamzen]

Latest regulations have landed

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1026/contents/made

Contains the pub/restaurant nonsense, the requirement for employees in various places to now wear, fines doubling, etc. Nothing unexpected that I can see given the previous announcements.

Top fine is now £6,400. Fines like that is very much *not* how FPNs were supposed to work.

Seems to me that the amendments are more about raising money than anything else. Are the government hoping that enough people get caught out and fined to cover the £300+ billion funding hole...???

 

[HSTEd]

Wonderful, Fixed Penalty notices equivalent to substantial fraction of annual salaries for many people in our society.

Yet another travesty of justice for the sake of the boomers.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I was looking at mask exemption lanyards On eBay earlier today due the the fact some supermarkets are going to start employing covid marshals at the doors and although Most are reasonably priced one guy was charging around £30 for a credit card sized bit of paper basically.

They are about £6 for the lanyard, plastic card and wallet from the sunflower site direct

HDS - Global

The Hidden Disabilities Sunflower is a discreet sign that the wearer has a hidden disability and may need additional support

hiddendisabilitiesstore.com

 

[bramling]

Which is why, if the Government feels the law necessary, a proper exemption process must be implemented.

As for your own position I reiterate that I believe it should be the rule that railway staff in the passenger compartment must comply unless exempt (and if exempt, a visor should be considered), and that I hope this is the law as soon as possible. It really needs simplifying and standardising - if you are in an indoor public place (a place to which the public have access) you must wear, unless exempt for medical reasons[1] and unless you are, at that time, eating or drinking.

And if you would throw a passenger off for simply politely expressing the view that you should be wearing a mask when in their presence (unless you are exempt on one of the medical grounds), a view I wholly agree with, then I would consider you out of order in doing so and would hope your employer would take appropriate action if you did do that. Unless you are going to put in place circumstances so you can ensure you remain 2m away from them at all times, of course, e.g. using the facilities before you allow boarding at the terminus.

FWIW, I am very pleased shop workers will need to wear on the shop floor - I have become thoroughly bored of the gross hypocrisy of them walking round the shop floor, not distancing e.g. leaning over you as you shop to stack shelves, and not wearing anything.

[1] I wouldn't reduce the list; I consider mental health to be a medical reason.

I can sort of see your point about shop-floor staff simply from a consistency point of view, though my solution differs in that I simply wouldn’t have the requirement for *anyone*. I really wouldn’t want to spend all day on a shop floor in a mask though.

With the exception of guards (who presumably also have the option at present to remain in cabs as far as possible) train staff do not directly interact with passengers, so there is no purpose whatsoever. It may well be the case that there have been complaints going in about staff travelling on the cushions, which is probably why we’re now seeing some TOCs barricading off sections of trains to accommodate such staff.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Latest regulations have landed

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1026/contents/made

Contains the pub/restaurant nonsense, the requirement for employees in various places to now wear, fines doubling, etc. Nothing unexpected that I can see given the previous announcements.

Top fine is now £6,400. Fines like that is very much *not* how FPNs were supposed to work.

You will have to break the law, and be caught, and be fined, six times to receive the maximum fine. That takes some real effort given that a simple 'I'm exempt' is a lawful reason not to wear one, that fines are a last resort after 'educate etc', and that very few people are authorised to issue the fines. For an employee, yes you could rack up six in a working week, but you need to be particularly awkward to neither change your ways nor find ways of proving to your tormentor that you genuinely are exempt - in which case the fines, if unpaid, would never get to court or be quashed.

 

[Jamesrob637]

What happens if you have a mask on you, but wear it more at your discretion? I mean yesterday in my local Asda, I wore it the whole time within the supermarket doors, so to speak, but took it off (and dangled it over my wrist) walking up and down the passageway linking the covered ground floor car park to the superstore itself.

 

[35B]

Shops are not required to enforce it - they don't need to ask at all, and if they do then they should not be asking for proof - read the government guidance. If staff are ending up in a difficult position it's the fault of them or their employer.

But nor are shops required not to enforce it - they have the right to set their own rules for who they will admit into their premises. That's not about enforcement of the law, as staff at a shop are not empowered to enforce this particular law; it is a shop enforcing a standard on its customers. And if, as @Essan suggests is the case, many of those who refuse to wear are neither exempt, nor engaging in protest, but simply being awkward, then it's quite likely that those are customers that store doesn't want anyway.

As for the question of protest, it would be nice if some of those objecting to masks made more of an effort to be civil in their disagreement, rather than continuing to deride anyone who dares disagree with them.

 

[43066]

Which is why, if the Government feels the law necessary, a proper exemption process must be implemented.

As for your own position I reiterate that I believe it should be the rule that railway staff in the passenger compartment must comply unless exempt (and if exempt, a visor should be considered), and that I hope this is the law as soon as possible. It really needs simplifying and standardising - if you are in an indoor public place (a place to which the public have access) you must wear, unless exempt for medical reasons[1] and unless you are, at that time, eating or drinking.

[1] I wouldn't reduce the list; I consider mental health to be a medical reason.

My position is somewhat unusual in that I’m exempt for reasons beyond being railstaff, for reasons I’d rather not go into (but could provide ample proof from a doctor to that effect). I still don’t believe it should be necessary for people in my position to bother doctors in order to provide a “certificate”.

If customers walking through a restaurant to use the toilet have to put a mask on, why shouldn't train drivers? Do they have special virus repellent properties?

We don’t have virus repellent properties, but we have “this train isn’t turning a wheel” properties. And those properties tend to become very expensive very quickly for our employers.

The person who served you a bad burger in Wetherspoons wont shortly be driving you around at two miles per minute...

If I was confronted by a passenger in the manner you describe, I’d have no hesitation in calling control and informing them it was no longer safe me to drive vehicles with hundreds of passengers on them at high speed. That would be fully supported by management at all TOCs.

Out of respect if nothing else; not doing so shows disrespect. It says "I can't be bothered protecting you from the virus if I have it".

I take the point about the lack of consistency, but I thought you’d now accepted that masks make little to no difference?

 

[DB]

But nor are shops required not to enforce it - they have the right to set their own rules for who they will admit into their premises. That's not about enforcement of the law, as staff at a shop are not empowered to enforce this particular law; it is a shop enforcing a standard on its customers. And if, as @Essan suggests is the case, many of those who refuse to wear are neither exempt, nor engaging in protest, but simply being awkward, then it's quite likely that those are customers that store doesn't want anyway.

As for the question of protest, it would be nice if some of those objecting to masks made more of an effort to be civil in their disagreement, rather than continuing to deride anyone who dares disagree with them.

The fact remains that they should not be asking for any justification - at most, they can ask whether someone is exempt - and that is as far as it goes - they have no right to ask for specific reasons.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What happens if you have a mask on you, but wear it more at your discretion? I mean yesterday in my local Asda, I wore it the whole time within the supermarket doors, so to speak, but took it off (and dangled it over my wrist) walking up and down the passageway linking the covered ground floor car park to the superstore itself.

I can't speak for that specific example, but nearly all of the shoppers I have seen put the mask on walking across the car park going to the store, and take it off as soon as they leave the door on the way out. A small number may wear them until they reach their car. I have seen one elderly man (known to have an equally elderly, wheelchair using wife) wearing his mask all the way up the estate and home. That is in no way critical of him for doing so by the way.

A covered walkway may be exempt if it is not fully enclosed (as per the smoking regulations), but if I had worn one in the car park, I doubt I would bother removing it for the short section of walkway to then put it on again. Asda, may of course, insert their own rules for use of their property.

 

[DustyBin]

What happens if you have a mask on you, but wear it more at your discretion? I mean yesterday in my local Asda, I wore it the whole time within the supermarket doors, so to speak, but took it off (and dangled it over my wrist) walking up and down the passageway linking the covered ground floor car park to the superstore itself.

I suspect carrying a mask, or having one in your posession, would be seen as an admission of guilt (i.e. the person is not exempt) by some people. At the very least it risks causing you more hassle than simply not posessing one. I raised this with a relative a couple of weeks ago, she is genuinely exempt but wears one occasionally more to avoid confrontation than anything. I advised her to get a lanyard as selective mask wearing seems a little risky in the current climate.

EDIT: The above assumes that masks are mandated in the area in question, if not that's a different matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My position is somewhat unusual in that I’m exempt for reasons beyond being railstaff, for reasons I’d rather not go into (but could provide ample proof from a doctor to that effect). I still don’t believe it should be necessary for people in my position to bother doctors in order to provide a “certificate”.

Fair enough, then you should indeed not wear one.

I take the point about the lack of consistency, but I thought you’d now accepted that masks make little to no difference?

I'm swaying away from them (though think there *could* be a viral load effect) but I do think that as long as they are required people should be wearing.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

My position is somewhat unusual in that I’m exempt for reasons beyond being railstaff, for reasons I’d rather not go into (but could provide ample proof from a doctor to that effect). I still don’t believe it should be necessary for people in my position to bother doctors in order to provide a “certificate”.



We don’t have virus repellent properties, but we have “this train isn’t turning a wheel” properties. And those properties tend to become very expensive very quickly for our employers.

The person who served you a bad burger in Wetherspoons wont shortly be driving you around at two miles per minute...

If I was confronted by a passenger in the manner you describe, I’d have no hesitation in calling control and informing them it was no longer safe me to drive vehicles with hundreds of passengers on them at high speed. That would be fully supported by management at all TOCs.



I take the point about the lack of consistency, but I thought you’d now accepted that masks make little to no difference?

In that case you are exempt then, as you would be walking through the restaurant or wherever. I'm not going round being all vigilante about it and checking up on people. If they are trying it on, it's still none of my business.

But who mentioned you being confronted?

I thought you were threatening to have passengers thrown off, rather than throwing your toys out of the pram.

The person who isn't driving me at two miles per minute today may well be serving me bad burgers in Wetherspoons tomorrow.

 

[trebor79]

As for the question of protest, it would be nice if some of those objecting to masks made more of an effort to be civil in their disagreement, rather than continuing to deride anyone who dares disagree with them.

There is far more abuse thrown at non-mask wearers by mask enthusiasts, at least in the online arena. I haven't been challenged, or seen anybody challenged, for not wearing a mask in the real world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is far more abuse thrown at non-mask wearers by mask enthusiasts, at least in the online arena. I haven't been challenged, or seen anybody challenged, for not wearing a mask in the real world.

Quite possibly because if as a keyboard warrior you offend someone you can't be in receipt of a thump.

 

[35B]

There is far more abuse thrown at non-mask wearers by mask enthusiasts, at least in the online arena. I haven't been challenged, or seen anybody challenged, for not wearing a mask in the real world.

My sampling must be skewed then

 

[Domh245]

But who mentioned you being confronted?

Can I now go into a shop and demand to know why a staff member isn't wearing a mask.

Going into places and "demanding to know why" would come across pretty confrontationally...

I really don't see why people feel obliged to try and take up other people's non-mask wearing themselves. People in positions of authority (train guards/supermarket bouncers) I can understand but don't like, but random members of the public confronting people?

 

[adc82140]

Despite being near flawless since March, my local Asda have finally lost the plot this morning with this exchange....

Staff: Where is your mask?
Customer: I don't need one, i'm exempt.
Staff: Okay but from tomorrow you will need to bring information about what is wrong with you.

Words fail me.

Ok. This should be the response :

Staff: where is the information about what is wrong with you?

Customer : please can I see a written record of your confidentiality clause in your contract and your e-learning certificate regarding the Caldicott principles of medical data management? Then I will tell you about my medical condition.

(just for the record this is what every health service employee who handles medical records has available, from switchboard operator to consultant. Of course no one ever asks to see them because it is assumed that if you work in a hospital you don't go passing on information about patients. But I wouldn't like to say the same about a supermarket security guard who is currently laid off from the nightclubs)

 

[43066]

In that case you are exempt then, as you would be walking through the restaurant or wherever. I'm not going round being all vigilante about it and checking up on people. If they are trying it on, it's still none of my business.

I’m glad to hear it!

I thought you were threatening to have passengers thrown off, rather than throwing your toys out of the pram.

I can assure you I take my job extremely seriously and I have no hesitation in stating I’m unfit to drive. I have had passengers thrown off before - and wouldn’t hesitate to do so again, on those rare occasions where it’s sadly necessary.

The person who isn't driving me at two miles per minute today may well be serving me bad burgers in Wetherspoons tomorrow.

The person who refuses to drive you might well be perfectly competent at their job, and might just have netted (not grossed, netted) £5k for four weeks’ worth of work, realised they’re onto a mighty good thing, and have no plans to change career anytime soon, to serve burgers in a pub .

 

[DB]

The person who refuses to drive you might well be perfectly competent at their job, and might just have netted (not grossed, netted) £5k for four weeks’ worth of work, realised they’re onto a mighty good thing, and have no plans to change career anytime soon, to serve burgers in a pub .

And if they get so wound up that they don't think they can drive safely at that point, they are entirely correct to refuse to do so.

 

[bramling]

And if they get so wound up that they don't think they can drive safely at that point, they are entirely correct to refuse to do so.

Anyone on a train who causes problems because the driver isn’t wearing a mask really should be finding an alternative way to travel. Having said that, my place is certainly getting complaints coming in about “why are drivers not wearing masks in their cabs?”.

 

[nlogax]

As for the question of protest, it would be nice if some of those objecting to masks made more of an effort to be civil in their disagreement, rather than continuing to deride anyone who dares disagree with them.

Being pro-mask I've received no direct angst from anti-maskers and broadly I've seen nothing more than slightly daft banter about 'face nappies'.. am I missing something more pointed and unpleasant?

The person who refuses to drive you might well be perfectly competent at their job, and might just have netted (not grossed, netted) £5k for four weeks’ worth of work, realised they’re onto a mighty good thing, and have no plans to change career anytime soon, to serve burgers in a pub .

This working in IT thing is knackering.. I could happily mull a change of career