UK face coverings discussion

[Bantamzen]

Erm, hasn't the copper-lined mask idea already been tried by another company & debunked? Hmmm....

 

[big_rig]

Erm, hasn't the copper-lined mask idea already been tried by another company & debunked? Hmmm....

Yeah, I remember it being promoted in a very unsubtle manner by its creators in the papers a while back.

There is a real cottage industry going on when you scrape below the surface a bit on Twitter and such when it comes to masks and the virus in general. Nutritionists turned epidemiologists (amusingly they always wear lab coats in their pictures) selling books, their own branded masks, I’ve even seen doctors in the UK and US getting in on it. Making more ‘tweet threads’ go viral = more book/branded product promotion. But alas it’s ‘the science’ so must not criticise!

 

[island]

New face mask that kills coronavirus could be available by December | ITV News

The mask has a copper lining embedded in it which releases ions to kill the virus if they come into contact with it. | ITV News Central

www.itv.com

What are your views and thoughts on this new type of mask that might work even better than the current ones we wear?

P.S. I'll slightly amend the reference tomorrow

I’ll be waiting to see the scientific peer-reviewed paper that backs up the claim.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I’ll be waiting to see the scientific peer-reviewed paper that backs up the claim.

The Adverising Standards Authority already got involved with a similar product

‘Misleading and unsubstantiated’ advert for reusable copper face masks banned - Evening Express

An advert making “unsubstantiated claims” that a reusable copper face mask could kill coronavirus particles and protect its wearer has been banned for being misleading.

www.eveningexpress.co.uk

An advert making “unsubstantiated claims” that a reusable copper face mask could kill coronavirus particles and protect its wearer has been banned for being misleading.

The Easylife Group Ltd advert appeared in The Sun newspaper on June 19, claiming the masks, infused with copper wire, provide “protection against bacteria and viruses”.

It is the second advert from the Easylife Group that the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) has banned for being misleading, after another ad was placed in the same newspaper in August.

 

[greyman42]

Yeah, I remember it being promoted in a very unsubtle manner by its creators in the papers a while back.

There is a real cottage industry going on when you scrape below the surface a bit on Twitter and such when it comes to masks and the virus in general. Nutritionists turned epidemiologists (amusingly they always wear lab coats in their pictures) selling books, their own branded masks, I’ve even seen doctors in the UK and US getting in on it. Making more ‘tweet threads’ go viral = more book/branded product promotion. But alas it’s ‘the science’ so must not criticise!

Well if people are daft enough to waste their money on this sort of tat then more fool them.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Well if people are daft enough to waste their money on this sort of tat then more fool them.

Perhaps one could pop a Duracell battery inside a mask and use it like a gobstopper?

 

[VauxhallandI]

My council are denying the fact that the law states that shops should have their signage including a statement that exemptions are allowed.

This is the view of their legal council.

What next? Where do I go?

 

[Horizon22]

Related, GTR has done an enforcement trial suggesting 90% of passengers are already wearing face coverings, rising to 98% when challenged. It doesn't clearly state how many are exempt but suggests 1-2%.

Trial to enforce face covering rules sees 98.4 per cent success rate

Great Northern, Southeastern, Southern and Thameslink worked with the BTP to enforce face covering rules over an eight-week period.

www.globalrailwayreview.com

Four train operators – Great Northern, Southeastern, Southern and Thameslink – have been working with the British Transport Police on the pilot in and around London. Now approaching its final week, the pilot will conclude as increased coronavirus restrictions remain in place across Britain and while key workers, students and school children continue to rely on public transport.

So far, the trial has found that:

- The vast majority – 90.8 per cent of people – are already complying with face covering regulations
- This rose to 98.4 per cent after people not wearing masks were spoken to
- Only 0.2 per cent of people failed to comply and were either removed from the train/station or issued a penalty notice.

 

[bramling]

Related, GTR has done an enforcement trial suggesting 90% of passengers are already wearing face coverings, rising to 98% when challenged. It doesn't clearly state how many are exempt but suggests 1-2%.

Trial to enforce face covering rules sees 98.4 per cent success rate

Great Northern, Southeastern, Southern and Thameslink worked with the BTP to enforce face covering rules over an eight-week period.

www.globalrailwayreview.com

I’ve been using GTR on and off over the period concerned, and see a rather different reality.

 

[island]

My council are denying the fact that the law states that shops should have their signage including a statement that exemptions are allowed.

This is the view of their legal council.

What next? Where do I go?

The theoretical next step would be to take judicial review proceedings against the council, but that is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

 

[Yew]

The results of the large danish study have been published and found no statistically significant differences in transmission:


Spectator Article

Landmark Danish study finds no significant effect for facemask wearers

Do face masks work? Earlier this year, the UK government decided that masks could play a significant role in stopping Covid-19 and made masks mandatory in a number of public places. But are these policies backed by the scientific evidence? Yesterday marked the publication of a long-delayed trial...

www.spectator.co.uk

In the end, there was no statistically significant difference between those who wore masks and those who did not when it came to being infected by Covid-19. 1.8 per cent of those wearing masks caught Covid, compared to 2.1 per cent of the control group. As a result, it seems that any effect masks have on preventing the spread of the disease in the community is small.

Original paper

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 174, No 3

Background: Observational evidence suggests that mask wearing mitigates transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). It is uncertain if this observed association arises through protection of uninfected wearers (protective effect), via reduced transmission from...

www.acpjournals.org

A total of 3030 participants were randomly assigned to the recommendation to wear masks, and 2994 were assigned to control; 4862 completed the study. Infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%). The between-group difference was −0.3 percentage point (95% CI, −1.2 to 0.4 percentage point; P = 0.38) (odds ratio, 0.82 [CI, 0.54 to 1.23]; P = 0.33). Multiple imputation accounting for loss to follow-up yielded similar results. Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection

 

[westv]

Didn't that study look into infections of those masked rather than transmission from those masked?

 

[MikeWM]

Didn't that study look into infections of those masked rather than transmission from those masked?

Yes, so unfortunately it doesn't offer anything to counter the pernicious 'protecting others' narrative.

One point worth noticing though is that the masked part of the study were using high-grade surgical masks. That 'proper' masks didn't have any statistically significant effect on infection rates for those wearing them is an interesting result.

 

[A Challenge]

My council are denying the fact that the law states that shops should have their signage including a statement that exemptions are allowed.

This is the view of their legal council.

What next? Where do I go?

Some people would just go to the press and get them to write a nice headline like "Council denies disabled people mask exemptions" (yes I know that isn't quite what's been said, I'm imagining a tabloid headline)!

 

[kristiang85]

I've flown Turkish Airlines a few times this month, and they are insanely militant on mask wearing. One man had to take off his homemade fabric mask and wear a "medical" one - but there is no way the ones they were giving out were anywhere near medical grade. They looked exactly the same as the ones I bought off the internet for 5p a piece.

I now realise that it's around the 6 hour mark my ears start really hurting from the elastic on these things, so I'm not flying further than that in one go whilst these stupid rules are in place. I can guarantee that being sat with my masked face 40cm from another person's masked face, probably actually pushing our breath out from the sides into each other, makes not one iota of difference on a plane.

 

[jtuk]

Didn't that study look into infections of those masked rather than transmission from those masked?

Sorry, I didn't realise that the average bit of cloth only worked in one direction

 

[big_rig]

There has been some good sport to be had in noting how exacting in their criticism of this study the mask brigade who uncritically share infographics as evidence have been. Greenhalgh did a Tweet-thread ripping into it where she made a point of refusing to even link to the study, that's how flawed and dangerous it supposedly is. RCT bad, mannequin 'coughing' with a sock on its 'mouth' good, infographic of people pissing on each other even better. Very, very strange people.

 

[joncombe]

The theoretical next step would be to take judicial review proceedings against the council, but that is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

Raise a complaint to the Council. If they don't uphold it you can take it to the Ombudsman. However don't be surprised if the process takes months.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Raise a complaint to the Council. If they don't uphold it you can take it to the Ombudsman. However don't be surprised if the process takes months.

Yes my next move would be a formal complaint that seems to be the way to do most of these things. First the formal complaint then onwards.

 

[yorkie]

Related, GTR has done an enforcement trial suggesting 90% of passengers are already wearing face coverings, rising to 98% when challenged. It doesn't clearly state how many are exempt but suggests 1-2%.

Trial to enforce face covering rules sees 98.4 per cent success rate

Great Northern, Southeastern, Southern and Thameslink worked with the BTP to enforce face covering rules over an eight-week period.

www.globalrailwayreview.com

It says 90.8% compliance, so that should include those stating they are covered by exemptions.

Given around 10% of the population is likely covered by exemptions, and I've not seen anyone in any shop without a face covering for many months now, compliance in York must be close to 100%, with people who are covered by exemptions generally opting to wear face coverings anyway (whether through personal choice or feeling pressured to do so, I am not sure, but I suspect the latter).

 

[trainophile]

It says 90.8% compliance, so that should include those stating they are covered by exemptions.

Given around 10% of the population is likely covered by exemptions, and I've not seen anyone in any shop without a face covering for many months now, compliance in York must be close to 100%, with people who are covered by exemptions generally opting to wear face coverings anyway (whether through personal choice or feeling pressured to do so, I am not sure, but I suspect the latter).

Slightly confused by the fact that "people who are covered by exemptions" opting to wear face coverings anyway due to "personal choice or feeling pressured". I thought exemptions would only apply to people who are actually unable to wear them, in which case they can hardly opt to wear them to avoid confrontation.

 

[westv]

Sorry, I didn't realise that the average bit of cloth only worked in one direction

Well yes - sort of. Have you not been reading this thread?

 

[johnnychips]

Slightly confused by the fact that "people who are covered by exemptions" opting to wear face coverings anyway due to "personal choice or feeling pressured". I thought exemptions would only apply to people who are actually unable to wear them, in which case they can hardly opt to wear them to avoid confrontation.

I think maybe you could bear one for five minutes to nip into a shop to buy something, but find an hour on a train unbearable. Everybody is different. I’m so used to mine now I often forget to take it off when I don’t have to wear it, but that doesn’t mean I agree with them.

 

[Phil R]

The results of the large danish study have been published and found no statistically significant differences in transmission:


Spectator Article

Landmark Danish study finds no significant effect for facemask wearers

Do face masks work? Earlier this year, the UK government decided that masks could play a significant role in stopping Covid-19 and made masks mandatory in a number of public places. But are these policies backed by the scientific evidence? Yesterday marked the publication of a long-delayed trial...

www.spectator.co.uk

Original paper

Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: A Randomized Controlled Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 174, No 3

Background: Observational evidence suggests that mask wearing mitigates transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). It is uncertain if this observed association arises through protection of uninfected wearers (protective effect), via reduced transmission from...

www.acpjournals.org

Hi all, first time poster here, but longish time lurker, been following this thread with interest.

Many thanks for that Yew. Long awaited results much as many of us had suspected they might be then.

Masks 'may' do something in terms of reducing viral load but this survey doesn't give any particular pointers from an initial skimread. I stick with my own empirical experience that maskers tend to lose a sense of their surroundings and distance perceptions that would likely offset any positives in any case.

 

[Scotrail12]

When I hear things like this, I get very nervous about Biden as president.

Wearing a mask isn't a political statement — it's a patriotic duty.

 

[NorthOxonian]

When I hear things like this, I get very nervous about Biden as president.

He is extremely pro-mask, even wanting them mandatory outdoors.

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...ould-wear-a-mask-when-outside?t=1605836884538

Joe Biden is calling for everyone in the United States to wear a mask, well into the fall.

"Every single American should be wearing a mask when they're outside for the next three months, at a minimum," Biden said Thursday afternoon in remarks in Wilmington, Del. "Every governor should mandate mandatory mask-wearing. The estimates by the experts are it will save over 40,000 lives."

His comments came after a briefing on the coronavirus pandemic with his new running mate, Sen. Kamala Harris of California, and public health experts. More than 165,000 Americans have died because of COVID-19.

Unlike President Trump, who took months to wear a mask publicly, Biden has long been consistently wearing a mask and encouraging others to do so. But he's never been so explicit about mandates and a timeline.

In an interview with KDKA in Pittsburgh in June, the presumptive Democratic nominee said he would require masks if he were president.

"I would insist that everybody out in public be wearing that mask. Anyone to reopen would have to make sure that they walked into a business that had masks," he said

The former vice president said he would use the power of the executive branch to do everything possible to make mask-wearing in public a requirement — though mandates have come at the state level, and many governors have opted against such measures.

In remarks at a June event in Wilmington, Biden also said there should be better guidance from the administration around mask-wearing.

"We absolutely need a clear message from the very top of our federal government that everyone needs to wear a mask in public, period," he said.

But his statement Thursday was the most direct comment he's given to date.

"It's not about your rights; it's about your responsibilities," Biden said. He tried to present the issue as a matter of patriotism to protect fellow Americans.

In a news conference later Thursday, Trump took issue with Biden's nationwide call for mask-wearing, ignoring that the Democrat urged governors to issue mandates.

"[Biden] does not identify what authority the president has to issue such a mandate," Trump said, "or why we would be stepping on governors throughout our country."

Trump added: "If the president has the unilateral power to order every single citizen to cover their face in nearly all instances, what other powers does he have?"

An NBC News/Survey Monkey poll in late July found a majority of Americans said they wear a mask in public, but there are clear partisan, racial and age divides. Far more Democrats, nonwhites and older people said they wear masks every time they leave the house.

Biden and Harris, his vice presidential pick, collectively spoke for about eight minutes Thursday, and walked away without taking questions from the press.

Then again, the whole thing is far more political over there. I expect those in certain quarters of American politics will continue to wear them as a political statement long after this is over.

 

[island]

Let’s just hope that all doesn’t catch on over here. The masktivists in America don’t recognize exemptions or face visors either.

 

[hst43102]

When I hear things like this, I get very nervous about Biden as president.

The more I read into their Covid policies, the more I seem to be aligned to Donald Trump. Never thought I would be saying that...

 

[bramling]

The more I read into their Covid policies, the more I seem to be aligned to Donald Trump. Never thought I would be saying that...

It does seem to be the case that America has swapped one idiot for another, just different sorts of same.

 

[hst43102]

It does seem to be the case that America has swapped one idiot for another, just different sorts of same.

Have to see which idiot is more dangerous. They both have a lot of potential!

Back onto topic, does anyone know what the risks are of getting fined for not wearing a face mask on public transport? I'm going to be making a long journey on the train in the next few weeks and I don't look forward to having a face mask on for the whole journey.