UK face coverings discussion

[trainophile]

Well that will be a long way off but I suspect like in the Far East you will see more mask wearing in the cold and flu season, out of consideration for others, even if Covid has a vaccine.

I find that a touching but probably unrealistic faith in human nature, at least in the UK. Very few people seem to give a damn about others these days.

 

[big_rig]

Behind a paywall, but this is not a good sign. I wonder if I can get out of this given next to nobody is in my office, on account of the Railway not being ‘safe enough’ in their eyes?

Government will consider mandatory masks in offices, says Robert Jenrick

Housing Secretary's suggestion marks shift in tone from July, when Matt Hancock said measure would not be considered

www.telegraph.co.uk

Mandatory masks in offices will be considered by the Government, says Robert Jenrick

The mandatory wearing of masks in offices "will be taken into consideration" by ministers, the Housing Secretary has said...

 

[DB]

I find that a touching but probably unrealistic faith in human nature, at least in the UK. Very few people seem to give a damn about others these days.

So you expect people to do something out of concern for others, even though there is no evidence that the thing concerned (mask wearing) actually makes any difference anyway?

 

[trainophile]

So you expect people to do something out of concern for others, even though there is no evidence that the thing concerned (mask wearing) actually makes any difference anyway?

No I don't, I was replying to the previous poster who suggested that people might wear masks ongoing in the flu season out of consideration for others. I was countering that idea!

 

[johnnychips]

I am in the Howard Arms in Sheffield at the moment having a relaxing glass of wine after work. I am delighted that putting my mask on to walk to the toilet ten yards away and back will stop this deadly virus. There are three other people in on a Thursday in what is normally a busy pub, especially as England v Wales is on TV.

 

[Cowley]

Can we put a discussion about cycle helmets somewhere else?

Yes definitely!

 

[45107]

So you expect people to do something out of concern for others, even though there is no evidence that the thing concerned (mask wearing) actually makes any difference anyway?

No because we are in a me, me, me society. This is led by the COVID-deniers & anti-maskers.
I suspect that the reason that exemptions are not mentioned is that those with exemptions are aware of them. The notice is an attempt to deter the chancers who couldn’t care less about anyone but themselves and will not wear a mask.

I am not authoritarian but we should have adopted a no nonsense attitude like the Spanish (or even the Isle of Man). No exemptions. We are all in this together.

I will now get the popcorn out & sit back with a beer.

 

[bramling]

Behind a paywall, but this is not a good sign. I wonder if I can get out of this given next to nobody is in my office, on account of the Railway not being ‘safe enough’ in their eyes?

Government will consider mandatory masks in offices, says Robert Jenrick

Housing Secretary's suggestion marks shift in tone from July, when Matt Hancock said measure would not be considered

www.telegraph.co.uk

One step closer to civil disobedience.

 

[initiation]

No because we are in a me, me, me society. This is led by the COVID-deniers & anti-maskers.

I'd argue the me, me, me society is led by those lockdown enthusiasts who want to stop themselves from likely getting a mild illness but don't mind millions of jobs losses, missed cancer screenings, delayed hip operations or people suffering with mental health issues. It is those selfish lockdown people who want this dragged out for as long as possible.

But hey, if it saves one life...

 

[Richard Scott]

I'd argue the me, me, me society is led by those lockdown enthusiasts who want to stop themselves from likely getting a mild illness but don't mind millions of jobs losses, missed cancer screenings, delayed hip operations or people suffering with mental health issues. It is those selfish lockdown people who want this dragged out for as long as possible.

But hey, if it saves one life...

Agreed, too many think this is a one horse race and only thing that matters is the virus. If you disagree you are instantly labelled as selfish.

 

[DB]

No because we are in a me, me, me society. This is led by the COVID-deniers & anti-maskers.
I suspect that the reason that exemptions are not mentioned is that those with exemptions are aware of them. The notice is an attempt to deter the chancers who couldn’t care less about anyone but themselves and will not wear a mask.

I am not authoritarian but we should have adopted a no nonsense attitude like the Spanish (or even the Isle of Man). No exemptions. We are all in this together.

I will now get the popcorn out & sit back with a beer.

So you think it's fine to accuse someone of being selfish for not being keen on a measure which appears to have no acutal evidence to demonstrate that it makes any difference?

You don't think it might be a good idea to mention exemptions in order to try to put off vigilantes? Among the more hard of thinking, this sort of official announcement is clearly going to lead to an attitude of regarding anyone without a mask as a 'chancer'.

You are not an authoritarian? Well, you certainly do a good job of sounding like one! We are very much not 'all in this together': many groups have been treated appallingly (students being a recent example).

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Lothian Buses are recommending customers who are exempt from wearing a face covering to carry proof of exemption.

https://twitter.com/DrBruceScott/status/1314273376601616384

 

[NorthOxonian]

Lothian Buses are recommending customers who are exempt from wearing a face covering to carry proof of exemption.

https://twitter.com/DrBruceScott/status/1314273376601616384

View attachment 84446

Though having actually read their website, it seems their definition of "proof of exemption" is just an exemption card, as opposed to a proper doctor's note. In which case, I'm inclined to agree with them, albeit not their phrasing. A system like that should cause absolutely no trouble for the legitimately exempt, but may put off at least some of the chancers.

 

[43066]

Though having actually read their website, it seems their definition of "proof of exemption" is just an exemption card, as opposed to a proper doctor's note. In which case, I'm inclined to agree with them, albeit not their phrasing. A system like that should cause absolutely no trouble for the legitimately exempt, but may put off at least some of the chancers.

If someone declares that they’re exempt, they *are* exempt, as a matter of law (some of the categories of exemption/reasonable excuse are largely subjective). The government guidelines also specifically state that “proof” of exemption shouldn’t generally be asked for.

So why can’t transport companies (and their staff) just accept that?

 

[Bantamzen]

No because we are in a me, me, me society. This is led by the COVID-deniers & anti-maskers.
I suspect that the reason that exemptions are not mentioned is that those with exemptions are aware of them. The notice is an attempt to deter the chancers who couldn’t care less about anyone but themselves and will not wear a mask.

I am not authoritarian but we should have adopted a no nonsense attitude like the Spanish (or even the Isle of Man). No exemptions. We are all in this together.

I will now get the popcorn out & sit back with a beer.

I'd argue the me, me, me society is led by those lockdown enthusiasts who want to stop themselves from likely getting a mild illness but don't mind millions of jobs losses, missed cancer screenings, delayed hip operations or people suffering with mental health issues. It is those selfish lockdown people who want this dragged out for as long as possible.

But hey, if it saves one life...

Indeed, its pretty much my experience that it is those quite happy to put everyone else's livelihoods on the line along with those that aggressively pursue restrictions to protect themselves others that are the selfish ones. More so because they cannot see what damage many of these measures are actually having, and why eventually the damage could find its way back to the very health services they claim to support.

 

[island]

If someone declares that they’re exempt, they *are* exempt, as a matter of law (some of the categories of exemption/reasonable excuse are largely subjective). The government guidelines also specifically state that “proof” of exemption shouldn’t generally be asked for.

So why can’t transport companies (and their staff) just accept that?

The ticket says consider carrying it, which I am OK with them asking. It reduces the need for staff to challenge people and other passengers’ perception that people are breaking the rules.

 

[43066]

The ticket says consider carrying it, which I am OK with them asking. It reduces the need for staff to challenge people and other passengers’ perception that people are breaking the rules.

My concern is that, if this kind of thing becomes too widespread, it will have the effect of introducing a de facto requirement to carry an exemption pass via the back door.

Staff really should not be enforcing this, and other passengers simply need to mind their own business.

 

[jumble]

In California they seem to enforce it: https://twitter.com/CAgovernor/status/1312437371460173825

Is this the same man who sits behind the counter at Fullerton station and idiotically insists on seeing your ID although has no way of verifying if your UK License is real or fake if you want to buy a ticket but does not realise that you can buy the same ticket from the ticket machine on the platform

 

[LowLevel]

If someone declares that they’re exempt, they *are* exempt, as a matter of law (some of the categories of exemption/reasonable excuse are largely subjective). The government guidelines also specifically state that “proof” of exemption shouldn’t generally be asked for.

So why can’t transport companies (and their staff) just accept that?

The other way to look at it is that the staff are scared. At least one conductor and a couple of drivers at my depot are in a pretty poor state with COVID. This brings it closer to home.

We've been told repeatedly that indoor exposure increases risk and face coverings all round may reduce risk.

Not everyone trawls the Internet looking for evidence that Government measures are appropriate and then decries them as pointless, I would say the majority of people will take them on their word that this might help keep them safe during their period of self deemed greater risk.

This then causes greater irritation and lack of tolerance when for example you board a Saturday evening train and 75 percent of passengers are paying no attention to any social distancing whatsoever let alone face coverings, not to mention leaving you a massive puddle of sick on a table.

This concerns you even more and, wanting to feel protected, the lackadaisical approach to exemptions frustrates you and you end up with boiling over from the other side of the table.

The majority of my colleagues who guard trains are strongly in favour of any measure, no matter how tenuous, that might make them slightly safer in their work and thus the open ended exemptions for anyone who feels like that way inclined are what annoys them as rightly or wrongly they feel as if they're taking liberties with their own safety.

You might not agree but if you can't understand why people who are stuck in a bus or train all day long with people they have no control over might feel this way then that is a bit odd, regardless of your own views.

I do sometimes feel this thread should be renamed the 'Face Covering Exemption Thread' as most of the posts are decrying the fact that a seeming chunk of the population doesn't see the exemptions as sacred.

In the mean time, I keep grafting away *shrug*

 

[Bantamzen]

The other way to look at it is that the staff are scared. At least one conductor and a couple of drivers at my depot are in a pretty poor state with COVID. This brings it closer to home.

We've been told repeatedly that indoor exposure increases risk and face coverings all round may reduce risk.

Not everyone trawls the Internet looking for evidence that Government measures are appropriate and then decries them as pointless, I would say the majority of people will take them on their word that this might help keep them safe during their period of self deemed greater risk.

This then causes greater irritation and lack of tolerance when for example you board a Saturday evening train and 75 percent of passengers are paying no attention to any social distancing whatsoever let alone face coverings, not to mention leaving you a massive puddle of sick on a table.

This concerns you even more and, wanting to feel protected, the lackadaisical approach to exemptions frustrates you and you end up with boiling over from the other side of the table.

The majority of my colleagues who guard trains are strongly in favour of any measure, no matter how tenuous, that might make them slightly safer in their work and thus the open ended exemptions for anyone who feels like that way inclined are what annoys them as rightly or wrongly they feel as if they're taking liberties with their own safety.

You might not agree but if you can't understand why people who are stuck in a bus or train all day long with people they have no control over might feel this way then that is a bit odd, regardless of your own views.

I do sometimes feel this thread should be renamed the 'Face Covering Exemption Thread' as most of the posts are decrying the fact that a seeming chunk of the population doesn't see the exemptions as sacred.

In the mean time, I keep grafting away *shrug*

Its maybe understandable that people in your profession are concerned. But exemptions exist, they are allowed & they do not have to been proven. And there could be a lot more people than you might imagine that have legitimate exemptions. Try putting yourselves in their situation, they face increasing hostility from the public and now possibly from TOC staff. And what if using public transport is their only means of getting about? How would you feel if suddenly you were treat as some leper, with people glaring and shouting at you for simply going about your business? Unless the government mandates that these people either have to carry proof (not going to happen), or order them to stay indoors, I'm afraid its something you & your colleagues will have to deal with.

Just as a side note re social distancing, unless capacities are allowed to get back to normal, you may find that in the coming years a lot of rail staff may become excess to requirements. When your work is publicly funded, you are always first in the firing line when cuts come. Just so that you are aware...

 

[LAX54]

I'd argue the me, me, me society is led by those lockdown enthusiasts who want to stop themselves from likely getting a mild illness but don't mind millions of jobs losses, missed cancer screenings, delayed hip operations or people suffering with mental health issues. It is those selfish lockdown people who want this dragged out for as long as possible.

But hey, if it saves one life...

Did they say on the TV news last night 4 MILLION people are still waiting for NHS treatment ? 4 million !

 

[LowLevel]

Its maybe understandable that people in your profession are concerned. But exemptions exist, they are allowed & they do not have to been proven. And there could be a lot more people than you might imagine that have legitimate exemptions. Try putting yourselves in their situation, they face increasing hostility from the public and now possibly from TOC staff. And what if using public transport is their only means of getting about? How would you feel if suddenly you were treat as some leper, with people glaring and shouting at you for simply going about your business? Unless the government mandates that these people either have to carry proof (not going to happen), or order them to stay indoors, I'm afraid its something you & your colleagues will have to deal with.

Just as a side note re social distancing, unless capacities are allowed to get back to normal, you may find that in the coming years a lot of rail staff may become excess to requirements. When your work is publicly funded, you are always first in the firing line when cuts come. Just so that you are aware...

Personally I don't give a toss and I don't need a lecture. I'm quite happy and feel safe enough in my work. I do however feel inclined where a point of view I understand but not necessarily agree with is I feel not represented to put it out there. A group of people nodding like Churchill dogs and saying "oh yes!" whenever someone posts "they're ignoring the exemptions!!!" is a total waste of time if you want a proper discussion.

I've explained my own perspective enough times - I just get on with it. I believe in the rule of law so I carry a box of spare masks, I don't hassle those with exemptions, I take to task anyone who does, and I comply with the rules myself. If someone says "I've forgotten/lost my mask" with a look of genuine horror I give them for free out of the stash in a sealed tub in my bag. I do still think the continental approach of get on with it unless you really can't in which case you'll be looked after like those shielding would have been less open to interpretation even though it would just move the problem from one side of things to the other.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Personally I don't give a toss and I don't need a lecture. I'm quite happy and feel safe enough in my work. I do however feel inclined where a point of view I understand but not necessarily agree with is I feel not represented to put it out there. A group of people nodding like Churchill dogs and saying "oh yes!" whenever someone posts "they're ignoring the exemptions!!!" is a total waste of time if you want a proper discussion.

I've explained my own perspective enough times - I just get on with it. I believe in the rule of law so I carry a box of spare masks, I don't hassle those with exemptions, I take to task anyone who does, and I comply with the rules myself. If someone says "I've forgotten/lost my mask" with a look of genuine horror I give them for free out of the stash in a sealed tub in my bag. I do still think the continental approach of get on with it unless you really can't in which case you'll be looked after like those shielding would have been less open to interpretation even though it would just move the problem from one side of things to the other.

To be fair your post felt a wee bit like a lecture.

It does all smack a little bit like the same situation we have with ticket enforcement.

Ignore the big groups and 95% sure rule breakers and go in hard on the easy to target individuals that are not so guilty if guilty at all - not pointing the finger at you.

 

[LowLevel]

To be fair your post felt a wee bit like a lecture.

It does all smack a little bit like the same situation we have with ticket enforcement.

Ignore the big groups and 95% sure rule breakers and go in hard on the easy to target individuals that are not so guilty if guilty at all - not pointing the finger at you.

In my opinion it is helpful to remember all positions in a discussion. The feelings of those in workplaces no doubt will not be considered in law and hold no legal standing unlike exemptions, for right or for wrong, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be remembered when presenting them as unpleasant/incompetent or whatever.

 

[NorthOxonian]

If someone declares that they’re exempt, they *are* exempt, as a matter of law (some of the categories of exemption/reasonable excuse are largely subjective). The government guidelines also specifically state that “proof” of exemption shouldn’t generally be asked for.

So why can’t transport companies (and their staff) just accept that?

I understand where you're coming from, but I think having to have some form of card is a good idea. Even if your reason for being exempt is subjective, this would not be a difficult task. It wouldn't require any actual safeguards, the mere fact that you'd have to do something beyond just claiming to be exempt would put a proportion of the chancers off (there's nothing to stop them getting a card, but most of them won't bother).

 

[packermac]

If someone declares that they’re exempt, they *are* exempt, as a matter of law (some of the categories of exemption/reasonable excuse are largely subjective). The government guidelines also specifically state that “proof” of exemption shouldn’t generally be asked for.

So why can’t transport companies (and their staff) just accept that?

Being Scotland of course the rules there appear to be different. A look at
The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Scotland) Regulations 2020
Seems to imply the only exemptions are
unable to put on, wear or remove a face covering—

(i)because of any physical or mental illness or impairment or disability (within the meaning of section 6 of the Equality Act 2010), or

(ii)without severe distress,

No mention is made of any "self certification" of these exemptions, so maybe Lothian Buses are being quite generous.

 

[DB]

Being Scotland of course the rules there appear to be different. A look at
The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (Restrictions and Requirements) (Scotland) Regulations 2020
Seems to imply the only exemptions are
unable to put on, wear or remove a face covering—

(i)because of any physical or mental illness or impairment or disability (within the meaning of section 6 of the Equality Act 2010), or

(ii)without severe distress,

No mention is made of any "self certification" of these exemptions, so maybe Lothian Buses are being quite generous.

'without severe distress' is entirely subjective, so in practice no different to the Engliah law.

And as has been pointed out many times, any excemption is self certifiied, and doctors will not give exemption letters (and should not be asked to).

The Scotland guidance is here:

Archive Timeline

www.gov.scot

The relevant bit states:

Those exempt under the guidance and regulations do not have to prove their exemption and should not be made to wear a face covering or denied access to public transport, shops or public places. We ask for people to be aware of the exemptions and to treat each other with kindness.

So no, Lothian buses are not being 'quite generous' - very much the opposite: they are doing the exact opposite to what the official government guidance says.

 

[GodAtum]

Had some BTP jobsworths at Faygate station tell me to put my mask on. This is the least used station in West Sussex with only 20 odd people per day The next train was in 30 minutes.

 

[yorkie]

My understanding of face masks in public places is that if people have genuine medical conditions that make it difficult to wear one, then they have to prove it ...

Who told you that?

 

[bramling]

Who told you that?

It would be interesting to know if there have been any test cases regarding the proof.

In other words, has anyone declared themselves exempt, been fined, and then gone through to a day in court?

What I’m trying to say is has anyone been challenged, said that they’re exempt, and the matter has been taken further?

I have a suspicion the next thing is going to be compulsory cards, though not officially issued as such, just that one has to display the downloadable ones. TFL seems to be edging towards this.