Undercounting of passenger numbers on busy pay-onboard lines?

[Signal_Box]

Its funny, paying £1.50 by card is now much quicker than paying £1.50 by cash! I know it didn't used to be before contactless lol

I was there in the dark days before contactless payment, and cards took ages !

 

[Killingworth]

It's not only pay on-board lines. Most stations on Northern lines have TVMs. Most people now have debit/credit cards (and many smartphones) and can pay contactless so the majority should not be paying on-board, and aren't.

On newer stock passenger counting is automatic so the number is fairly easy to calculate. On some trains the number paying may be less than 75% for a combination of various reasons and that is increasingly known thanks to that technology. I understand Northern are targeting areas where most fare evasion takes place.

Taking my line, the Hope Valley, as an example.

1. Only Piccadilly has regular barrier checks so the guard is the only control to prevent free loading.
2. At weekends the trains are so crowded that guards may have difficulty getting through one coach let alone the entire train.
3. It may be that the sheer numbers getting on and off together may reduce the accuracy of counts.
4. When a pair of units without corridor connection are sent out the guard can't get from one unit to the other anyway.
5. Many regular users count on that and choose the front unit to avoid paying.
6. On a recent train I became aware that the party of 6 sitting behind me were all travelling on a variety of rail industry free passes - they were comparing who had what! That's subject for another thread.

I see groups clearly trying to evade payment, a favourite possibly to take a promise to pay ticket from the TVM as a get out of jail free card.

 

[kentrailman]

How about island line from Ryde pier head to Ryde Esplanade.. Or coming the other way, lymington pier to lymington town.
In both cases, not enough time to buy a ticket after ferry arrives and before train leaves and only two or three minutes for any guard to sell a train full of tickets.

 

[RPI]

I was there in the dark days before contactless payment, and cards took ages !

Likewise, Avantix with the giant chip and pin devices that took an age to connect! Or "tap the numbers in mate" when it declines

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your get the funny bugger wanting to pay the £1.50 single on a card

With Bristol being London-in-the-Westcountry* at times, I'm surprised anyone pays cash. Certainly I would pay card for any railway transaction, to use cash would not enter my mind.

* Brighton = London-on-Sea.

How about island line from Ryde pier head to Ryde Esplanade.. Or coming the other way, lymington pier to lymington town.
In both cases, not enough time to buy a ticket after ferry arrives and before train leaves and only two or three minutes for any guard to sell a train full of tickets.

Last time I used it it did occur to me that due to the tight connection time it is likely to carry a lot of fare dodgers along the pier. To the point where I think gating Esplanade would make sense (not for PFs, just to sell them tickets before they can get out). You don't want to gate the Pier Head as needing to buy before boarding if you don't have a through ticket would make the connection even more useless.

It would also help to make the fare more reasonable; £2 is excessive for 5 minutes' walk. £1 would be reasonable. You could potentially even have a dedicated machine selling singles to Esplanade at Pier Head with a simple interface - i.e. insert a pound coin or tap contactless and a ticket spits out, nothing to press first.

 

[Dai Corner]

With Bristol being London-in-the-Westcountry* at times, I'm surprised anyone pays cash. Certainly I would pay card for any railway transaction, to use cash would not enter my mind.

* Brighton = London-on-Sea.

That's what made the Bristol Pound obsolete. It's hoped to replace it with an electronic system, Bristol Pay

 

[Signal_Box]

Likewise, Avantix with the giant chip and pin devices that took an age to connect! Or "tap the numbers in mate" when it declines

Yes lol good old days lol

To be fair GWR have or at least did have a super revenue team based at Temple Meads. Almost all the Avonmouth / Beach trains had at least one sometimes two ATEs which was making an impact on revenue collection.

The weekly tickets soon added up on Monday morning with all the industrial estate workers ready and waiting with the exact money and their photo cards smashing passengers, unlike the Clifton crew who’d try and pay on a card which they knew would decline for the 75p YP card singles !

 

[RPI]

Yes lol good old days lol

To be fair GWR have or at least did have a super revenue team based at Temple Meads. Almost all the Avonmouth / Beach trains had at least one sometimes two ATEs which was making an impact on revenue collection.

The weekly tickets soon added up on Monday morning with all the industrial estate workers ready and waiting with the exact money and their photo cards smashing passengers, unlike the Clifton crew who’d try and pay on a card which they knew would decline for the 75p YP card singles !

There is a dedicated link of TE's at Bristol that just do the Beach line I believe.

 

[Signal_Box]

There is a dedicated link of TE's at Bristol that just do the Beach line I believe.

Ah fantastic, there used to be a realtl good bunch of ATEs at Bristol quite a few part time as well.

 

[Grecian 1998]

With Bristol being London-in-the-Westcountry* at times, I'm surprised anyone pays cash. Certainly I would pay card for any railway transaction, to use cash would not enter my mind.

Bristol is quite variable. Cash seems to be on the way out in the city centre and areas such as Clifton, but is still a major player in many of the less affluent suburbs. In Bedminster where I live, it seems to be more popular in the less gentrified eastern part than the more gentrified area around Southville. I suspect this may in part be because folk on tighter budgets prefer handing over physical tokens to ensure they can afford what they're buying.

Back OT...

There is a dedicated link of TE's at Bristol that just do the Beach line I believe.

Makes sense. Exmouth - Paignton is a route with 3-4 coach trains and frequent stops, but only the main two Exeter stations and Newton Abbot are gated. As trains can be popular all day for much of the year, TEs are a visible presence. Free rides, whether deliberate or not, would be rife otherwise as the guard can't realistically collect many fares between stations before it's time to open the doors again.

Fares on the Beach line are generally lower and Clifton Down seems to be by far the most popular intermediate station, but I'd assume a TE could quickly pay for themselves.

 

[Horizon22]

A old favourite of mine used to be Reigate - Redhill & Redhill - Tonbridge. Lots of “pay if challenged” people and easy fares if you could be bothered to try.

But yes there’s no doubt some underreporting, especially on smaller, yet busier (at certain times of day) suburban branches with frequent stops, running 2-4 car services.

 

[urbophile]

How about island line from Ryde pier head to Ryde Esplanade.. Or coming the other way, lymington pier to lymington town.
In both cases, not enough time to buy a ticket after ferry arrives and before train leaves and only two or three minutes for any guard to sell a train full of tickets.

In the first case, why on earth doesn't the ferry ticket include the train fare along the pier? No-one is going to be travelling to Ryde Pier as a destination.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Wasn't there plans at some point to install barriers at Worcester Foregate Street to try and catch those passengers from Droitwich whom think payment is optional?

Not just Droitwich - it's a major issue from Pershore and Evesham, and I presume Malvern too.

 

[paul1609]

In the first case, why on earth doesn't the ferry ticket include the train fare along the pier? No-one is going to be travelling to Ryde Pier as a destination.

Loads of people will be picked up or dropped off at the ferry you can book a taxi using the free phone in the Portsmouth Waiting room. The railway is a pretty niche market nowadays.

 

[PeterY]

I would imagine it's the same for most branch lines. Mine would be St Albans Abbey to Watford North. Barriers at Watford Junction.

 

[markymark2000]

My daily commute to Clifton Down from Stapleton Road is usually very busy with students doing the same. There's usually only one guard for the entire 3 full-and-standing carriages, and they manage to get about halfway through the first one before the train empties out at Clifton. This is common knowledge, and so people will crowd into the front carriage, where the guard will almost certainly not make their way to them, for a free ride: the general attitude is "I'd pay if they let me, but if they won't make the effort to take my money I won't give it to them".

Not Bristol but in Wales there is still a big culture on local lines for 'I will only pay if challenged' and when buses go on the line, 'its a free bus, you don't have to pay'. Areas of Wales are absolutely rife with ticketless travellers (well, people who refuse to pay before they board). Trainline hasn't helped things at all as now people buy tickets but only activate them when challenged

It’s surprising that they don’t do a revenue block at Clifton Down occasionally - if they do, I’ve never met one (though my days of using it weekday mornings are now ancient history). Filton Abbey Wood regularly has one.

Revenue blocks seem to be very rare and they seem to be scared of work. I've given TOCs lots of intel on fare dodgers previously and the staff all know it but revenue won't do blocks because it's not within their limited working hours or it's not somewhere they want to go.

One of many areas of the railways which should be reviewed. So much lost revenue. It's often where tickets are cheapest too. £5 here and there but £5 a few times per week. Over a year, it adds up. It's too well known how to avoid paying including finding ways around paying fines. If they do pay the fines, it's so low that it's still cheaper to pay the occasional fine than always pay for travel. Hopefully the Govts increased fine will kick that into action. There was meant to be a further announcement on that in Spring 2022 but I don't think that we have heard anything.

 

[pne]

Taking my line, the Hope Valley, as an example.

2. At weekends the trains are so crowded that guards may have difficulty getting through one coach let alone the entire train.

4. When a pair of units without corridor connection are sent out the guard can't get from one unit to the other anyway.

How about island line from Ryde pier head to Ryde Esplanade.. Or coming the other way, lymington pier to lymington town.
In both cases, not enough time to buy a ticket after ferry arrives and before train leaves and only two or three minutes for any guard to sell a train full of tickets.

Exmouth - Paignton is a route with 3-4 coach trains and frequent stops, but only the main two Exeter stations and Newton Abbot are gated. As trains can be popular all day for much of the year, TEs are a visible presence. Free rides, whether deliberate or not, would be rife otherwise as the guard can't realistically collect many fares between stations before it's time to open the doors again.

Those all sound like an argument for having more people on board selling tickets and/or more people checking them!

In the "pair of units" case, have one in each half, for example.

On services known to be full, have one for each coach. Or even two, if the distances between stations are short enough and the number of people requiring tickets is high enough that you need to spread the workload over multiple shoulders.

(On the Hamburg S-Bahn, for example, we don't have tickets sold on board, nor regular revenue inspections, but when they do happen, they usually come in a group of six or so for one coach in order to get through as many people as possible before the next stop.)

If the increased number of tickets sold with two, three, four, or six staff members per train rather than one doesn't make up for the additional salaries, then perhaps it's more economical for the TOC to simply shrug their collective shoulders and accept the fact that not everyone will have a ticket.

 

[Kite159]

The problem with Northern, is running gangway less units together on certain routes, 150/1s & 195s (and in the past the pacers). The guard stays in the rear unit so those who pay when challenged aim straight for the front unit for a reduced chance of getting gripped.

I remember being on a train from Blackpool South in 2019 time with an assistant ticket examiner in the front unit of a pair of 150s, must have easily made their wages with the tickets they sold.

Similar on TPE when they run pairs of 185s

 

[urbophile]

Loads of people will be picked up or dropped off at the ferry you can book a taxi using the free phone in the Portsmouth Waiting room. The railway is a pretty niche market nowadays.

OK, I didn't realise that. But there are bus passengers too: can buses travel along the pier or do passengers have to walk or get the train to Esplanade?

 

[paul1609]

OK, I didn't realise that. But there are bus passengers too: can buses travel along the pier or do passengers have to walk or get the train to Esplanade?

No the piers light vehicles only. Bus passengers have to walk or get the train.

 

[kentrailman]

OK, I didn't realise that. But there are bus passengers too: can buses travel along the pier or do passengers have to walk or get the train to Esplanade?

No, buses cannot travel on the pier.
I think previous suggestion of a 'tap here to pay single fare to Ryde esplanade' thingy at platform entrance that folks could quickly tap card on might be perfect ..especially if it had adult and child tap buttons that you could tap a few times each on as needed.. Perhaps could be done without needing to implement full contactless system .. E.g. if it printed a small quick ticket ..

 

[Dr Day]

If the increased number of tickets sold with two, three, four, or six staff members per train rather than one doesn't make up for the additional salaries, then perhaps it's more economical for the TOC to simply shrug their collective shoulders and accept the fact that not everyone will have a ticket.

I don't have access to data to support one way or the other, but it is unfortunately highly likely that this is the case particularly in areas of short distance, low value fares. ie whilst revenue may be walking out of the door it isn't cost effective to chase after it. It is more than the pure salaries - it is other employee costs such as NI, uniform, pension etc and ticket selling equipment, credit card fees, commissions etc. Sensible penalty fares schemes with sufficient means for people to actually buy tickets would solve some of the problems, but again there needs to be a financial incentive to invest, including in the back office scheme management of the collection of the penalties, legal costs and customer service complaints handling.

In the grand scheme of things, the industry could say in response to the OP 'so what' - if passengers value their service they should pay for it - if they don't then they shouldn't complain if it gets cut back or not invested in due to under-estimated numbers.

 

[urbophile]

If the ferries were run as part of an integrated transport system, as used to be the case until naked capitalism took over, it would be perfectly easy to include an element for the short train journey within the ferry fare. It should still be, with a modicum of co-operation.

 

[XAM2175]

It's too well known how to avoid paying including finding ways around paying fines. If they do pay the fines, it's so low that it's still cheaper to pay the occasional fine than always pay for travel. Hopefully the Govts increased fine will kick that into action.

Are you talking about Court-imposed fines, or just using the wrong word for Penalty Fares?

 

[markymark2000]

Are you talking about Court-imposed fines, or just using the wrong word for Penalty Fares?

Penalty fares which are issued on the train.

 

[paul1609]

If the ferries were run as part of an integrated transport system, as used to be the case until naked capitalism took over, it would be perfectly easy to include an element for the short train journey within the ferry fare. It should still be, with a modicum of co-operation.

The problem is the decline in passenger numbers which began long before privatisation and the introduction of Fastcat services vice a traditional ferry boat has made the railway irrelevant but improved the experience for the normal passenger. The sane decision would be to close the railway and have an automated people mover to the Esplanade and bus station.

 

[urbophile]

The problem is the decline in passenger numbers which began long before privatisation and the introduction of Fastcat services vice a traditional ferry boat has made the railway irrelevant but improved the experience for the normal passenger. The sane decision would be to close the railway and have an automated people mover to the Esplanade and bus station.

Either way, there shouldn't be a need for people to pay an additional fare for the short journey.

 

[DelW]

Either way, there shouldn't be a need for people to pay an additional fare for the short journey.

There are through train+ferry (and train+hovercraft) tickets from mainland stations to any Island Line station. I think that with a Railcard they can be cheaper than the single Wightlink fare.

 

[VideozVideoz]

By contrast, when I travel from Kidsgrove towards Manchester on Northern's services, the conductor will have checked all the tickets before the train has even reached Congleton, only five minutes up the line.

I find northern conductors on that route very efficient and it’s almost impossible to make it between stations without a ticket

 

[philthetube]

A simple but effective solution is the guard mixing up their routine by sometimes starting their checks from the front rather than the back, round here quite a few Northern guards do that to surprise the freeloaders from time to time

This would just mean that the few at the front would pay and not the ones at the back.