Underload SPADS & Stadler 745EMU/755BMU

[GaryMG]

Am coming to the end of driver training course and been tasked with a project! To which end......

I'm looking at underload & Stadler 745/755s, Non technical skills, human factors, SPADs and SPAD mitigation.

Stadler 745/755 CABs are comfortable, everything is ergonomically designed so that everything is in reach and the trains take away so much of what I have been told was the nuts and bolts of driving legacy stock, as such what are your thoughts on Stadler 745/755 underload due to the technology on this traction type?

I would be interested to hear how you mitigate risks, i.e risk triggered commentary, DRA use, etc....

If anyone is prepared to share, I would be very interested to hear about any personal accounts of SPADS, TPWS overspeeds, how & why they occurred and what you learnt from the experience, or indeed anything safety related.

Many thanks.

 

[O L Leigh]

I would have thought that the "nuts and bolts of driving" were things like controlling the train speed, observing and obeying signals and speed restrictions, and making sure you stop when and where you should. As such, you are no more insulated from them in a Stadler than a Sprinter.

As a non-Stadler driver, I'm wondering just what it is about them that leads to any concern about underload. Things like ASDO are only an aid and prevent the doors being opened on the wrong side, etc, but they don't relieve the driver from having to stop in the right position and select the correct doors just as we did with legacy units. Are your more experienced colleagues mourning the loss of non-WSP tread-braked stock? No doubt there's less of an art to stopping modern trains in indifferent rail conditions, but ultimately this is to the benefit of passengers, not drivers. Also, large parts of the GA network have been enjoying such modern conveniences as disc brakes and WSP since the 1980s. I just hope that Stadler haven't fallen into the trap of other train builders by claiming that their trains don't slide, because they will. It's physics, Jim.

Unless there is some data linking incidents to driver underload due to new technology, I would be very hesitant to make any such link. I've had periods of what I now recognise to have been underload (although not leading to an incident), even when driving legacy stock, and have always considered it to be primarily a self-management issue. It's not hard to let your concentration slip when you're clipping along on greens miles from your next stop. I would also argue that driver underloading is not a new phenomenon and has plagued the railways ever since Brunel was in short trousers.

I think that the mitigations that would work with new stock are the same mitigations that applied with legacy stock. Risk-triggered commentary, checking and re-checking the stopping pattern, making yourself aware of the train length, having a comfortable environment (correct heat and seat adjustment) and correct use of the DRA are all useful techniques. Ultimately each driver will find their own individual ways of guarding against incidents and will do what works best for them. Having previously driven some very uncomfortable trains in the past, my own view is that a better and more ergonomic cab environment should be an aid to improved driver performance.

But those are just my views. What do you think?

 

[ComUtoR]

Unless there is some data linking incidents to driver underload due to new technology, I would be very hesitant to make any such link. I've had periods of what I now recognise to have been underload (although not leading to an incident), even when driving legacy stock, and have always considered it to be primarily a self-management issue. It's not hard to let your concentration slip when you're clipping along on greens miles from your next stop. I would also argue that driver underloading is not a new phenomenon and has plagued the railways ever since Brunel was in short trousers.

As a non-Stadler Driver, but a modern unit Driver I kinda understand the concern about underload and new technology. However, what I have found (purely *anecdotally of course) that our newer units have the least safety of the line incidents but they have created other issues and sometimes increased the risk in other areas.


*statistically available if you know where to look. @GaryMG I'm sure someone at your TOC will know where to look.

 

[TurboMan]

Have you looked at the RSSB Underload Toolbox? It was developed from the T1133 research project. You will need an RSSB account to access those links, but if your TOC is a corporate member, you should be able to set one up (free of charge) with your company email address if you have one.

 

[dan4291]

Have you looked at the RSSB Underload Toolbox? It was developed from the T1133 research project. You will need an RSSB account to access those links, but if your TOC is a corporate member, you should be able to set one up (free of charge) with your company email address if you have one.

I second this, very useful document for tackling underload. Has various tips to tackle it, including risk-triggered commentary and even chewing gum!

 

[philthetube]

Second everything above,
If you were starting with a clean sheet then I would say, design the cab so it is possible to drive standing up.

 

[TheEdge]

I would have thought that the "nuts and bolts of driving" were things like controlling the train speed, observing and obeying signals and speed restrictions, and making sure you stop when and where you should. As such, you are no more insulated from them in a Stadler than a Sprinter.

And that is in my opinion the biggest part of it.

Unlike the ASL on the 90s or nothing on everything else the FLIRTs really need you to use the speed set and the software makes full use of it. I've tried to drive them with the speed set set a bit high and they don't like it and can be quite unwieldy. Unlike Sprinters where you could use a lower notch to maintain speed the FLIRTs like to eternally accelerate if you try it, even with very low power settings. You end up using the speed set and leaving the unit to it, the East Suffolk used to be art to keep the unit at linespeed and could be quite a challenge, now it just isn't, speed set to 55, done.

If you are driving on restrictive signals obviously it doesn't really play a part but if you are happily cruising along on greens at 55/60/75/90/100 on the dots it gets very easy to tune out and miss something in a way the old stock didn't let you.

 

[Tractor Factor]

Isn't the railway heading towards less "driving" and more "monitoring"?
This is perhaps the phase of trains that are in between.

 

[Audioguy]

Isn't the railway heading towards less "driving" and more "monitoring"?
This is perhaps the phase of trains that are in between.

This reminds me of the "Children of the Magenta Line" concept which was a discussion that came out of the automation of processes on aircraft. Flying airliners had become progressively deskilled until the pilots were merely watching the plane follow a magenta line on a navigation screen. It also meant that when workload was low it became even lower but it also created new and different problems that meant at times the workload could become higher.
https://airfactsjournal.com/2020/09...real-lesson-for-children-of-the-magenta-line/

 

[Tractor Factor]

Indeed, but at the same time Japan's "train monitors" are being watched by the industry very closely.
It'll be a long time before cameras take over and there are no drivers, although I am certain there was a report recently about the Docklands trains and whether that could work for mainline, especially with the recent strike activity.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Indeed, but at the same time Japan's "train monitors" are being watched by the industry very closely.
It'll be a long time before cameras take over and there are no drivers, although I am certain there was a report recently about the Docklands trains and whether that could work for mainline, especially with the recent strike activity.

You realise of course that the DLR system involves a member of staff on board every train.

 

[321over360]

Indeed, but at the same time Japan's "train monitors" are being watched by the industry very closely.
It'll be a long time before cameras take over and there are no drivers, although I am certain there was a report recently about the Docklands trains and whether that could work for mainline, especially with the recent strike activity.

Difference between the DLR and the National Rail network is the DLR isnt doing speeds over 50mph and has fewer places where something could end up on the train given the majority of the DLR network is elevated above ground (excluding parts of the Beckton branch where they are at street level or in a cutting), so the speeds of the DLR trains are safe to not have someone at the front of the train (except during peaks and service disruption) however a mainline train doing 100mph needs someone at the cab at all times even if it was running automatically incase an incident occurred that required the emergency breaks to be applied instantly

 

[driverd]

Am coming to the end of driver training course and been tasked with a project! To which end......

I'm looking at underload & Stadler 745/755s, Non technical skills, human factors, SPADs and SPAD mitigation.

Stadler 745/755 CABs are comfortable, everything is ergonomically designed so that everything is in reach and the trains take away so much of what I have been told was the nuts and bolts of driving legacy stock, as such what are your thoughts on Stadler 745/755 underload due to the technology on this traction type?

I would be interested to hear how you mitigate risks, i.e risk triggered commentary, DRA use, etc....

If anyone is prepared to share, I would be very interested to hear about any personal accounts of SPADS, TPWS overspeeds, how & why they occurred and what you learnt from the experience, or indeed anything safety related.

Many thanks.

So, I don't drive Stadler units or anything with speed set so to that end I can't compare. However, I would say that with more modern units it's a very different job. You go from just driving a train, to monitoring numerous systems - and to that end I find the new units far more engaging to drive.

Eg: on the TCMS screen you have traction unit control, HVAC control, engine monitoring, sub systems etc - all these things can and do throw up faults and so time management etc becomes critical. For example, I'll make a note on my docet to reset HVAC at the next station, or to get a defect in the book etc. These little additional (perhaps seen by some as optional) tasks actually reduce underload significantly in new units - for me, anyway.

Then there's the ASDO. Again, it's a system worth monitoring as it does occasionally get lost, so I'll keep a periodic eye on that one just to make sure it's ticking over nicely.

The drive style of newer units also keeps me on my toes. The extra acceleration and braking capabilities gives me far more discretion as a professional driver to make professional decisions - eg: recovery driving becomes far more possible when running late, or use of reduced power and gradient braking becomes more possible when running to time, as many of our diagrams havent been tightened up or retimed from older stock. As a rule of thumb, I'll try and let the day dictate my driving style, rather than using hard and fast shut off and braking points - it keeps the cogs turning and is way more engaging than just "power to here, brake here". It is, however, worth saying that as a new driver, you absolutely need to cut your teeth and learn your route (typically by hard and fast shut off/brake points or check speeds) before you develop the understanding to make such decisions. I apologise if that sounds horrendously condescending, but its a bit of a sixth sense that naturally comes with time, quite like driving a car and understanding the boundaries/conditions etc and how that skill set develops with experience.

I'm a huge advocate of driving to the day, because for me atleast, it helps me stay tuned in and focusing on what's happening - that won't work for everyone, but it's seen me right for a good few years now.

 

[43066]

Isn't the railway heading towards less "driving" and more "monitoring"?
This is perhaps the phase of trains that are in between.

Not really. It’s still fully traditional “driving”, everywhere apart LU and the GTR core. That will gradually change but over very long timescales.

 

[D365]

Isn't the railway heading towards less "driving" and more "monitoring"?
This is perhaps the phase of trains that are in between.

Not yet, and even ETCS won't change this.

 

[carriageline]

Not yet, and even ETCS won't change this.

If done properly it will, but I fear it won’t be (hence my emphasis!)

I don’t wish anything upon drivers by saying that, but ATO (with a driver in a cab still) does bring benefits

 

[D365]

If done properly it will, but I fear it won’t be (hence my emphasis!)

I don’t wish anything upon drivers by saying that, but ATO (with a driver in a cab still) does bring benefits

Agree, but I'm making a subtle distinction between baseline ETCS and any form of automatic overlay.

Not sure how relevant this is to Stadler units but, engineering-wise, upgrading older vehicles to ATO is a daunting thought...

 

[ComUtoR]

I don’t wish anything upon drivers by saying that, but ATO (with a driver in a cab still) does bring benefits

Many of us welcome it with open arms. Anything that makes my day easier and reduces risk of incident and increases safety, will always get my full support.

 

[43066]

Many of us welcome it with open arms. Anything that makes my day easier and reduces risk of incident and increases safety, will always get my full support.

When ATO comes in, that’s when I’ll be going into the office (if not before!).

 

[XAM2175]

Agree, but I'm making a subtle distinction between baseline ETCS and any form of automatic overlay.

Yes, it's an important one all the same - ETCS in and of itself isn't an ATO system, so it's not going to be like the rollout finishes and the next day everybody's down to "push two buttons and the train does the rest".

Nevertheless, the shift to driving under an ETCS Movement Authority will change a few things about the processes involved in driving - most notable amongst them obviously being that the in-cab display replaces watching for lineside signals - and some extra touches of partial automation (like German-style cruise control) might work their way in, and it will be entirely sensible to assess those changes for the impacts on how drivers manage their attention.

It's not really something that's immediately relevant to the question of driving Class 745 and 755 units today, though.