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Uneven frequencies or poorly co-ordinated headways which cry out to be evened out

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GordonT

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Any glaring examples of services/parts of services, perhaps operated by different TOCs, which if timed differently would provide improved co-ordination and a better overall service to the public? Or services which have scope to be provided on a clockface timetable rather than an untidy/hard to remember timetable?
 
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30907

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Shipley TO Leeds, with the services bunched closely together twice an hour.
But trying to re-do the timetable without requiring an extra unit, let alone pathing it, isn't easy.

Preston-Carlisle, where the passenger services are close together in order to allow decent paths for freight.

PS please can we ignore the Covid-related distortions and refer to long-term timetables?
 

Watershed

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Stoke to Manchester - the pre-Covid timetable had 4 fast services and a stopper each hour.

A brilliant level of service, you might think. Not quite - the departure times were xx05, xx15, xx27 and xx35 off Piccadilly for the fasts, followed by the stopper at xx47. So a half-hour gap in fast services if you were unlucky enough to miss the xx35 (albeit the stopper is 'only' about 15 mins slower than the fast, so is still just about worthwhile taking).

It's similar, if slightly worse in the northbound direction, with fasts at xx20, xx25, xx44 and xx48 followed by the stopper at xx56. So again an effective half-hour wait if you miss the xx48.

As part of Covid timetable reductions, you might have thought that Avanti and XC (the operators of the fast services) would collaborate to ensure that there was still a reasonable service. But no, even today the pattern in most hours is that just the xx44, xx48 (and xx56 stopper) run. Meaning the service is only slightly better than hourly.

Now Stoke to Manchester isn't a huge market, and there are reasons why certain services were removed but not others, but it's just an example of how having lots of trains per hour is useless if they aren't spaced appropriately apart. I'm glad I don't live in Stoke (though that's perhaps not the only reason why! ;))
 

Trainfan2019

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Crewe to Stoke (stopping services via Alsager/Kidsgrove/Longport) - trains usually leave Crewe at 1 minute past the hour (London Northwestern) and 8 minutes past the hour (EMR). Often the EMR train from Newark is late arriving in to Crewe which in turn delays the London Northwestern waiting to leave Crewe.
 

Parallel

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Cardiff Central to Swansea - There are two trains an hour currently timed to depart within about 5 minutes of each other, although at least they have had the sense to path the GWR unit in front, which it didn't used to be. There also was a Cardiff - Bridgend then all stations to Swansea train which no longer seems to run, with one of the TfW West Wales trains picking up the calls every other hour. Still, up to a 55 minute wait between trains for two major cities that are less than an hour apart in travelling time is rather poor.
 

bramling

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Any glaring examples of services/parts of services, perhaps operated by different TOCs, which if timed differently would provided improved co-ordination and a better overall service to the public? Or services which have scope to be provided on a clockface timetable rather than an untidy/hard to remember timetable?

Northern Line, where since September one in every five High Barnet trains now goes to Mill Hill East, giving a 6-minute gap to High Barnet. It hasn’t worked well - Mill Hill users don’t like it because their service has become non-dependable, and Barnet users don’t like it because they get gaps, which grow longer if there’s a cancelled train either side of the 6-minute gap.

It doesn’t help that the through Mill Hill service returned at the same time as Battersea started and which brought its own issues to the service. If they were going to reintroduce a through service it would have been more prudent to let Battersea settle down first.
 

miklcct

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Northern Line, where since September one in every five High Barnet trains now goes to Mill Hill East, giving a 6-minute gap to High Barnet. It hasn’t worked well - Mill Hill users don’t like it because their service has become non-dependable, and Barnet users don’t like it because they get gaps, which grow longer if there’s a cancelled train either side of the 6-minute gap.
Is that because the High Barnet trains are so packed that passengers downstream can't squeeze on the train in peak hours, such that this arrangement is made to ease congestion?
 

Halish Railway

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Leeds to York direct wasn’t the most even pre-Covid, departures being:
xx:08
xx:14
xx:18
xx:27
xx:30
xx:42
xx:52

Hull to Leeds is very bad, with the two departures being separated by 7 minutes, although there are 20 minutes between the two by the time you reach Leeds.
 

A S Leib

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Northern Line, where since September one in every five High Barnet trains now goes to Mill Hill East, giving a 6-minute gap to High Barnet. It hasn’t worked well - Mill Hill users don’t like it because their service has become non-dependable, and Barnet users don’t like it because they get gaps, which grow longer if there’s a cancelled train either side of the 6-minute gap.
On the other hand, Chesham and Amersham services at Moor Park don't depart a minute or two before southbound services from Watford now.

Darlington to Newcastle could stand to be slightly better (4tph with 20 minute waits between the TransPennine and CrossCountry services) and Durham to Newcastle's 3 tph with waits of around half an hour between LNER and TPE services. Before the pandemic the longest wait at Darlington was around fifteen minutes between the nonstop London - York services and the Manchester Airport services, with six trains per hour total.

LNER (Leeds / Lincoln or York) Stevenage - King's Cross services are within seven minutes of each other and were in the same situation pre-pandemic.
 
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The Planner

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Stoke to Manchester - the pre-Covid timetable had 4 fast services and a stopper each hour.

A brilliant level of service, you might think. Not quite - the departure times were xx05, xx15, xx27 and xx35 off Piccadilly for the fasts, followed by the stopper at xx47. So a half-hour gap in fast services if you were unlucky enough to miss the xx35 (albeit the stopper is 'only' about 15 mins slower than the fast, so is still just about worthwhile taking).

It's similar, if slightly worse in the northbound direction, with fasts at xx20, xx25, xx44 and xx48 followed by the stopper at xx56. So again an effective half-hour wait if you miss the xx48.

As part of Covid timetable reductions, you might have thought that Avanti and XC (the operators of the fast services) would collaborate to ensure that there was still a reasonable service. But no, even today the pattern in most hours is that just the xx44, xx48 (and xx56 stopper) run. Meaning the service is only slightly better than hourly.

Now Stoke to Manchester isn't a huge market, and there are reasons why certain services were removed but not others, but it's just an example of how having lots of trains per hour is useless if they aren't spaced appropriately apart. I'm glad I don't live in Stoke (though that's perhaps not the only reason why! ;))
The northbound gaps are better than they were before as prior to Norton Bridge the XC was after the Avanti. The gaps were always going to be like that as you were never going to plan anything behind the stopper as you would catch it up between Stoke and Adswood Road.
 

The exile

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Currently standing at Filton Abbey Wood, noting that the next departure for Temple Meads is not for 30 minutes (08.08) There is then an 08.14 and an 08.27….
 

Watershed

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The northbound gaps are better than they were before as prior to Norton Bridge the XC was after the Avanti. The gaps were always going to be like that as you were never going to plan anything behind the stopper as you would catch it up between Stoke and Adswood Road.
Not really the case though, is it?

If you kept the current timing of the stopper (xx56), but ran one fast such that it fell 3 mins behind the stopper at Adswood Road, and the previous fast 3 mins before the stopper at Stoke, fast services could depart at xx53 and xx12. With another fast at xx33 you would have a near perfect 20 minute frequency.

Of course there are a million and one reasons why it's not been done that way - but the point is that whilst the stopper is slower, it's not to such an extent that half hour gaps are inevitable.
 

MikeWM

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My 'favourite' example which seems destined never to be fixed - Ely to Cambridge on a Sunday. GN service at x57, GA service at x03. Then once the XC services bother to get going they depart at x53. So three trains an hour, but nevertheless a 50-minute gap every hour.
 

northwichcat

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Stoke to Manchester - the pre-Covid timetable had 4 fast services and a stopper each hour.

Problem there is Manchester to London is every 20 minutes and one train per hour goes via Wilmslow. So if Manchester gets a clockface timetable then Stoke doesn't.

Macclesfield to Stoke is even stranger as one London and one Birmingham train an hour stop at Macclesfield. The positive there is disruption at somewhere like Milton Keynes or Wolverhampton doesn't mean all services are affected.

As part of Covid timetable reductions, you might have thought that Avanti and XC (the operators of the fast services) would collaborate to ensure that there was still a reasonable service. But no, even today the pattern in most hours is that just the xx44, xx48 (and xx56 stopper) run. Meaning the service is only slightly better than hourly.

Tbh I don't think Manchester to Stoke provides a lot of passengers for either. They are more bothered about the Stoke passengers travelling southbound and if a passenger travelling from Manchester to Stoke fills up what would otherwise have been an empty seat, then it's a bonus.
 

geoffk

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Stockport to Bolton. Going north the Hazel Grove - Blackpool N and Alderley Edge - Southport are between 5 and 10 minutes apart. From Bolton they are similarly spaced, mostly 10 or 12 minutes apart. But changing either service through the Castlefield corridor would be challenging.
 

Watershed

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Problem there is Manchester to London is every 20 minutes and one train per hour goes via Wilmslow. So if Manchester gets a clockface timetable then Stoke doesn't.
If at least one of the XCs were spaced 20 minutes apart from the London services, you'd have a perfect 20 minute frequency.

Tbh I don't think Manchester to Stoke provides a lot of passengers for either.
No, but it's a bit of a vicious cycle. You're never going to get people relying on the train when poor coordination of service cuts nearly doubles the generalised journey time.
 

CW2

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There is the Northern all-stations service from Manchester to Stoke to fit in as well. That has a 53 minutes journey time and a quick turnaround at each end. Plus the occasional freight, and conflicting moves at Kidsgrove to consider. There really isn't much scope to move to an even-interval timetable.
 

Watershed

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There is the Northern all-stations service from Manchester to Stoke to fit in as well. That has a 53 minutes journey time and a quick turnaround at each end. Plus the occasional freight, and conflicting moves at Kidsgrove to consider. There really isn't much scope to move to an even-interval timetable.
I highlighted above that a 20 minute frequency is already perfectly possible. There is virtually no freight via Macclesfield - just one class 4 and class 6 each day. And the Kidsgrove conflicts really aren't insoluble on a line with a 3 minute headway.

As I said, there are plenty of other reasons why the frequency isn't even, but I certainly think it qualifies for this thread. Particularly given the poor present timetable.
 
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CW2

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I highlighted above that a 20 minute frequency is already perfectly possible. There is virtually no freight via Macclesfield - just one class 4 and class 6 each day. And the Kidsgrove conflicts really aren't insoluble on a line with a 3 minute headway.

As I said, there are plenty of other reasons why the frequency isn't even, but I certainly think it qualifies for this thread. Particularly given the poor present timetable.
The issue is that the Northern stopper entirely occupies the third of the hour where your desired even-interval fast service would fit. You can't have a perfect even-interval service and an all-stations hourly stopper. They occupy the same space on the graph.
(Edit: duplicate post deleted).
 

Grizzly

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Bradford Interchange to Leeds: roughly every 15 minutes in the opposite direction, but towards Leeds the 4 trains an hour are within 32-33 minutes leaving a near 30 minute gap
 

Watershed

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The issue is that the Northern stopper entirely occupies the third of the hour where your desired even-interval fast service would fit. You can't have a perfect even-interval service and an all-stations hourly stopper. They occupy the same space on the graph.
(Edit: duplicate post deleted).
Not if the stopper is overtaken at Adswood Road Jn. See my post above.

You could even have 3tph exactly evenly spaced fast and stopping.

Of course that would be at the detriment of services to other places, but the number of stations between Adswood Road and Stoke is not so high as to prevent an evenly spaced fast service, at least.
 

Revilo

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St Denys to Southampton is generally xx:30 (from Romsey) and xx:31 (from Portsmouth) then nothing until the next xx:30, effectively reducing it to an hourly service. Sometimes it’s a race between the two!
 

CW2

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Not if the stopper is overtaken at Adswood Road Jn. See my post above.

You could even have 3tph exactly evenly spaced fast and stopping.

Of course that would be at the detriment of services to other places, but the number of stations between Adswood Road and Stoke is not so high as to prevent an evenly spaced fast service, at least.
...and what about the turnround time of the stopper at Stoke, whose journey time you have just extended by 6 minutes or more?
 

Watershed

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...and what about the turnround time of the stopper at Stoke, whose journey time you have just extended by 6 minutes or more?
It's currently 16 minutes in the standard hour. It could manage perfectly fine with 10 minutes; the journey time is only around an hour from end to end.

If anything, extending the journey time would help at the Piccadilly end, where the non-interworking nature of the service means that a unit sits blocking up a platform (for most trains of modern lengths) for just under an hour at a time.
 

Grecian 1998

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Westbury - Weymouth varies between hourly and 3 hourly at different times of the day. Admittedly the single line infrastructure couldn't cope with an hourly service - you could probably time trains to pass at Dorchester and Yeovil but it would have absolutely no flexibility whatsoever and would fall apart by 9am every day.

Hardly a busy route in the way of many described above, it would be nice if the maximum interval between services could become 2 hourly.
 

MontyP

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East Midlands Parkway always used to have poorly spaced services. I seem to recall 6 or 7 years ago that all 6 calling services per hour were within 20 mins of each other, followed by 40 mins with no services. The 2 London services were within 6 or 7 mins of each other. They look to be a lot more evenly spaced now
 

class 9

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Dore Station Jct to Sheffield(northbound) xx57 to xx12, 5 trains, then a gap of 20 mins.
 

Peregrine 4903

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Milton Keynes Central to London Euston.

Fast services at xx:47, xx:55, xx:00, xx:03, xx:15 and then nothing again until xx:47 as the xx:42 gets overtaken by the xx:47. Even then, still a half an hour gap between fast services, but then 5 fast services in the other half hour.

Wonder if this will change with Dec 22?
 

Parallel

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Westbury - Weymouth varies between hourly and 3 hourly at different times of the day. Admittedly the single line infrastructure couldn't cope with an hourly service - you could probably time trains to pass at Dorchester and Yeovil but it would have absolutely no flexibility whatsoever and would fall apart by 9am every day.

Hardly a busy route in the way of many described above, it would be nice if the maximum interval between services could become 2 hourly.
It's mainly the services that arrive from Bath and Bristol (from Weymouth) in the morning peak that are hourly, and the same for the evening return - presumably that's when the line was busiest on a standard weekday (historically, anyway). The route is exceptionally busy during the summer holidays and on summer weekends - Pre-COVID, the line was managing a half hourly service towards Weymouth for some of the morning on summer Saturdays (Usual services, GWR HST, SWT 159 and I think an additional short working from Westbury), before returning to two-hourly, and then hourly returns in the evening, but as you say - one delay is all it took for things to go wrong. Trains can pass at Castle Cary, Yeovil Pen Mill, Maiden Newton and Dorchester West. Still, in the usual timetable, two hour gaps (with some three hour gaps) in service between Weymouth/Dorchester and the best located station for Yeovil is poor and is never going to entice passengers to use the services if they have other means of travelling.
 

JRT

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Shipley TO Leeds, with the services bunched closely together twice an hour.
But trying to re-do the timetable without requiring an extra unit, let alone pathing it, isn't easy.
Sunday's Shipley>Bradford service sees 3 tph, but a 41-minute gap every hour.
On other days, late evening Bradford>Shipley has a 55-minute gap I think.

Bradford Interchange to Leeds: roughly every 15 minutes in the opposite direction, but towards Leeds the 4 trains an hour are within 32-33 minutes leaving a near 30 minute gap
I was going to mention the Halifax–Leeds service, the introduction of the Halifax–Hull trains did make it slightly better than the previous timetable, but only by a few minutes.

Hebden Bridge>Bradford Interchange service has 3tph, but up to a 41-minute gap in departure time some hours.
 
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