Uneven passenger distribution on a full length train

[MattRat]

Strange you should mention Liverpool Central. I frequently see the opposite, where a train ready to depart is held up by last minute passengers running down the platform to look for a comparatively empty carriage instead of leaping on at the nearest door. Though I'm sure the other thing happens too.

Herd mentality probably. Since that passenger is on their own, they aren't part of the herd.

 

[3141]

Many years ago, in the days of GNER, I was travelling from Leeds to Stevenage on one of class 373s (the shorter Eurostar EMUs), which was busy because the previous service had been cancelled. I was in the front coach which was less than half full. The train manager announced several times that those who were standing in coaches towards the rear could find seats if they moved to the front of the train, but hardly anybody appeared in the front carriage. I think some people are happier if there's something to complain about. You may remember a chap called Corbyn who was photographed squatting in a vestibule because he and his wife couldn't find seats together....

 

[MattRat]

You may remember a chap called Corbyn who was photographed squatting in a vestibule because he and his wife couldn't find seats together....

I remember because soon after I was on an actually crowed train where I sat under a suitcase rack.

 

[ExRes]

Many years ago, in the days of GNER, I was travelling from Leeds to Stevenage on one of class 373s (the shorter Eurostar EMUs), which was busy because the previous service had been cancelled. I was in the front coach which was less than half full. The train manager announced several times that those who were standing in coaches towards the rear could find seats if they moved to the front of the train, but hardly anybody appeared in the front carriage

Couldn't agree more, I travelled pass from Kings Cross to Doncaster regularly and always went to the spacious, empty front coach, sometimes the front two, on both White Rose and normal services, I was always most grateful to those that couldn't be bothered to walk just a little further

 

[jon0844]

At Kings Cross and Euston, overloading of the London end is due to the persistent habit of late announcement of platforms and too small and few clocks and indicator boards. If they do not give people of less than average walking speed time to reach the front of the train, about half of people will not, plus some will be cautious and the result is predictable.

While that's a factor, yes, in reality it's possible to be on the train for a good few minutes with people walking along the platform quite nicely - and then have loads of people sprinting (and boarding the first set of doors) to get on in time for its dispatch. Ultimately, these are people who were late for the train - as it had been advertised long enough for the bulk of the train to get on comfortably. That also explains why one coach is particularly packed - although at least on a 700 there's usually still the ability to walk through. No chance in a lot of other stock.

By the time the train arrives at Finsbury Park, the same happens to an extent with the middle of the train suffering the worst.

As said above, these people do thankfully make it easy to find seats if you're willing to walk a little. In all my years of travelling, I am amazed that many commuters don't work that out after just a few weeks/months of travel.

 

[Snow1964]

Regarding Waterloo-Weymouth there are other stations eg Southampton Parkway where the platform entrance and exit is near front. From memory none of the main stations have exits or footbridges close to back 2-3 carriages

There was also rather a tradition of telling passengers for stations like New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown to travel in the front (due to shorter platforms). Not sure if your train stopped there, (or had advertised connections for these) but clearly many people that need to change will go to the front on auto pilot, as expect to have to move up further on.

 

[moogal]

At Kings Cross and Euston, overloading of the London end is due to the persistent habit of late announcement of platforms and too small and few clocks and indicator boards. If they do not give people of less than average walking speed time to reach the front of the train, about half of people will not, plus some will be cautious and the result is predictable.

Even when it's not, people still seem to act like the train's about to leave and panic. I had to catch a Sunday evening service out of Euston the other week a good 5+ minutes before departure. 8 car 350, rear 7 coaches full and standing, platform staff calling to people to move down to the front of the train but most people darting in to the first set of doors they could see. I carried on walking and got a window seat in the half-empty front coach and had a pretty comfortable journey.

 

[jon0844]

I see that at WGC with people rushing down to leap on to a Moorgate service that isn't departing for over 10 minutes! Hearing the hustle alarm when the doors close automatically seems to really trigger some people into thinking they're going to miss the train (and if they're coming down the stairs and are still to pass the gateline, one wonders how they think they'd actually make the train if they thought the doors were going to lock anyway!!).

 

[swt_passenger]

Regarding Waterloo-Weymouth there are other stations eg Southampton Parkway where the platform entrance and exit is near front. From memory none of the main stations have exits or footbridges close to back 2-3 carriages

There was also rather a tradition of telling passengers for stations like New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown to travel in the front (due to shorter platforms). Not sure if your train stopped there, (or had advertised connections for these) but clearly many people that need to change will go to the front on auto pilot, as expect to have to move up further on.

At Parkway there are now two footbridges and I’d estimate they’re about 100m apart either side of the centre point of the down platform?

But yes, a number of platforms before Bournemouth are short. Also there’s Fareham where they call on this diversion, so I‘d agree with #13, the announcements about the main split, combined with those about short platforms, probably mean some people just switch off and go to the front even though the don’t need to…

 

[Freemo]

On the other hand you have the situation with Voyagers where the narrow gangways and lack of seats mean everyone trying to board coach C (used for short-term reservations) getting shouted at to board at a quieter door, which nobody is going to do when they know they will never make it to their reserved seat through the interior as the vestibule will be wedged.

 

[F Great Eastern]

This is especially bad on Stansted Express services, both ex Stansted and Ex Liverpool Street (and to a lesser degree Norwich services) where the rear 5-6 can be showing totally full on the train loading information, whilst the front 3-4 carriages are very lightly loaded. I've been on trains which were like sardines at back with only a handful of passengers on the front.

People are just too lazy and don't want to walk down the train and would rather moan on social media that the train is overcrowded and like sardines and inhumane than bother to actually walk a little bit. It seems particularly bad in this country as whilst it happens on the continent, nowhere near as bad as here.

You can't do much about an end of line terminus other than is being done already (and in Stansted recently they tried an experiment with listing the train as serving platform 1B/1C (the furthest sectors) rather than platform 1 to stop people gathering at the back 1A part, and all it did was make a lot of people ask is the train at the front of 1A going to Stansted, a staff member told them no and to go to 1B/1C and passenger accused staff of lying and had a stand up argument with them!

Best ways against it are on multi-stoppers with a few busy stations, to try and direct passengers to platform entrances that lead to a different sector of the train than the rear of the train, or build stations in a way that encourage it, by feeding passengers to the front of platform rather than the rear that is crush loaded from lazy people at the terminus. But these things are not cheap or simple.

 

[6Gman]

The solution's obvious: Move the empty carriages from the front of the train to the rear (or vice versa.)

Or put in some big mirrors so the front looks like the back and vikki - verka.

 

[class 9]

One word....Sheeple, enter platform and stay there, train comes in and they all head for the nearest door.

 

[Snow1964]

One word....Sheeple, enter platform and stay there, train comes in and they all head for the nearest door.

Although to be fair, the railway rather encourages everyone to congregate together at some platforms by only providing shelters, seats, destination displays in one short part.

Why would anyone move along to a part of platform with no seats, where you can’t read the countdown, or where you get wet when it rains

 

[class 9]

Although to be fair, the railway rather encourages everyone to congregate together at some platforms by only providing shelters, seats, destination displays in one short part.

Why would anyone move along to a part of platform with no seats, where you can’t read the countdown, or where you get wet when it rains

Yes you're right to an extent, but I see it on a daily basis in large city stations!!

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s odd that so many replies are mentioning people’s experiences of everyone cramming on at the nearest door to the gateline or entrance, whereas the OP asked about an example of people apparently doing the exact opposite…

 

[david1212]

London Victoria <-> Brighton.

My overall experience is that the majority when boarding take the first free group of seats from the barrier. They then sit and wait for departure. On arrival they have to walk the remaining length of the train.

Given time I walk along the platform to the front or if on the last minute ( unofficial transfer time from Marylebone used to be reliably <28 mins - closest arrive Marylebone 5+ mins late at / after 10:15 and just been on the 10:38 ) walk through the train. Hence on arrival through or at least in queue for the barrier ahead of the crowd from the train I arrive on.

Generally for boarding where relevant I walk furthest from the main entry to the platform othewise try to judge the quieter end, if 1st class at one end I head to the other.

 

[bramling]

This is especially bad on Stansted Express services, both ex Stansted and Ex Liverpool Street (and to a lesser degree Norwich services) where the rear 5-6 can be showing totally full on the train loading information, whilst the front 3-4 carriages are very lightly loaded. I've been on trains which were like sardines at back with only a handful of passengers on the front.

People are just too lazy and don't want to walk down the train and would rather moan on social media that the train is overcrowded and like sardines and inhumane than bother to actually walk a little bit. It seems particularly bad in this country as whilst it happens on the continent, nowhere near as bad as here.

You can't do much about an end of line terminus other than is being done already (and in Stansted recently they tried an experiment with listing the train as serving platform 1B/1C (the furthest sectors) rather than platform 1 to stop people gathering at the back 1A part, and all it did was make a lot of people ask is the train at the front of 1A going to Stansted, a staff member told them no and to go to 1B/1C and passenger accused staff of lying and had a stand up argument with them!

Best ways against it are on multi-stoppers with a few busy stations, to try and direct passengers to platform entrances that lead to a different sector of the train than the rear of the train, or build stations in a way that encourage it, by feeding passengers to the front of platform rather than the rear that is crush loaded from lazy people at the terminus. But these things are not cheap or simple.

It’s one of those things where we have to take a “who cares?” attitude. If people want to cram in one part of the train, then that’s their prerogative. Good for those who are prepared to use their initiative and walk - they get a more pleasant journey as their reward for what Trump would describe as being smart.

The only issue is where it messes up dwell times, but this is mainly an issue at peak times, where regular commuters tend to be more worldly wise.

 

[AM9]

A pretty regular occurrence on Thameslink services, especially at weekends in recent months. 12 car service rolls in, middle 2/3/4 coaches not far off standing room only, while the rear 2 coaches have lots of seats. Always amusing!

That's because the fasts carry most of the passengers for St Albans, (which is often most of the passengers on the train). At St Albans, most of those passengers have to cross the inadequate footbridge to get from P4 to P1 where the main exit is. That should be changing as bit soon as the second footbridge will spread the access point to the bridge crossings.

 

[bramling]

That's because the fasts carry most of the passengers for St Albans, (which is often most of the passengers on the train). At St Albans, most of those passengers have to cross the inadequate footbridge to get from P4 to P1 where the main exit is. That should be changing as bit soon as the second footbridge will spread the access point to the bridge crossings.

Yes I got caught by this recently, and that was in the middle of the day. Train was booked to use platform 4, but crossed over at Radlett. Took several minutes to get out of the station in consequence. I should really have known better being a regular user of St Albans City in times past!

 

[AM9]

Yes I got caught by this recently, and that was in the middle of the day. Train was booked to use platform 4, but crossed over at Radlett. Took several minutes to get out of the station in consequence. I should really have known better being a regular user of St Albans City in times past!

Not sure how the new bridge is going lately, but it should help the crush which currently can cause a queue to climb the stairs which is still there when the next train pulls in causing mayhem. John Webb should know.

 

[bramling]

Not sure how the new bridge is going lately, but it should help the crush which currently can cause a queue to climb the stairs which is still there when the next train pulls in causing mayhem. John Webb should know.

The whole thing is quite hazardous with EMR trains passing through.

On the GN side, Hitchin is a bit of a nuisance. People there seem to be quite picky, they will spread out along the train, but all want to be in the second car in time for when they alight. So anything up to 10 minutes before arrival people will start shuffling through the train. I suspect it’s in order to be at the front of the taxi queue or out of the car park. Hitchin is also an increasingly smug town, which may contribute.

By contrast, a year or two back the RLU stopping mark at Stevenage platform 1 was moved right up to the platform end, meaning the rear of the train stops at the bottom of the stairs. This causes chaos, as people will be waiting on the rear section of the platform, so cue a scrum when the train arrives.

 

[antharro]

I did that journey weekly for about a decade and for most of that time I was in the leading carriage (assuming 10x444). It's odd that the front carriages filled up that full, as has been said it's usually the rear couple of of carriage that fill up the most. I did find though that when SWT were running their £5 promotion, the front couple of carriages would fill up first. That was mostly families trying to get a table.

 

[AM9]

Apart from the hazards of peak hour scrums at stations where there is restricted clearance, this does allow those that don't follow the crowd to get comfortable seats. If regular passengers think that a couple of minutes saved are that important that they are prepared to travel in crush loaded coaches, then so be it.

 

[Stampy]

I've seen it on the Thameslink trains back to Peterborough..

I now get on them at either Blackfriars or London Bridge - as the "scrum" for seats at St Pancras International has to be seen to be believed...

The nanosecond that the doors open, passengers are pushing to get on - literally like a Rugby scrum.

They all hang around the bottom of the escalators at St P. (which would be the middle of a TL train) - instead of spreading out along the platform..

This causes a log jam, as people stop dead in their efforts to find a seat..

I've even had a family of four "have a go" at a friend and myself for sitting in a bay of 4 seat - yet there were loads of empty seats - literally 5 yards away...

 

[IrishDave]

London Victoria <-> Brighton.

My overall experience is that the majority when boarding take the first free group of seats from the barrier. They then sit and wait for departure. On arrival they have to walk the remaining length of the train.

Given time I walk along the platform to the front or if on the last minute ( unofficial transfer time from Marylebone used to be reliably <28 mins - closest arrive Marylebone 5+ mins late at / after 10:15 and just been on the 10:38 ) walk through the train. Hence on arrival through or at least in queue for the barrier ahead of the crowd from the train I arrive on.

Generally for boarding where relevant I walk furthest from the main entry to the platform othewise try to judge the quieter end, if 1st class at one end I head to the other.

My experience of Victoria-Brighton trains - in both directions - is that while most do indeed take the nearest seats to the rear of the train (nearest the barriers), there is a small but sizeable minority who walk forward to the very front of the train, thus minimising the walk at the other end of the journey. (I'm definitely one of those!)

The funny thing is when there are engineering works, and the direct Victoria-Brighton trains are diverted via Littlehampton and Horsham. Because the train must reverse at Littlehampton, the same end of the train is nearest the buffers at both Brighton and Victoria - which sometimes catches out someone who has proactively walked down the train, much to my amusement! It does, however, make it nice and easy to get a quiet carriage, should you want one - the carriages furthest from the buffers on those diverted trains (northbound in particular) are very lightly loaded, with just a few people from Shoreham / Worthing / Angmering / Littlehampton boarding, and then generally no-one else boarding. I think that may be partly down to the curve of platforms 1/2 at Brighton - it makes it much harder to see how long the train is, and therefore whether to bother walking down to the front of the train.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

And on that front East Croydon’s main, and for a long while (c 160 years) only entrance being at the front of any train leaving Victoria or London Bridge did tend to move people forward at the latter two departure stations.

It’s a bit different now as the footbridge and an exit is at the 7th or 8th carriage point (vice 4th or 5th) so the pressure to move forward is less strong.

The Victoria Line was very heavily biased to the south end (Victoria Euston, King’s Cross and Highbury and Islington to name but four) but the new exits at Victoria and King’s Cross have alleviated the issue a bit.

 

[bramling]

And on that front East Croydon’s main, and for a long while (c 160 years) only entrance being at the front of any train leaving Victoria or London Bridge did tend to move people forward at the latter two departure stations.

It’s a bit different now as the footbridge and an exit is at the 7th or 8th carriage point (vice 4th or 5th) so the pressure to move forward is less strong.

The Victoria Line was very heavily biased to the south end (Victoria Euston, King’s Cross and Highbury and Islington to name but four) but the new exits at Victoria and King’s Cross have alleviated the issue a bit.

The other factor on the Victoria Line is the explosion in demand to/from Walthamstow over the years, where the access is at the north end.

There’s some other routes on LU where the terminus is a heavy traffic generator and this produces uneven loadings. Uxbridge is one, Stratford (Jubilee) is another - at both these it is quite common to see trains heading to these places being full at the front and empty at the back. Heathrow is another where people pile into the rear of the train, though less of an issue for trains going *to* the airport as most will be irregular users and don’t know where to position themselves.

 

[route101]

I usually walk to the front of the train if there is time. I do this on the 8 car 385 units between Glasgow and Edinburgh. On the 444s from Waterloo I walk to the front, means a longer walk at the other end but I would rather get a seat!

 

[Cricketer8for9]

@bramling - thanks. It’s been a long time since I exited at Walthamstow Central.