Unfair ticket challenge - advice request

[JayJay50]

HI, I'd be grateful for any comments anyone might offer for this rather odd situation I found myself in last week. I searched on National Rail enquiries website for a ticket from Marsden to London for the following day. the result was a list of journeys, some via Wakefield or Leeds, some via Manchester, all ticket prices being identical, and journey times similar. When I found I could not buy a ticket online for the following day as it would need collection at station with a ticket machine, I went into Huddersfield and asked for a ticket at the ticket office there. I did not specify which route as I did not know it wsa necessary, and I was not asked which route I wished to take, only when I wished to travel. I replied, tomorrow morning.
I had no idea that the tickets are not valid for either route and it was only chance that I chose to leave on the first train, via Manchester. On my return from London I had a meeting at King's Place, near King's Cross, so opted to travel on the East Coast route, purely because of the convenience. Again, I had no idea that this was not permitted with the ticket.
At King's Cross, the automatic ticket barriers were not working, so my mistake could not be checked. Had I known the ticket was not valid I wou;d not have travelled via that route. Why would I? It is but a few minutes' walk to Euston and the journey time pretty similar. I had little gain by using that route, except that the East Coast train left sooner.
When I gave my ticket to the inspector on the train he treated me like a fare dodger. I was flabbergasted, as I had no idea that tickets are not universally valid. He told me I had to pay the difference in fares between the two routes which, according to him was just over £20. I had paid £60-odd with my Senior railcard. I pointed out that according to the NRE site the fares are identical, but he was not interested. He was extremely rude. He clearly treated me as if I was somehow cheating the rail company, but I paid for a valid ticket and had made a genuine mistake, one that I could not have made had the King's Cross barriers been working.
At no point in buying the fare did the ticket sales chap ask me which route I wanted to take. Neither did he point out that the tickets were of limited validity.
Of course I wrote to the address on the ticket issued by the inspector to appeal but have received a standard reply that ignores all the points I raised, as above.
Does anyone have any comments or advice about this matter please? I live on a tiny pension and cannot afford this £20 which amounts to a third the cost of the ticket. Does my railcard allow me to ask them to reduce it by a third? The really daft thing is that on the internet I noticed that if I had bought a ticket to Nottingham, and another from there to London, it would have been about £20 cheaper than the full fare.
Thank you in anticipation of your replies.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

Can you clarify which train you took from Kings Cross? and was this a weekday?

Did you have this ticket:

Origin: Marsden Yorks
Destination: London Terminals
Route: Via Manchester
Type: Off Peak Return
Price: £62.85

 

[Simon11]

He was extremely rude. He clearly treated me as if I was somehow cheating the rail company.

While it may have seem that you have paid a fare, you did infact cheat east coast trains if you had a via manchester ticket. East coast receieves hardly anything for carrying passengers on that ticket.

If I was in your position, I would write to complain to the ticket office for not asking about the route for such journey. However the ticket should have the route writting on the ticket, so you may not have a leg to stand on for the additional fare paid.

 

[yorkie]

While it may have seem that you have paid a fare, you did infact cheat east coast trains if you had a via manchester ticket. East coast receieves hardly anything for carrying passengers on that ticket.

I disagree. A passenger is entitled to a change of route excess. The passenger did not choose a "Route via Manchester" ticket so if anyone is "cheating" East Coast out of revenue it is Northern, and absolutely not the OP, but not deliberately either.

I cannot be certain of the correct excess due to insufficient information in the original post, however if the OP caught a train that is valid on a Super Off Peak ticket, for example 1903 London Kings Cross - Leeds, the appropriate fare for a change of route excess is the same price as the original fare paid, so the excess would be £0.00.

If, on the other hand, the OP caught a train during the evening peak, then the appropriate fare would be £104.60, therefore the excess would be £20.85, in which case the guard acted correctly (though the guard should have been polite)

If I was in your position, I would write to complain to the ticket office for not asking about the route for such journey.

Agreed. The customer should be offered the choice of routes and have any restrictions explained to them.

However the ticket should have the route writting on the ticket, so you may not have a leg to stand on for the additional fare paid.

If he travelled on a train such as 1505, 1535, 1605, 1633, 1703, 1733, 1749, 1803, 1833 services then yes I would agree as the charge was correct.

Virgin Trains guards would have accepted the ticket with no additional fare for travel at 'peak' times from Euston.

Going back to the OP..

I live on a tiny pension and cannot afford this £20 which amounts to a third the cost of the ticket. Does my railcard allow me to ask them to reduce it by a third?

The £20.85 has already been reduced by a third, and is half the difference between the Any Permitted and via Manchester fares.

However the charge was only correct if you were travelling at a time that is considered 'peak' for the ticket.

I do not know what time you travelled out of Kings Cross so cannot say if the charge was correct or not.

The really daft thing is that on the internet I noticed that if I had bought a ticket to Nottingham, and another from there to London, it would have been about £20 cheaper than the full fare.
Thank you in anticipation of your replies.

It is true that you can undertake one journey using a combination of tickets, "splitting" at stations en-route. But if you do this, you must travel via (and usually call at) the named station(s) where you "split".

Your right to do this, and the restrictions you must comply with, are stated in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (Condition 19).

So if you had "split" at Nottingham, you would not have been permitted to travel on the trains you took and would instead have to have used the slower 'Midland Mainline' route (operated by East Midlands Trains).

 

[transmanche]

Welcome to the forum.

Can you clarify which train you took from Kings Cross? and was this a weekday?

Did you have this ticket:

Origin: Marsden Yorks
Destination: London Terminals
Route: Via Manchester
Type: Off Peak Return
Price: £62.85

That makes me think there's been a major customer service failure here; both at the point of sale and on board.

There appear to be two tickets at the same price: an Off-Peak valid via Manchester and a Super Off-Peak valid via any permitted route. The first ticket carries restriction code 2C; which means not valid for trains leaving Euston between 15:01 and 18:44. The second ticket has restriction code 1L; which means it's not valid for trains leaving Kings Cross between 15:01 and 18:58 (18:14 on Fridays)

Now assuming that travel was at the permitted time, I thought it was allowable to excess a fare from a specific route to any permitted - in this case being a zero-value excess? Or is it the fact that one ticket is an Off-Peak and the other a Super Off-Peak which disallows it? Or is it simply that it wasn't done at the ticket office before boarding?

 

[yorkie]

Now assuming that travel was at the permitted time, I thought it was allowable to excess a fare from a specific route to any permitted - in this case being a zero-value excess?

Correct.

But we don't know if that was applicable in this case as the information is missing from the original post.

Or is it the fact that one ticket is an Off-Peak and the other a Super Off-Peak which disallows it?

No. The rules regarding a change of route excess are that the excess should be the cost of the difference in fares between the fare paid and the appropriate fare. For an excess of a return ticket in one direction that is half the difference. So if the passenger is travelling at a time when the appropriate fare is £62.85, then the difference is £0.00.

Or is it simply that it wasn't done at the ticket office before boarding?

A change of route excess is always to the appropriate fare (including railcard discounts), irrespective of whether the excess is issued on board or prior to boarding. (Note, however, that ticket barrier staff may deny entry to a passenger travelling on the wrong route and insist they excess the ticket at the ticket office before boarding if they still wish to travel via that route).

Certain other types of excess fare are to the full fare (excluding railcard discounts), but that does not apply in this case. If it did, the excess would have been so expensive a new ticket would have been cheaper.

 

[transmanche]

Cheers yorkie, that confirms/clarifies a few things that confused me.

So in short, the only grounds for an excess in this situation would be for travel outside the permitted time? (And the amount of the excess seems to confirm that.) Which is no excuse for any rudeness on the part of the guard

 

[Ferret]

Cheers yorkie, that confirms/clarifies a few things that confused me.

So in short, the only grounds for an excess in this situation would be for travel outside the permitted time? (And the amount of the excess seems to confirm that.) Which is no excuse for any rudeness on the part of the guard

If any took place of course. It's a standard tactic to accuse the guard of being rude because he wouldn't allow the passenger to do what they wanted - ie not pay an excess that was due. I speak from experience here, and in fairness, many of the forum's posters are already wise to this tactic.

The OP would be well advised to accept the excess fare, and raise a complaint with Northern if they feel the ticket was mis-sold.

 

[sheff1]

The OP would be well advised to accept the excess fare, and raise a complaint with Northern if they feel the ticket was mis-sold.

Sorry, where does Northern come into this ?

 

[transmanche]

Sorry, where does Northern come into this ?

I guess Ferret assumed that Northern manages Huddersfield station. It's actually managed by TPE.

 

[Deerfold]

Sorry, where does Northern come into this ?

I suspect Ferret assumed Huddersfield is run by Northern, rather then TPE.

 

[Ferret]

I suspect Ferret assumed Huddersfield is run by Northern, rather then TPE.

Yup, guilty as charged! Moral of the story - never assume anything!

So, to the OP - talk to Trans Pennine in that case if you feel the ticket was mis-sold!

 

[JayJay50]

Wow, thank you all for responding so quickly to this. It is valuable to have such experience to call on.
I guess I will have to stump up the amount and argue later. I am drafting a reply to the appeals assessor now, whose letter to me seems to be a standard one referring me to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and pointing out that a copy is available at every station ticket office. how many people check that before travelling?
The train I took out of King's X was 13.35. I am interested in this idea that there should have been no excess, which seems to me to be far, given that the tickets are identically priced on the NRE website for both routes, east and west coast.
His rudeness was in his brusque manner, the loud voice that made sure others could hear, and his implying that I was somehow trying to fiddle. My only 'crime' was ignorance of the lack of validity. I gained no pecuniary advantage at all. and I lost time because, being so upset by this, I took the bus home from Huddersfield rather than finish the journey by train.

 

[island]

It seems to me that the excess in this case was incorrect and it should have been a zero excess to a Super Off-Peak Return route ANY PERMITTED. The guard may have thought that it would need to be a change of route but the same ticket type.

It would also be worth complaining to FTPE if you were sold a VIA MANCHESTER ticket when you had not requested to travel that way.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wow, thank you all for responding so quickly to this. It is valuable to have such experience to call on.

Happy to help

The train I took out of King's X was 13.35. I am interested in this idea that there should have been no excess, which seems to me to be far, given that the tickets are identically priced on the NRE website for both routes, east and west coast.

Seeing as you were travelling when a Super Off-Peak ticket would be valid I believe you should have been offered a 'change of route excess' to turn your 'Route: Via Manchester' ticket into a 'Route: Any Permitted' one. The cost of this, of course, being £0 as the prices are the same.

I definitely think, now, you have a case against the payment you have been asked to make.

 

[JayJay50]

Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
Welcome to the forum.
Can you clarify which train you took from Kings Cross? and was this a weekday?
Did you have this ticket:
Origin: Marsden Yorks
Destination: London Terminals
Route: Via Manchester
Type: Off Peak Return
Price: £62.85

It was a Tuesday and, yes, this was the price paid and the 'Via Manchester' bit. I did not read the ticket as I did not know there could have been a mistake, but I really think it should read 'via Manchester only' for clarity, and that the ticket sales and inspectors should point it out. I also can't but wonder why there was no ticket inspection at King's Cross, which would have prevented this whole nonsense.
In spite of some views that I was cheating, I assure you there was no gain for me in this at all. A few minutes' walk to Euston and I would have been on a perfectly viable alternative, had I know the ticket was not valid.
it has put me off using trains.
Bring back British Rail!

 

[Ferret]

It seems to me that the excess in this case was incorrect and it should have been a zero excess to a Super Off-Peak Return route ANY PERMITTED. The guard may have thought that it would need to be a change of route but the same ticket type.

It would also be worth complaining to FTPE if you were sold a VIA MANCHESTER ticket when you had not requested to travel that way.

This is interesting! We've been trained exactly how the guard has acted here. SOR held, equals change of route excess to the same ticket type for the appropriate route being taken. I'm off to find my login for the FRPP when I get to work now!

 

[island]

I've just looked it up and the customer should be given an excess to the "appropriate fare", which "means the cheapest Single or Return fare available for immediate travel on the chosen service". That would have been the Super Off-Peak Return route ANY PERMITTED, despite that this is excessing an SVR to an SSR.

 

[Ferret]

I've just looked it up and the customer should be given an excess to the "appropriate fare", which "means the cheapest Single or Return fare available for immediate travel on the chosen service". That would have been the Super Off-Peak Return route ANY PERMITTED, despite that this is excessing an SVR to an SSR.

Based on that, I'd have to agree that the excess is incorrect then!

 

[JayJay50]

thank you again/ I shall use this information to challenge the ticket again. the only question now is, how do I do that? I have received a reply already completely dismissing my pleas. Should I pay under protest and challenge later, seeing as I have to make payment before Thursday - 10 days given to cough up.
Thank you all again.
It's years since I travelled to London on the 'ordinary' train. I go to London 3 or 4 times a year usingthe Megabus/rail combination, Huddersfield to St Pancras for around £20-odd return. I booked too late this time.
Your knowledge of the regs has been most helpful.

 

[bb21]

The excess was incorrectly charged, full stop.

I would not pay it and tell them to look up East Coast's own excess fare procedures, the May 2012 version is contained in this Freedom of Information request. The section you need is C7.1.1

C7.1.1. Travel by a Different Route - with a higher fare

...

Return Tickets - Travel in one direction

First & Standard Anytime / Day Return
First & Standard Off-peak Return / Day Return
Super Off-Peak Return

Charge half the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare for the journey being made. If no through fare, charge the appropriate Single fare for the part of the journey not covered by the ticket held.

"Appropriate fare" is defined at the end of the very same document.

GENERAL NOTES

“Appropriate fare” means the cheapest Single or Return fare available for immediate travel on the chosen service. This can include TOC-specific tickets if the outward journey is being excessed (the customer must be informed the ticket is now EC-specific) but NOT the return (unless there is proof of outward journey).

The cheapest fare available for immediate travel in your case is one valid on the 1335, which is the Super Off-Peak Return. This means your excess would be zero fare.

 

[tannedfrog]

For what it's worth, the barriers at Kings Cross, if they had been closed, may or may not have rejected your ticket but if they had, the gateline staff may well have let you through without looking closely at your ticket.

The guard while rude, appears not to have treated you as a fare evader because he/she could have reported you for prosecution if this was his/her suspicion. Giving an excess with Railcard discount was really the least harsh solution, although the guard appears to have got the detail of the excess wrong.

 

[John @ home]

The guard while rude, appears not to have treated you as a fare evader because he/she could have reported you for prosecution if this was his/her suspicion. Giving an excess with Railcard discount was really the least harsh solution, although the guard appears to have got the detail of the excess wrong.

I do not agree that there were any grounds to report JayJay50 for prosecution, nor to charge any excess fare higher than £0.00.

JayJay50 was travelling using the return leg of a £62.85 Railcard Off Peak Return Marsden Yorks - London Terminals route Via Manchester ticket, on a Permitted Route for a Marsden Yorks - London Terminals journey, but one which did not pass through Manchester.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage set out the passenger's rights in these circumstances:

13. The route you are entitled to take

... (e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.

http://nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf

The "lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled [JayJay50] to travel by that route" is a £62.85 Railcard Super Off Peak Return Marsden Yorks - London Terminals route Any Permitted. The "difference" is therefore £0.00.

If the guard decided that an excess fare was appropriate, an alternative route excess fare ticket for £0.00 should have been issued.

Should I pay under protest and challenge later

In the circumstances, my advice is not to make any payment but to write to East Coast quoting the relevant part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and politely explaining why no money is due.

I would be happy to proof-read a draft letter sent to me by private message. At the time of writing JayJay50 has made 4 posts. The private message facility appears to become active an hour or so after a new member has made 5 posts.

 

[JayJay50]

I shall contact you by private message with my letter draft.
I really appreciate this as, as you can imagine, I am very worried about falling foul of the law, but I am so upset about the injustices inherent in this. I wonder if the lack of a reasoned appeal is one way of ensuring revenue for the train companies through excess fares, and wonder if anyone is getting commission along the line.
In their response letter the appeals assessor stated that tickets are issued under the terms of the NRCOC, copies of which are available at all ticket offices. Presumably that is how a ticket purchaser is supposed to know that tickets are not valid with different companies. Quite apart from the fact that no one buying a ticket will know this, or bother to demand a copy and read it before travelling, they are not available at station ticket offices. I went to Huddersfield ticket office last night and asked for a copy. After a ten minute search, including in the manager's office, they could not find a copy, not even for their own enlightenment, never mind that of passengers.
I also asked about validity of rain tickets on both routes and was told that if the ticket price was identical "there should be no problem"
Hey ho.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How do I send a private message please?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, found it!

 

[ainsworth74]

If you go here you should be able to send one as I believe you've now got enough posts to make it active for you.

 

[Be3G]

I also asked about validity of rain tickets on both routes and was told that if the ticket price was identical "there should be no problem"
Hey ho.

The member of staff was correct about this, although possibly by accident, as it requires familiarity with the National Routeing Guide (which seems to be rare amongst most – but not all – TOC staff). Section A page 2 states:

Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

 

[JayJay50]

I sent a copy of my appeal letter to the rail regulator's office and got this reply just now:

Thank you for the copy of your letter of 28 November to RPSS concerning the unpaid fares notice issued to you on 27 November.

I am afraid that the Office of Rail Regulation does not regulate penalty fares schemes. All such schemes require the approval of the Department for Transport (DfT), and the policy and rules governing their implementation can be found on its website at http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/rail-penalty-fares/. As well as setting out the powers given to train operators to impose penalty fares, the Penalty Fares Rules are also designed to provide appropriate protection for those passengers without valid tickets who are not deliberately avoiding fare payment.

If you are not satisfied with the outcome of your appeal to RPSS, you can contact Passenger Focus (http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/contact/passenger-help) which is sponsored by the DfT to represent passenger interests and act as Britain’s rail passenger watchdog. They may be able to take the complaint up on your behalf.

If you would like to know more about the regulation of penalty fares schemes you may wish to contact the DfT at:

Joe Kerrigan
Rail Support and Communication Division
Department for Transport
Zone 4/12 Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London
SW1P 4DR

Email [email protected]

I am sorry we are unable to help you in this case, but I hope the information above is useful.

Yours sincerely

Sharon Cottrell
Office of Rail Regulation
One Kemble Street
London
WC2B 4AN

Tel: 020-7282 3951
Fax: 020-7282 2043
Web: www.rail-reg.gov.uk

 

[yorkie]

What did you ask the ORR? This has nothing to do with Penalty Fares, as this was an (incorrectly issued) excess fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
JayJay50 - I suggest you write a robust letter to EC (using the advice above), if you can PM me a draft of your letter I will be happy to proof read it for you.

If EC do not relent we have the option to contact Barry Doe, he has managed to have success by contacting someone at EC in the past.

For example a guard incorrectly charged zzip00 because of a delayed train. RPSS continued to tell the customer were wrong. But a few emails later and it was all resolved. The guard in question is infamous and notorious but is no longer a guard on the route (I wonder why...)

 

[reb0118]

What did you ask the ORR? This has nothing to do with Penalty Fares, as this was an (incorrectly issued) excess fare.

Thank you for the copy of your letter of 28 November to RPSS concerning the unpaid fares notice issued to you on 27 November.

I am afraid that the Office of Rail Regulation does not regulate penalty fares schemes.

It seems JayJay50 has correctly stated "unpaid fares notice" in both the original letter to the RPSS and the copy to the ORR. It seems that the ORR have transcribed unpaid fare to penalty fare. I have had a wee look on EC's website re. unpaid fares notices and nowhere does it mention penalty fares.

Would the OP be right to send off a cheque for £0.00 in full & final settlement of the "zero fare" excess that should have been charged?