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Unlawful Use of SJPN by Train Companies for Section 5(1) RoRA Prosecutions

AlterEgo

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? It's been clearly explained in this thread that may of the 'fines' were in fact wrong, e.g., a criminal prosecution following a PF appeal. There is substantive evidence for this.

They could not have been prosecuted or find guilty in such a circumstance.
There have also been numerous prosecutions under RoRA which were also substantively wrong - because the law under RORA 5 (1) means it is not an offence if the passenger gives their name and address. Which of course was given in nearly all circumstances - because that's how the TOC has it.

Notably, TOCs have appeared to (almost?) cease use of RoRA since this scandal broke. Have we seen any since?
 
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Puffing Devil

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A SJP is a single justice procedure. It is a physical court.

Perhaps I oversimplified - full hearing in front of the Magistrates with a personal appearance.

? It's been clearly explained in this thread that may of the 'fines' were in fact wrong, e.g., a criminal prosecution following a PF appeal. There is substantive evidence for this.

They could not have been prosecuted or find guilty in such a circumstance.

You are wrong here, and this is where the article is wrong. They have called out-of-court settlements "Fines". The issue of follow-up prosecutions for uncollected settlement offers is completely separate. The article attempts to be lumping SJP prosecutions in with agreed and paid out of court settlement.
 

Wolfie

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Perhaps I oversimplified - full hearing in front of the Magistrates with a personal appearance.



You are wrong here, and this is where the article is wrong. They have called out-of-court settlements "Fines". The issue of follow-up prosecutions for uncollected settlement offers is completely separate. The article attempts to be lumping SJP prosecutions in with agreed and paid out of court settlement.
"Agreed" on a basis advanced by the TOC which was in many cases misleading and misstated the legal position. Something that you appear to be defending.
 

talldave

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Agreed some TOCs have behaved badly, but sheer numbers mean that the majority of people affected were, in fact, fare evading.

As such they get a *tiny* bit less sympathy from me than truly innocent people caught up in the net.
I'm not even sure it's bad behaviour, more incompetence. There are rules, just follow them. I'd like to see TOCs punished/fined for breaking the rules - hitting them where it hurts might just focus their attention on being slightly less incompetent. I also don't see why TOCs should be abusing a courts system that taxpayers fund without any redress.
 

Puffing Devil

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"Agreed" on a basis advanced by the TOC which was in many cases misleading and misstated the legal position. Something that you appear to be defending.

Many? What percentage?

If many cases the TOC did they believe their interpretation of the law was correct. Until we see this challenged in a court of record it remains an interpretation.

I'm not even sure it's bad behaviour, more incompetence. There are rules, just follow them. I'd like to see TOCs punished/fined for breaking the rules - hitting them where it hurts might just focus their attention on being slightly less incompetent. I also don't see why TOCs should be abusing a courts system that taxpayers fund without any redress.

I do believe that it is incompetence and not malice. What would be malicious would be continuing when told it was wrong.

I agree with this, but am also wondering why the courts have apparently not checked the legality of the SJP prosecutions before proceeding.

Agree. Unfortunately an intimate knowledge of railway law is not core to the courts system. There isn't even a sentencing guide for the Byelaw Offences. This is what happens when you defund the legal system.
 

soil

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You are wrong here, and this is where the article is wrong. They have called out-of-court settlements "Fines". The issue of follow-up prosecutions for uncollected settlement offers is completely separate. The article attempts to be lumping SJP prosecutions in with agreed and paid out of court settlement.

I put 'fines' in '' marks, because technically speaking a fine is something imposed by a court.

However, in everyday language people say they are 'fined' for overstaying car parking in a private car park, or for a penalty fare, or whatever.

While the language used is imprecise, it's entirely unambiguous:

New figures show a train operator has made more than half a million pounds worth of out of court settlements for fare evasions in the last four years. Some of the fines that have been paid – and can’t now be overturned – should never have been pursued.

A Freedom of Information request by The Lead to Northern rail has revealed almost 6,000 out of court settlements made by the government-run rail operator for fare evasion charges between 2020 and November 2024, totalling over £560,000.

This is clear that they are referring to the 'settlements' as 'fines', which is what most people consider these letters to be, and in plain English they are (even if not in a strict legal sense).

Plainly also, the article is not 'abysmal' as you put it, because it contains 1500 words addressing an issue that they have identified on the basis of their own research - namely that Northern made 6000 settlements averaging £94 each. This is good reporting, not abysmal, and the misuse of one word out of 1500 doesn't change that fact.

Your argument is that "many of the 6000 settlements would have been validly obtained, without making illegal threats", however, I'm not sure sure that you have any evidence that is the case, and in any case it does clearly say that this is "some". "Some" is obviously a number between 0 and 6,000, and you seem to be of the opinion that "if you don't do your job properly and make threats to people that aren't valid in law, then that's all well and good because well probably most of them were validly obtained!?"

We specifically know that Northern issue Penalty Fares, which are a statutory civil alternative to criminal prosecution, however they wrongly prosecuted people following appeals against those PFs.

It's therefore reasonable to assume that many people were wrongly extorted by Northern, and this is of much greater consequence than the fact that many of the 6000 people are probably "bang to rights": these are "miscarriages of justice" in the sense that they involved false threats of the criminal justice system and are therefore weighty - not as weighty as the actual convictions, but more weighty than the essentially trivial matter of Northern getting a few hundred grand from the "bang to rights" group.

Agree. Unfortunately an intimate knowledge of railway law is not core to the courts system. There isn't even a sentencing guide for the Byelaw Offences. This is what happens when you defund the legal system.

?

There is a general guideline


There is also one for RoRA


The Sentencing Council don't create guidelines for fun, but where there is a need, e.g., because of inconsistent sentencing.

RoRA needs the guideline because it's a 19th century offence with a possible prison sentence in statute whereas in reality it is similar to other minor offences where a fine is usual.

The Byelaws have a maximum sentence of a fine, so there's no need for a guideline.

In addition, it's not clear that it's about the intimate knowledge of railway law, but specifically a-la-Post-office, a risk associated with private prosecutors. Legal staff at TOCs were legally incompetent, and prosecuted people wrongly. While it's true that the courts did not identify this issue, which followed a change in the law to introduce SJP, which was intended to make it cheaper and easier for TOCs to prosecute, the two main issues would be the over-aggressive TOCs, and the inherent trust that's likely to arise in any given system between key players: if Joe Public privately prosecutes someone, the court is going to be suspicious of them and question their behaviour, because Joe Public is not a part of the system, and is not a trusted insider.

In this case, bulk private prosecutors such as TOCs have high trust within the justice system because otherwise the system doesn't work. It is just unfortunate that they breached the trust placed within them and harmed the credibility of the justice system as a whole.
 
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Puffing Devil

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Thank you @soil for so clearly explaining what I missed during my seventeen short years in the Magistrate's Court.

Perhaps you can explain the headline 'Northern rail made more than half a million in "unlawful" fare evasion prosecutions' when it refers not to actual prosecutions but out-of-court settlements. That's abysmal journalism.
 

KirkstallOne

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I do believe that it is incompetence and not malice. What would be malicious would be continuing when told it was wrong.
They were told via 3 separate routes that this was wrong in August 2023 (letter from solicitor, stated directly to their prosecutor in court before the case was withdrawn, via a letter of complaint to their MD) as well as the extensive discussions on this forum which we know various people in the revenue enforcement world read. Prosecutions continued until April 2024.

I don’t know whether this was malicious or incompetent, but I think the issue is sufficiently serious, with some £30M of fines having to be reversed, that this question should be looked at.
 

Wolfie

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Thank you @soil for so clearly explaining what I missed during my seventeen short years in the Magistrate's Court.

Perhaps you can explain the headline 'Northern rail made more than half a million in "unlawful" fare evasion prosecutions' when it refers not to actual prosecutions but out-of-court settlements. That's abysmal journalism.
I've never been near a Magistrates Court in my life. I did, however, spend over a decade working in two central Government departments handling litigation and potential prosecutions at up to Supreme Court level.
 

Gonzoiku

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Thank you @soil for so clearly explaining what I missed during my seventeen short years in the Magistrate's Court.

Perhaps you can explain the headline 'Northern rail made more than half a million in "unlawful" fare evasion prosecutions' when it refers not to actual prosecutions but out-of-court settlements. That's abysmal journalism.
From my time in newspapers both national and regional, I can assure you that headlines are not written by journalists!

GZ
 

Puffing Devil

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They were told via 3 separate routes that this was wrong in August 2023 (letter from solicitor, stated directly to their prosecutor in court before the case was withdrawn, via a letter of complaint to their MD) as well as the extensive discussions on this forum which we know various people in the revenue enforcement world read. Prosecutions continued until April 2024.

I don’t know whether this was malicious or incompetent, but I think the issue is sufficiently serious, with some £30M of fines having to be reversed, that this question should be looked at.

Sigh. I know the prosecutions were wrong and used the wrong process. If you read my original post, you'll see that I object to the article conflating out-of-court settlements and prosecutions. That is just plain wrong.

I've never been near a Magistrates Court in my life.

Are you called soil? I took no issue with your post.

From my time in newspapers both national and regional, I can assure you that headlines are not written by journalists!

GZ

I apologise for tarring you with the sub-editorial brush.
 

Starmill

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That is just plain wrong.
Perhaps you could give us a bit more detail about how it's "wrong"? To me this reads as you pointing out a technicality which you clearly feel qualified to do with your "seventeen years in the Magistrates Court!".

Now, I don't for one iota disagree with your technical point. You're correct. But as you've been quite insistent - how does this error negatively affect the public understanding? Perhaps we could hear an example of how someone could see that headline and get a wrong impression about the unethical behaviour practiced by various train operators including Northern?

I'm sure you and I can appreciate the difference between an alleged offence where prosecution is threatened, and a commenced prosecution. Same as how we can appreciate the difference between a fine and a financial penalty of contract. But does any of that difference actually matter?
 

Puffing Devil

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Perhaps you could give us a bit more detail about how it's "wrong"? To me this reads as you pointing out a technicality which you clearly feel qualified to do with your "seventeen years in the Magistrates Court!".

Here we go again. My 17 years in court were relevant to Soil Esq. trying to educate me on the origins and application of the sentencing guidelines, which I am very familiar with. It may come as a shock, but the full text of the RORA nor the Bylaws were ever produced in court. Only if a prosecutor or a defendant had referred to a point of law would they be brought out. I doubt the average Legal Advisor or District Judge has ever seen them before, nor could remember the nuances which this board is so familiar with.

Now, I don't for one iota disagree with your technical point. You're correct.

So am I right or am I wrong? You seem a little confused.


But as you've been quite insistent - how does this error negatively affect the public understanding? Perhaps we could hear an example of how someone could see that headline and get a wrong impression about the unethical behaviour practiced by various train operators including Northern?

Let's look at the headline

Northern rail made more than half a million in "unlawful" fare evasion prosecutions
The Lead has found that there were almost 6,000 out of court settlements by the train operator for fare evasion charges in the last four years.

Northern Rail has not made more than half a million in "unlawful" fare evasion prosecutions. Fact.


I'm sure you and I can appreciate the difference between an alleged offence where prosecution is threatened, and a commenced prosecution. Same as how we can appreciate the difference between a fine and a financial penalty of contract. But does any of that difference actually matter?

Please don't assume my opinion or attempt an appeal to common ground. Let's focus on the facts of the situation.

The difference matters a lot. The article creates a false impression for the reader that the 6000 out-of-court settlements were unlawful. They were not.
 

Starmill

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Please don't assume my opinion or attempt an appeal to common ground.
OK then if you don't wish to actually clarify, I'll give you my view plainly and you can do with it as you please. I don't believe you're a reliable person to deliver this information because you have some agenda beyond simply determining the truth as plainly as possible. What that agenda is I don't know, but I do know someone who was more interested in just the truth would be incredibly unlikely to try to rely on their day job in the Magistrates court as evidence in support of their point.
So am I right or am I wrong? You seem a little confused.
In my view you're wrong, as you're relying exclusively on a technicality.

They were not.
In your opinion.
 

Puffing Devil

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OK then if you don't wish to actually clarify, I'll give you my view plainly and you can do with it as you please. I don't believe you're a reliable person to deliver this information because you have some agenda beyond simply determining the truth as plainly as possible. What that agenda is I don't know, but I do know someone who was more interested in just the truth would be incredibly unlikely to try to rely on their day job in the Magistrates court as evidence in support of their point.

In my view you're wrong, as you're relying exclusively on a technicality.


In your opinion.
It's fascinating how you can diagnose my 'agenda' without a shred of evidence, yet struggle to understand the basic principles of logical argumentation. Your 'plain view' is about as clear as mud, and your attempt to discredit me by dismissing my professional experience only highlights your own insecurity. You're essentially saying, 'I don't like your evidence, so I'll just invent a reason to ignore it.' Bravo. Your powers of deduction are truly... something.
 

furlong

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It's just typical lazy journalism, I'm afraid, in my opinion. "Never believe everything you read in the press." An exaggerated headline for a story with a few careless inaccuracies perhaps that annoy people who understand the reality and which may somewhat mislead those who don't? Just detracts from the (valid) underlying point buried within.

(And yes there should be an external inquiry into why they continued even after they knew it was wrong and heads should roll for that - but I'd still guess that was more likely to be gross incompetence than malice. It's not easy to change course.)
 
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Starmill

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It's fascinating how you can diagnose my 'agenda' without a shred of evidence, yet struggle to understand the basic principles of logical argumentation. Your 'plain view' is about as clear as mud, and your attempt to discredit me by dismissing my professional experience only highlights your own insecurity. You're essentially saying, 'I don't like your evidence, so I'll just invent a reason to ignore it.' Bravo. Your powers of deduction are truly... something.
I did ask for your clarification on the evidence but unfortunately you preferred not to give it. Therefore I'll have to come to my own view. Your argument is that you're certain the settlements aren't unlawful. I don't agree. You made lots of criticism of the newspaper, but I think you're splitting hairs.
 

Hadders

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Linking to this case to keep discussion relating to unlawful prosecutions in one place.


Northern are up to their old tricks again - this time prosecuting someone when they are barred from doing so because the person has appealed a Penalty Fare.

I wonder hoe many more examples there are? Is anyone able to submit a FoI? Is it worth contacting journalists who took an interested in this last summer to let them know it is still going on?
 

KirkstallOne

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I have made some of my journalist contacts aware of this and am going to write to Northern directly again.

Interesting to look at how Northern are handling this compared to what seemed to be their standard policy before the CM’s ruling:

- there doesn’t appear to have been a final offer of settlement with the SJP pack although the passenger in this recent case would have to confirm
- the penalty service state that the TOC is ‘entitled’ to bring a prosecution if payment is not made in 14 days. This wording implies that this is some sort of statutory limit rather than an arbitrary and most likely unlawful deadline
- Northern say in their statement of facts that they cancelled the Penalty Fare (albeit outside the deadlines set out in the regulations). This suggests they are aware of the importance of regulation 11

It does seem that Northern just cannot accept that they have no criminal route to recover unpaid and appealed penalty fares. They must think their entire revenue collection world will come crashing down if they accept what seems to be the clear intention of the regulations.

I have actually just submitted on FOI to nexus on this as a recent thread made me aware they have a very short window between non-payment and prosecution and I wondered whether this extended to appealed penalty fares as well.

Just noticed this blog post on the original scandal by a reader in law at City St Georges. Quite a good write up.

In Ballington v Northern Trains Ltd [2024] 8 WLUK 114 the Chief Magistrate ruled that the wrong procedure had been used to secure a large number of convictions for offences relating to travelling without a valid ticket. The case has contributed to a general pattern of concern that the law in this area is apt to cause confusion and that those charged with enforcement lack clear policies on which action to pursue in which circumstances. The whole system of revenue protection and related offences and penalties is now being reviewed by the Office of Road and Rail Regulation (ORR) in a major ‘Review of train operators’ revenue protection policies.’

As will be seen below, the legal framework is indeed complex and travelling without a valid ticket for the journey could give rise to different offences and liabilities. In many cases the rail companies have no clear strategy as to which remedy to pursue in which circumstances. Passengers can be left confused as to whether they can travel when confronted with unstaffed stations and out of order ticket machines. The media is replete with accounts of individuals claiming to have incurred disproportionate penalties for minor infractions and honest mistakes. At the same time, fare evasion is not a victimless crime and costs the rail companies £240m per year, according to the Rail Delivery Group, which is passed on to honest passengers in increased fares.

https://blogs.city.ac.uk/railwaysan...-v-ballington-revenue-protection-and-the-law/
 
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island

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I am aware of some Southeastern SJP filings for byelaw 18 (1) cases dancing around the issue by stating in their statements of case "a penalty fare was issued and it was either not paid or was appealed and the appeal was unsuccessful".

It makes quite a significant difference which of these is the case.
 

Wolfie

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It really does seem like the TOCs will push things until they ultimately lose the ability to bring private prosecutions.
 

Egg Centric

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I am aware of some Southeastern SJP filings for byelaw 18 (1) cases dancing around the issue by stating in their statements of case "a penalty fare was issued and it was either not paid or was appealed and the appeal was unsuccessful".

It makes quite a significant difference which of these is the case.

What is a magistrate (?) supposed to do when receiving such a filing?
 

island

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What is a magistrate (?) supposed to do when receiving such a filing?
A magistrate could send the case back to the prosecutor so that the filing can be clarified, or chuck it out of the SJP to be dealt with by summons to a full court.
 

Fawkes Cat

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A magistrate could send the case back to the prosecutor so that the filing can be clarified, or chuck it out of the SJP to be dealt with by summons to a full court.
Does this help us with practical advice for the OP in the current thread? Does this mean that we should be advising them

- to plead 'not guilty' (I think someone has already said that bit)
- to enclose with their plea a statement that the penalty fare was appealed so under <whatever the specific reference is> of the Penalty Fare Regulations this must mean that the charge cannot be brought*, and because the charge is not valid, the OP cannot be guilty of it.

I'll admit to not having the expertise to advise on court procedure, so I'll just leave this here rather than trying to offer it as advice in the current thread: OP not unreasonably says they want maximum support so it would be better if someone who does know the right wording to use can give the precise form of language to use.

(Edit - and I now see that @KirkstallOne appears to be on to just that - many thanks)


*or whatever the right word is
 

Egg Centric

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Just a theory with the Northern thing - I wonder if someone has been on long term sick leave / maternity leave / a sabbatical. And not been briefed on their return that the landscape has changed (ie the law is not as Northern was treating it).

I'm just finding it so hard to compute this level of failure otherwise. You would have thought they would be being extra careful about not repeating this mistake.
 

KirkstallOne

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My theory is they have either had some tortuous legal advice to allow this to continue (see the Post Office for how that can happen, and their KC made an attempt at last year’s hearing before throwing in the towel) or the DRPU is really badly supervised and has gone rogue again.
 

KirkstallOne

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Do you happen to have the skeleton argument or anything like that?
PM sent

The gov.uk page was updated 21st March. I believe the new bits are:

All identified cases were listed before the court on several dates between Thursday 28 November 2024 and Thursday 13 February 2025. Cases related to a particular rail provider were heard together and the people involved in these cases were not required to attend those hearings.

The court took the decision to declare these cases invalid. HMCTS has used court records and case information held by rail providers to contact the vast majority of those affected in writing. These letters outline what will happen next, depending on whether an individual has already paid none, some or all of a financial penalty relating to their case.

For a small minority of cases where HMCTS needs to clarify the data it holds relating to the case, those individuals will be contacted during the next few weeks.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/train-company-prosecutions/train-company-prosecutions

Kind of amazed no-one has come on here with one of these letters as I am sure we would all like to see one. I spotted someone who looked like they must have got one on twitter but they never responded to me.
 
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