Unused Capacity at Glasgow Queen St Low Level Station

[clc]

I've read that Queen St Low Level has a capacity of 13tph. However, it only handles 8tph. How could this spare capacity best be utilised? Obviously a turn back west of Charing Cross would be required so let's assume that was built.

Increasing Airdrie - Bathgate from 4tph to 6tph is mentioned in the Route Study as a long term aspiration so presumably that would be the priority. What, if anything, could we do with the remaining 3tph?

 

[Dr Hoo]

For context's sake, where did you read the capacity figure, please?

Given your comments about a turn back - to avoid the Patrick bottleneck - we are presumably restricted to suggesting locations to the East.

 

[Altnabreac]

The Scotland Route Study suggests a 2043 service of 10tph:
6tph Airdrie - Bathgate.
2tph Springburn - Cumbernauld.
2tph Springburn - Maryhill.

Not sure there is much demand or necessity for service levels beyond that.

 

[clc]

For context's sake, where did you read the capacity figure, please?
.

See Table 8 on page 12:

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/Doc/47034/0026911.pdf
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The Scotland Route Study suggests a 2043 service of 10tph:
6tph Airdrie - Bathgate.
2tph Springburn - Cumbernauld.
2tph Springburn - Maryhill.

Not sure there is much demand or necessity for service levels beyond that.

How about Renfrew-Charing Cross via the City Union Line?

 

[The Planner]

Why do you need to fill it just because its there?

 

[clc]

Why do you need to fill it just because its there?

I dont. I'm trying to establish if there's likely to be a viable use for it in future. Obviously any proposals would have to stand up to an appraisal of economic/social benefits.

 

[anti-pacer]

Are Glasgow's rail services busy enough to justify more trains?

 

[clc]

Are Glasgow's rail services busy enough to justify more trains?

Yes and they are expected to get busier. Network Rail's high growth scenario estimates the morning peak commuter market will increase by 128% between 2012-2043. Growth in cross border demand will also have to be accommodated along with potential new services such as Edinburgh-Glasgow HSR and GARL if it ever happens.

A new city centre terminal station might be needed in the long term, possibly in the St Enoch area, ironically.

 

[Carntyne]

A turnback between Charing Cross and Finnieston East Jn would be required.

 

[LAX54]

If you fill every gap available, like for example going from 8tph to 13tph, then there goes any chance of recovering a service when it all goes wrong !

 

[Carntyne]

An easier step would be to introduce a 6 car railway on the Strathclyde routes before adding further capacity,

 

[anti-pacer]

Yes and they are expected to get busier. Network Rail's high growth scenario estimates the morning peak commuter market will increase by 128% between 2012-2043. Growth in cross border demand will also have to be accommodated along with potential new services such as Edinburgh-Glasgow HSR and GARL if it ever happens.

A new city centre terminal station might be needed in the long term, possibly in the St Enoch area, ironically.

I'm surprised. I half expected commuter trains in Glasgow to be running around half empty in the peaks.

 

[Carntyne]

I'm surprised. I half expected commuter trains in Glasgow to be running around half empty in the peaks.

Why? It's the densest suburban railway outside of London. Services are heaving in the peaks.

 

[Southsider]

I'm surprised. I half expected commuter trains in Glasgow to be running around half empty in the peaks.

They're generally full during the peaks. Why would you expect otherwise?

 

[anti-pacer]

Full during the peaks. Why would you expect otherwise?

I didn't have Glasgow city centre down as a major employment hub in quite the same way as other provincial cities such as Edinburgh, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham.

I'm obviously wrong.

 

[route:oxford]

A turnback between Charing Cross and Finnieston East Jn would be required.

Or why not just re-open the closed platforms at Queen Street low-level and turn-back there?

 

[PaulLothian]

Greater Glasgow has a population of 1.2 million...

A comment on anti-pacer's post, which I should have quoted!

 

[Carntyne]

Or why not just re-open the closed platforms at Queen Street low-level and turn-back there?

It's a fair point but it'd be a lot more work and expense I reckon. 8 & 9 would need to be pushed back again towards the platform walls.

 

[anti-pacer]

Greater Glasgow has a population of 1.2 million...

A comment on anti-pacer's post, which I should have quoted!

I know it's got a reasonably high population but I didn't realise that the peak hour trains were so busy.

What are the busiest and quietest lines into the city? I can imagjne the North Clyde, Inverclyde, and Ayrshire lines being up there with the busiest.

 

[clc]

I know it's got a reasonably high population but I didn't realise that the peak hour trains were so busy.

What are the busiest and quietest lines into the city? I can imagjne the North Clyde, Inverclyde, and Ayrshire lines being up there with the busiest.

That's right. The Argyle Line is also very busy along with East Kilbride, Neilston and Newton.

Maryhill is probably the quietest route.
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Or why not just re-open the closed platforms at Queen Street low-level and turn-back there?

It's a fair point but it'd be a lot more work and expense I reckon. 8 & 9 would need to be pushed back again towards the platform walls.

Also the extra services wouldn't serve Charing Cross which is a growing business centre.

 

[route:oxford]

Also the extra services wouldn't serve Charing Cross which is a growing business centre.

Wouldn't that depend on which direct the services were terminating from?

 

[Class 170101]

A turnback between Charing Cross and Finnieston East Jn would be required.

Is Glasgow not balanced for demand east and west then? Surely it would be better (and chesper) to provide an equal number of services from the east side of Glasgow as from the west rather than build new infrastructure in the centre of Glasgow which is bound to be expensive?

 

[matchmaker]

I didn't have Glasgow city centre down as a major employment hub in quite the same way as other provincial cities such as Edinburgh, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham.

I'm obviously wrong.

Yes, obviously :roll:

 

[Altnabreac]

Wouldn't that depend on which direct the services were terminating from?

Is Glasgow not balanced for demand east and west then? Surely it would be better (and chesper) to provide an equal number of services from the east side of Glasgow as from the west rather than build new infrastructure in the centre of Glasgow which is bound to be expensive?

The 2 track section from Partick to Hyndland is the constraint. In the absence of 4 tracking this section (which would be very expensive) both Queen St Low Level and Central Low Level have to operate under maximum capacity to the east because of the 2 track section to the west.

So any extra services would be definition be to the east. Turn backs at Finnieston and Charing Cross are much cheaper options than 4 tracking.

 

[anti-pacer]

Yes, obviously :roll:

Why is it obvious? I don't know the employment market of Glasgow. I just knew it had a lot of unemployment and Edinburgh is more the financial centre of Scotland. Maybe I've just not seen the business areas of the city centre.

You have local knowledge, I don't. I conceded I was wrong so why the patronising comment?

 

[me123]

You don't need local knowledge to know that Glasgow is a major employment centre. To suggest that it isn't just shows ignorance.

To turn things around, I don't have any local knowledge about Yorkshire, but I do obviously know that Leeds is a major employment centre.

Back to topic, GLQ LL has capacity but really nowhere for the trains to go. The Finnieston turn back would help trains avoid Partick but also obviously reduces the benefits that going through to the West provides. I won't reiterate my Crossrail rant, but suffice to say it is a deeply flawed proposal that shouldn't see the light of day. The proposed 10tph max outlined above should be sufficient for the long term. You even have capacity to run 8 trains an hour to or from Airdrie if demand necessitates in the future (admittedly with the turn back in Kelvinhaugh). And, as has been said, scope to run six car trains allows for more growth.I think extending to eight carriages is also a possibility (perhaps with SDO at Charing Cross).

The line is basically future proofed. There are no obvious routes that warrant diverting to Queen Street and most if the capacity that is there can be accounted for.

 

[anti-pacer]

You don't need local knowledge to know that Glasgow is a major employment centre. To suggest that it isn't just shows ignorance.

To turn things around, I don't have any local knowledge about Yorkshire, but I do obviously know that Leeds is a major employment centre.

I didn't suggest Glasgow as a CITY wasn't a major employment area, I have just never seen a business area in the city centre. I've seen plenty of shops but not a financial area like Leeds has. Maybe it has one but I've just not been there.

Bellshill I know has a massive industrial estate and business park and a lot of big names are located there, so I know it has areas of major employment.

Are rush hour trains in Glasgow full and standing into the city centre? I ask because given how comprehensive the suburban network is up there, compared to the population, it seems you're rarely far from a station in Glasgow. No other city outside London has a more comprehensive network. Look at Tyne & Wear, it has a similar population but not even half the network Glasgow has, even with the Metro.

Just out interest, where are the office areas of Glasgow city centre?

 

[Class 170101]

The 2 track section from Partick to Hyndland is the constraint. In the absence of 4 tracking this section (which would be very expensive) both Queen St Low Level and Central Low Level have to operate under maximum capacity to the east because of the 2 track section to the west.

So any extra services would be definition be to the east. Turn backs at Finnieston and Charing Cross are much cheaper options than 4 tracking.

Whats the headway for the section and the junction margins at either end?

 

[47271]

Just out interest, where are the office areas of Glasgow city centre?

Turn left out of the main door of Central station, right up Hope Street and then left into Bothwell Street, and everything ahead of you as far as the M8, and two or three blocks either side is the main office area.

 

[anti-pacer]

Turn left out of the main door of Central station, right up Hope Street and then left into Bothwell Street, and everything ahead of you as far as the M8, and two or three blocks either side is the main office area.

Ah OK. I've never been up that end of the city centre. I will take a look next time I'm up, and the riverside.