Updated National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) - Effective from 6th February 2022

[stew]

I’m definitely not as informed as most on here, but can you help me with this scenario.

I book advance tickets for an upcoming football match.

The match finishes at 2145, and I book an advance on a train at 2215 (which is suitable for exit times from stadium etc).

The evening before (by 2200), the 2215 is “cancelled” and removed from the timetables.

The last train is “now” the 2115 service.

What would be my options? And presumably as the 2215 now disappears as opposed to being cancelled, the TOC has no responsibility to get me to my final destination

Thanks

 

[robbeech]

It's a personal view based on my experience working for the railway. The point being that train identity isn't as black and white as had been suggested.

I agree it’s not black and white. But the railway uses grey areas to its advantage. Anything ambiguous should fall in favour of the consumer, but we have seen how well the railway follows consumer law and we have seen how nobody bats an eyelid when they do as they please. So it won’t change a thing.

For one-a-day services like the Chieftain, the Cally, the Riviera etc, yes. But not the 1220 from Euston to Manchester.

I don’t think I even agree with the once a day services. How many passengers that travel on the down Chieftain know it’s the only London to Inverness direct service in the day? I can perhaps see it in the up direction if people pay attention but if they’re only travelling to Newcastle on it from London?

People just blindly throw their origin and destination into a journey planner and see what is cheapest / quickest / least changes / suitable times. And there shouldn’t be anything wrong with that. You don’t need MUCH interest to know there’s only 1 train per day to a certain place but you need SOME and it’s more than a lot of people have.

 

[robbeech]

I’m definitely not as informed as most on here, but can you help me with this scenario.

I book advance tickets for an upcoming football match.

The match finishes at 2145, and I book an advance on a train at 2215 (which is suitable for exit times from stadium etc).

The evening before (by 2200), the 2215 is “cancelled” and removed from the timetables.

The last train is “now” the 2115 service.

What would be my options? And presumably as the 2215 now disappears as opposed to being cancelled, the TOC has no responsibility to get me to my final destination

Thanks

It’s currently unclear (despite it being for clarification) whether their responsibility to get you home still exists. Several laws are relatively clear suggesting that they must, but for all intents and purposes the railway seems to be able to pick and choose whether it abides by laws or not in the real world. There is absolutely no doubt that things will become more difficult moving forward in this scenario. A scenario that appears to have become more common place. The only written changes appear to be for delay repay but it is all under the subject of disruption so who knows.

In theory you may still be provided with alternative transport to stop you being stranded but I suspect they’ll try even harder than they do already to get out of it.
In your scenario you’d be best advised (and it’s certainly what the railway will want you to do*) to make other arrangements at your own cost and seek a refund from the retailer.


*Actually the railway would sooner you notice the change and use the earlier train regardless of how it inconveniences you as that way they keep the money.

 

[Haywain]

But the railway uses grey areas to its advantage.

So do passengers. It's not as one way as you make out.

 

[robbeech]

So do passengers. It's not as one way as you make out.

Can’t argue with that one bit but consumer law is on the passenger’s side here* so the railway should do a better job at clarification if they have a problem with it.


*Not that it applies to the railway in the real world.

 

[AlterEgo]

But it is how passengers see things. If they have booked on the 1200 Kings Cross to Inverness, and it's retimed to depart at 12:20 they still see it as 'the Inverness train'.

How does that work for other LNER services then, not just the ones which conveniently runs just once a day?

What if the Inverness train is retimed and now finishes at Edinburgh due to engineering work?

 

[stew]

It’s currently unclear (despite it being for clarification) whether their responsibility to get you home still exists. Several laws are relatively clear suggesting that they must, but for all intents and purposes the railway seems to be able to pick and choose whether it abides by laws or not in the real world. There is absolutely no doubt that things will become more difficult moving forward in this scenario. A scenario that appears to have become more common place. The only written changes appear to be for delay repay but it is all under the subject of disruption so who knows.

In theory you may still be provided with alternative transport to stop you being stranded but I suspect they’ll try even harder than they do already to get out of it.
In your scenario you’d be best advised (and it’s certainly what the railway will want you to do*) to make other arrangements at your own cost and seek a refund from the retailer.


*Actually the railway would sooner you notice the change and use the earlier train regardless of how it inconveniences you as that way they keep the money.

I do worry that the "timetable of the day" / 2200 deadline, almost means that you actually can't plan a specific journey at specific times "just in case" the TOC decides to cancel the service. Even for branches where an hourly service operates, getting to your destination an hour late could make a big difference (Dentist appointment for example, where they ask for 48 hours notice for cancellation). As someone who relies on public transport due to sight issues (unable to drive), I feel the cancellation of expected services is a pretty poor show

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do worry that the "timetable of the day" / 2200 deadline, almost means that you actually can't plan a specific journey at specific times "just in case" the TOC decides to cancel the service. Even for branches where an hourly service operates, getting to your destination an hour late could make a big difference (Dentist appointment for example, where they ask for 48 hours notice for cancellation). As someone who relies on public transport due to sight issues (unable to drive), I feel the cancellation of expected services is a pretty poor show

I do however think setting some sort of deadline is reasonable. In line with airline practice, 7 or 14 days might be more reasonable. 2200 the night before definitely is not, and you can guarantee this will be misused.

 

[robbeech]

I do worry that the "timetable of the day" / 2200 deadline, almost means that you actually can't plan a specific journey at specific times "just in case" the TOC decides to cancel the service. Even for branches where an hourly service operates, getting to your destination an hour late could make a big difference (Dentist appointment for example, where they ask for 48 hours notice for cancellation). As someone who relies on public transport due to sight issues (unable to drive), I feel the cancellation of expected services is a pretty poor show

That’s exactly what it means and I think this viewpoint is crucial. You simply cannot plan a journey on the railway. But, maybe it’s not that new a problem.

The argument will be that a cancellation can happen at any time and 2200 the night before gives you more notice than 1 hour before on the day. But at the same time cancellations on the day are (currently) advertised much better than removals from the timetable which are usually done essentially in secret.

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m definitely not as informed as most on here, but can you help me with this scenario.

I book advance tickets for an upcoming football match.

The match finishes at 2145, and I book an advance on a train at 2215 (which is suitable for exit times from stadium etc).

The evening before (by 2200), the 2215 is “cancelled” and removed from the timetables.

The last train is “now” the 2115 service.

What would be my options? And presumably as the 2215 now disappears as opposed to being cancelled, the TOC has no responsibility to get me to my final destination

Thanks

You have already purchased your ticket and the current, not the new Conditions of Travel do not apply, so this thread is beyond the scope of answering this question.

This thread contains a helpful discussion https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...nd-i-cant-get-home.227044/page-4#post-5508701 which you might find useful.

 

[Class800]

You have already purchased your ticket and the current, not the new Conditions of Travel do not apply, so this thread is beyond the scope of answering this question.

This thread contains a helpful discussion https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...nd-i-cant-get-home.227044/page-4#post-5508701 which you might find useful.

But will they really be able and willing to implement two different sets of conditions on travellers on the same day depending on date of purchase. I doubt it. I think it will all be done as per new conditions, regardless of whether that is purely correct

 

[stew]

You have already purchased your ticket and the current, not the new Conditions of Travel do not apply, so this thread is beyond the scope of answering this question.

This thread contains a helpful discussion https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...nd-i-cant-get-home.227044/page-4#post-5508701 which you might find useful.

I have not yet booked a ticket. I was asking help for a scenario which was intended to show a hypothetical journey under the new Conditions of Travel.

My sentence "I book advance tickets for a football match" was intended to show that too.

Sorry for not being clear enough

 

[Haywain]

How does that work for other LNER services then, not just the ones which conveniently runs just once a day?

What if the Inverness train is retimed and now finishes at Edinburgh due to engineering work?

Do you not get the bit about things not being as black and white as you are suggesting? The point is there is not one simple 'fits all' solution.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you not get the bit about things not being as black and white as you are suggesting? The point is there is not one simple 'fits all' solution.

But there has to be in the Conditions. After all, this edition has arrived to provide "clarity". When is it the same train, and when is it not?

If passengers only book using the departure time, origin and destination, and not any sort of unique identifier like a headcode or train number (like a flight number), then it is likely to be considered a different train by a court even if you move the departure time by ten minutes.

 

[Haywain]

But there has to be in the Conditions. After all, this edition has arrived to provide "clarity". When is it the same train, and when is it not?

The conditions should be clear. I would suggest that ideas about how train identities are defined and used would be better in a separate thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The conditions should be clear. I would suggest that ideas about how train identities are defined and used would be better in a separate thread.

The conditions are not clear. If they were, this whole discussion would not be taking place.

 

[Haywain]

The conditions are not clear.

That's what I said. They are not, and they should be.

 

[typefish]

So presumably people wishing to travel between two locations where it's not possible to get a through ticket are to be disadvantaged by this?

 

[AlterEgo]

So presumably people wishing to travel between two locations where it's not possible to get a through ticket are to be disadvantaged by this?

Which bit of the new conditions do you have in mind?

 

[Kite159]

I do worry that the "timetable of the day" / 2200 deadline, almost means that you actually can't plan a specific journey at specific times "just in case" the TOC decides to cancel the service. Even for branches where an hourly service operates, getting to your destination an hour late could make a big difference (Dentist appointment for example, where they ask for 48 hours notice for cancellation). As someone who relies on public transport due to sight issues (unable to drive), I feel the cancellation of expected services is a pretty poor show

Or even if you plan to go away on a weekend trip and come back to discover the TOC has decided to throw in the towel on the Sunday and the last train is 6+ hours earlier than expected (for example if they know there is limited staff working due to a sporting event the night before). All pre cancelled the night before.

Especially if the tickets held is an advance on the long distance service, then to a open return for the 2nd leg [due to "Long Distance TOC + Connections tickets being non existence]

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Or even if you plan to go away on a weekend trip and come back to discover the TOC has decided to throw in the towel on the Sunday and the last train is 6+ hours earlier than expected (for example if they know there is limited staff working due to a sporting event the night before). All pre cancelled the night before.

Especially if the tickets held is an advance on the long distance service, then to a open return for the 2nd leg [due to "Long Distance TOC + Connections tickets being non existence]

Undoubtedly only finalising the timetable at the end of the previous day isn't good, but let's try and work out how big a problem this is.

For example, how often have services been cut back by six hours?

 

[stew]

Undoubtedly only finalising the timetable at the end of the previous day isn't good, but let's try and work out how big a problem this is.

For example, how often have services been cut back by six hours?

But you can’t work out the scale of the problem until it actually happens, and then it’s too late for the person who is stuck at random station as a “timetable at time of booking” is no longer an agreement that those trains (or substitute transport/hotel) will actually operate.

 

[nickswift99]

Undoubtedly only finalising the timetable at the end of the previous day isn't good, but let's try and work out how big a problem this is.

For example, how often have services been cut back by six hours?

I see your logic but I'm not sure it matters. It only ever needs to happen once if you're a customer.

6 hours may be extreme but there are lots of parts of the network where even just removing an early evening train, never mind the last one, would leave a customer unable to complete their journey.

As others have pointed out, there's no effective notice if it's given at 2200 the night before. Customers won't be able to start to find alternatives until the following morning, which in many cases will be too late for any affordable alternative.

My personal view is that the only way this change would be reasonable is if all advance purchase tickets are banned and only walk ups are permitted. This would at least be honest. The railway can then become a turn up and hope system for intrepid travellers with alternative means, while the rest of us get in our cars or use buses.

 

[robbeech]

For example, how often have services been cut back by six hours?

Very very rarely indeed. But it only has to be cut back by an hour and the passenger be unaware and it might aswell have been cut back by six months if they’ve missed it.

The key point is it’s likely rare to be cut back so severely BECAUSE they currently have a responsibility to get passengers home. Take that away on the 6th Feb and we may see this sort of thing becoming more frequent.

If we take severe disruption that is likely to go into several days. A landslide, a derailment, heaven forbid a collision. With the new regulations the railway just pulls everything for the following 3 or 4 days and the last one out turns the light off. If you had tickets, tough, walk.

We cannot use current data to determine what will happen when we change the rules. If we changed the speed limit in the motorway to 90, would everyone still do 70? Some already do 90 against the rules (as the railway already leaves people stranded).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But you can’t work out the scale of the problem until it actually happens,

Well that's the end of the insurance industry then.

Rather less flippantly - but to make the same point - it's entirely feasible to work out the scale of the problem. Do we know how often the railways currently and historically make substantial changes to the timetable at short notice? Do we have any reason to think that this will change - and by how much, and in what direction?

For sure, I cannot say that your planned journey next Thursday on the last train from Paddington to Swansea will go perfectly, or will be a disaster. But it does seem to me that we can predict - in broad terms, so maybe to the nearest thousand or so customers - how many people will have their travel disrupted / made impossible on any given day as a result of the railway changing things. And if our 'broad terms' figure is quite low, then it may be that actually not many people will be disadvantaged by not knowing the timetable for certain until 2200 the previous night.

As I said earlier, relying on the timetable as it stands the previous night certainly isn't good. But let's try to size the problem so that we can decide whether this is a battle worth fighting.

 

[stew]

Well that's the end of the insurance industry then.

Rather less flippantly - but to make the same point - it's entirely feasible to work out the scale of the problem. Do we know how often the railways currently and historically make substantial changes to the timetable at short notice? Do we have any reason to think that this will change - and by how much, and in what direction?

For sure, I cannot say that your planned journey next Thursday on the last train from Paddington to Swansea will go perfectly, or will be a disaster. But it does seem to me that we can predict - in broad terms, so maybe to the nearest thousand or so customers - how many people will have their travel disrupted / made impossible on any given day as a result of the railway changing things. And if our 'broad terms' figure is quite low, then it may be that actually not many people will be disadvantaged by not knowing the timetable for certain until 2200 the previous night.

As I said earlier, relying on the timetable as it stands the previous night certainly isn't good. But let's try to size the problem so that we can decide whether this is a battle worth fighting.

I'm sorry but I don't think your opening sentence was necessary.

For someone who is partially sighted and relies on the railways for travel, the change of conditions is very worrying. For myself, planning of journeys removes the anxiety element as I know "when" trains are likely to operate. Scrambling for last minute options (or from 2200 the night before travel) is not ideal for anyone, or on the morning of travel if you go to bed before 2200 (for whatever reason before you make a sarcastic reply).

For experienced train travellers who can have full vision, navigating online journey planners is simple. For others, this is far from ideal.

 

[yorkie]

As I said earlier, relying on the timetable as it stands the previous night certainly isn't good. But let's try to size the problem so that we can decide whether this is a battle worth fighting.

This is very much a battle worth fighting in my opinion.

 

[Jason12]

It seems to me that what the new NRCoT is saying is that the bi-annual published timetables (May/December) are now merely guidance and not to be relied on for the purpose of deciding whether a service is scheduled to operate. It may be that the Published Timetable of the Day shows a service scheduled to run weeks or even months in advance. As it's been published, it then forms the basis as to whether on the day, that service has been cancelled, delayed or rescheduled.

What is not entirely clear is whether, once published as part of the Timetable of the Day, services can then be amended again, and again, right up to 22:00 the prior evening, and what happens if this is done once a customer has already bought a ticket based on the first or earlier Published TotD.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is very much a battle worth fighting in my opinion.

I wouldn't say it was over Delay Repay, but you're probably already aware that I believe the overall effect of Delay Repay on the industry and its users has been negative. Though that's one for another thread.

If we believe it will legitimise strandings, I'd completely agree. Only in very extreme circumstances is the railway not in the position to assist someone who is stranded with either a taxi, bus or hotel.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

It may be that the Published Timetable of the Day shows a service scheduled to run weeks or even months in advance.
[...]
What is not entirely clear is whether, once published as part of the Timetable of the Day, services can then be amended again, and again, right up to 22:00 the prior evening ...

My reading is that the Published Timetable of the Day (PTD) won't exist until it is published (once only) the evening before the day it covers, some time before 2200.