Upskirting Train Driver Avoids Prison

[Skimble19]

I suspsect that the driver in question is now a former driver.

Correct, has actually been a former driver since January 2023. Some sites have included this (e.g Metro), others haven’t.

 

[greyman42]

How did the offence come to light?

 

[furnessvale]

When it happened it led to disciplinary action, so it was clearly considered to be misconduct. I'm not sure what it's got to do with train drivers though.

It also led to two years in jail, so it was treated quite seriously.

 

[Revilo]

A (knighted) Conservative MP made it implicitly clear he objected to this being a criminal offence.

(Chopes, 2018)

This is misleading. The MP, Christopher Chope, blocked the passage of the law in objection to parliamentary procedure rather than to the bill itself. He stated that he would "wholeheartedly" support a government bill that outlawed upskirting.

 

[Wychwood93]

This is misleading. The MP, Christopher Chope, blocked the passage of the law in objection to parliamentary procedure rather than to the bill itself. He stated that he would "wholeheartedly" support a government bill that outlawed upskirting.

Indeed. He is my local MP and objects to bills being 'nodded through' without being discussed.

 

[43066]

With respect, although the investigating police office refers to him being in a position of trust, I cannot see that it is a relevant factor: the victim was asleep, so the driver's uniform made no difference to their ability to upskirt her.

It’s highly relevant. The public has the right to expect that identifiable railway staff members will act properly and can be trusted. Offending of this nature while wearing his employer’s uniform is, quite correctly, viewed more seriously than if he hadn’t been.

This character is clearly a wrong’un of the highest order, who deserves whatever he gets, and who the railway is well rid of.

I wonder if a police officer who shares pictures of murdered corpses with colleagues is guilty of abusing a position of trust (and if the colleagues are if they don't report it), whether or not anyone was upset by them. I guess it's misconduct in public office anyway.

They absolutely are. No requirement for anyone to be offended/upset.

Indeed. He is my local MP and objects to bills being 'nodded through' without being discussed.

Agreed. It’s a valid point given the increasing prevalence of “Henry VIII legislation” via statutory instrument, lacking parliamentary scrutiny.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed. He is my local MP and objects to bills being 'nodded through' without being discussed.

For someone who has been elected, several times, to a debating chamber he turned out to be rather poor at communicating why he opposed the legislation. Had he done so in an effective way he could have avoided all the opprobrium that went in his direction as a direct result of his actions.

 

[6Gman]

No, that's the passenger who assaulted a female guard, who I linked to in a reply as an example of the opposite type of offence (passenger against staff).


For the England Premier League, VAR was introduced for the 2019-2020 season; he was convicted in relation to the smashed TV in May 2019.


Yes, indeed. I wrote that he was said to be suspended in reply to the OP's suspicion that he was now a 'former driver'. I believe that voyeurism has a long history on the railway - wasn't there a story about an LBSCR motorman suspected of wedging his controller so he could clamber along the footboards and spy on a courting couple in one of the compartments, and coming to grief in Crystal Palace tunnel?

I was told there was a member of staff at a Staffordshire station in the 50s/60s who drilled holes in the ceiling of the ladies' toilets in order to watch.

A strange inclination which came to an end when he fell through the ceiling onto a startled user!

 

[Samzino]

Slightly off topic but seems he was on a show called the countdown and has a few ads he was in: https://www.starnow.com/u/Bar1/

 

[norbitonflyer]

How did the offence come to light?

Accoring to the newspaper item she complained to the BTP herself. She had caught him at it when she woke up, and then he tried to get one last shot as she stood up to leave the train.

 

[Egg Centric]

Slightly off topic but seems he was on a show called the countdown and has a few ads he was in: https://www.starnow.com/u/Bar1/

Think some of the other parts seem more in character...

 

[ainsworth74]

This is misleading. The MP, Christopher Chope, blocked the passage of the law in objection to parliamentary procedure rather than to the bill itself. He stated that he would "wholeheartedly" support a government bill that outlawed upskirting.

Indeed. He is my local MP and objects to bills being 'nodded through' without being discussed.

Agreed. It’s a valid point given the increasing prevalence of “Henry VIII legislation” via statutory instrument, lacking parliamentary scrutiny.

That all being said, it is still slightly odd therefore that Mr Chope has no problem introducing Private Members bills himself which are flawed in exactly the same way that he appears to vociferously object to. Strikes me as somewhat odd if he is so concerned about bills not receiving a proper debate (that in any event have zero chance of becoming law unless adopted by the Government at which point they will get debated*) he would try and use the same process for his own bills? Oddly he is also known to not object to bills put down his friends either...

*Debate is a strong word, the dire state of law making in this country means that in reality bills don't get any real scrutiny until they reach the Lords and what does happen in the Commons is basically just a bit of showmanship to allow MPs to get a quick clip for Social Media or a positive story for the next leaflet drop by party activists or in the local media. But that's a whole other topic!

 

[38Cto15E]

Back in the day, it wasn't unknown for drivers to stop their train underneath the station footbridge.

 

[snookertam]

I didn't see that. I am wondering if there are mental health issues? Although the behaviour does sound like straightfoward blokey toxic masculinity, and if we start locking all those cases up (which I'd support), there wouldn't be enough jail places. And many of the police would have to be confined, too, which would complicate matters. I had to look up what a 'VAR decision' is; it seems to be something to do with soccer.

If his behaviour can be described as ‘straightforward blokey toxic masculinity’ I’m going to have to review my understanding of the term.

 

[AlterEgo]

If his behaviour can be described as ‘straightforward blokey toxic masculinity’ I’m going to have to review my understanding of the term.

Indeed. He's a sex offender, plain and simple.

 

[156421]

Indeed. He's a sex offender, plain and simple.

I think there are 2 different individuals being discussed, one a train driver who "upskirted" a passenger, the other a passenger punched a conductor/revenue checker in the face. This isn't the first time in the thread that the 2 stories have been conflated.

 

[6Gman]

Back in the day, it wasn't unknown for drivers to stop their train underneath the station footbridge.

I am reminded of a poem that appeared in a bus industry staff magazine at the time (late 1960s ?) when fashions changed from miniskirts to maxiskirts (i.e. ankle length).

Conductor, glumly taking fares,
Watching girls going up the stairs.
"Now that they are wearing 'maxi'
Might as well drive a bloomin' taxi!"

Wouldn't get published today I suspect but I think it was coined good naturedly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there are 2 different individuals being discussed, one a train driver who "upskirted" a passenger, the other a passenger punched a conductor/revenue checker in the face. This isn't the first time in the thread that the 2 stories have been conflated.

To be fair I'd personally like to see both carry a prison sentence.

 

[AndyPJG]

I think there are 2 different individuals being discussed, one a train driver who "upskirted" a passenger, the other a passenger punched a conductor/revenue checker in the face. This isn't the first time in the thread that the 2 stories have been conflated.

I previously reported the absence of a quote in the original post to the moderators for this very reason, with the response that the OP had been requestedinvited to edit the post to provide it; no action to date.

 

[MP33]

The first generation double deck trams had a metal cover that swung across above the conductor. If it was not, the conductor could be sacked for getting a glimpse of an Edwardian ankle going up the stairs.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Good grief, nine previous convictions (including smashing up a pub TV because he disagreed with a VAR decision) but his lawyer thinks that he has learned his lesson this time?

Good grief, nine previous convictions (including smashing up a pub TV because he disagreed with a VAR decision) but his lawyer thinks that he has learned his lesson this time?

What is a grinder? It says the child hit her head on a grinder when being lifted over the barrier.

 

[Somewhere]

I wonder if a police officer who shares pictures of murdered corpses with colleagues is guilty of abusing a position of trust (and if the colleagues are if they don't report it), whether or not anyone was upset by them. I guess it's misconduct in public office anyway.

I expect the police officer came into possession of the pictures in the course of their duty, whilst on duty, in a location to which the public do not have access
The driver was off duty, in a public location, with no special access to the circumstances which placed him in a position to take the photos.
Position of trust doesn't come into it, unless maybe an off duty member of staff has identified themselves as such to assist in a situation

 

[norbitonflyer]

What is a grinder? It says the child hit her head on a grinder when being lifted over the barrier.

Two Manchester Evening News reports of the same incident say she hit a girder, which makes more sense. They took a bit of finding as the ITV report gives the man a different first name.

He punched a woman - so what happens when someone calls him a 'coward'?

Darren Corr told a court he took 'full responsibility' - he was less repentant on social media

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[contrex]

The first generation double deck trams had a metal cover that swung across above the conductor. If it was not, the conductor could be sacked for getting a glimpse of an Edwardian ankle going up the stairs.

In the late 1970s, I worked at an electronics firm that had a 'stores' section that was elevated; it was a kind of glorified Dexion set up with mesh floor and none of the female staff would go up there because men could stand underneath and look up their skirts, and I remember what must be an urban myth that some girls' schools forbade their pupils to wear patent-leather shoes because men could look at them and see a reflection of that region.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I expect the police officer came into possession of the pictures in the course of their duty, whilst on duty, in a location to which the public do not have access
The driver was off duty, in a public location, with no special access to the circumstances which placed him in a position to take the photos.
Position of trust doesn't come into it, unless maybe an off duty member of staff has identified themselves as such to assist in a situation

I would argue there is an abuse of position of trust. If I were a lone female on a late night train and in one coach there was a drunk man in civvies and in the next coach was a man dressed in railway uniform, I would feel safer being sat in the coach with the man in railway uniform.
Passengers are told that if they need any assistance they should seek out a member of railway staff, we all have a duty of care to passengers whilst representing the railway by wearing its uniform.

 

[43066]

I would argue there is an abuse of position of trust. If I were a lone female on a late night train and in one coach there was a drunk man in civvies and in the next coach was a man dressed in railway uniform, I would feel safer being sat in the coach with the man in railway uniform.
Passengers are told that if they need any assistance they should seek out a member of railway staff, we all have a duty of care to passengers whilst representing the railway by wearing its uniform.

Absolutely. There’s also the fact that those same passengers will read about this particular sex-pest-in-TOC-uniform, and potentially have less trust in staff in the future. In that respect this offence is worse than if a regular passenger had committed it, not that that would be any less distressing for the victim, of course.

 

[12LDA28C]

Correct, has actually been a former driver since January 2023. Some sites have included this (e.g Metro), others haven’t.

If a train driver's licence is suspended by the ORR, they would not be able to gain future employment as a driver with any TOC or FOC.

 

[reb0118]

All factors will be taken into consideration including such things as the costs involved in training a replacement and whether or not there was an actual rule prohibiting the said behaviour.

 

[43066]

All factors will be taken into consideration including such things as the costs involved in training a replacement and whether or not there was an actual rule prohibiting the said behaviour.

This isn’t correct. There wouldn’t be any question over whether someone who commits a criminal offence against a passenger would be dismissed. The cost of training a replacement is irrelevant, as the person has proven themselves completely unfit for continued employment.

There certainly wouldn’t need to be a specific rule specifying that upskirting someone at work isn’t allowed, just as it’s unlikely to be expressly written anywhere that you mustn't commit sexual assault at work; it’s pretty much the definition of behaviour that will bring the employer into disrepute, breach the implied term of trust and confidence in the employment contract etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All factors will be taken into consideration including such things as the costs involved in training a replacement and whether or not there was an actual rule prohibiting the said behaviour.

There doesn't need to be a rule against the commission of a serious criminal offence (sex offence) while on duty. It is gross misconduct in any job and would justify immediate summary dismissal.