Urgent - court case Friday 12th April

[Thornsandroses]

Hello,

I'm wondering if you can help me please as I'm in a horrible situation.

Last year, I took a journey from Sheffield to Manchester Airport via Manchester Piccadilly. I had a ticket for the journey. On the day, the trains were a total mess at Manchester Piccadilly and I couldn't find my change. It is important to note here that I am deaf and cannot hear announcements. I gather there were delays and changes - everyone was running everywhere and it was pandemonium. I spoke to a train guard to advised me to get on a train. I did so.

When the inspector came, I showed them my ticket and they said it was the wrong one. I have no idea why. I couldn't hear them properly and they were so rude and wouldn't take my answers. They were argumentative and I was extremely stressed on a packed train so I crumbled and gave them my details. I figured I would get a letter and could show my ticket then. The rest of my journey was a nightmare and I didn't think about it again as I was busy dealing with flights etc.

The next I heard of this was 18 months letter, when out of the blue I received a Final Steps Notice with no details and a £500 fine. It took me a few days to get through to the court and they explained it was due to that journey. After a few weeks, they agreed to reopen the case and gave me the date for next Friday. In the meantime, they've been taking repayments out of my universal credit which is a nightmare because I'm already struggling to survive.

I've requested details of the case and any relevant documents but have received nothing so I'm going into this situation blind, having no idea what happened at the court case I hadn't attended (because I knew nothing about it!)

I've tried to access help through the Citizens Advice Centre but never get through to anyone. I'm so anxious I'm having panic attacks. I have no one to go with me and if the conviction stays, it will ruin my career as I'm in training to become a mental health professional. Can anyone offer any advice please?

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi. The guys here will know what to do, I'm sure they'll come to your thread as soon as they can.

It seems you've missed some correspondence from the train company. Have you moved house?

 

[transportphoto]

The next I heard of this was 18 months letter, when out of the blue I received a Final Steps Notice with no details and a £500 fine. It took me a few days to get through to the court and they explained it was due to that journey. After a few weeks, they agreed to reopen the case and gave me the date for next Friday. In the meantime, they've been taking repayments out of my universal credit which is a nightmare because I'm already struggling to survive.

This sounds like you’ve already been convicted - is that the case? If so, what were the offence(s)?

When you say that they agreed to reopen the case, what was involved in this process? Did you make a statutory declaration to the effect that you were unaware of the conviction?

 

[Thornsandroses]

Thanks. Yes I was in the process of moving house that month. They sent everything to an old address from before the one I was moving from though.

Even the notice of the new court date was addressed to that old, old address, even though I gave the court the new address on the phone. The only reason I knew about the new date was because they also emailed it, because I had emailed them.

This sounds like you’ve already been convicted - is that the case? If so, what were the offence(s)?

When you say that they agreed to reopen the case, what was involved in this process? Did you make a statutory declaration to the effect that you were unaware of the conviction?

I don't even know. The letters give me very little information.

When I received the Final Steps Notice, I called up and was given minimal info. I then emailed with my tickets and they replied saying they were reopening the case. I was then emailed a letter that had this as the heading:

Your Application to Re-Open a Case under Section 142 Magistrates Court Act 1980
(Fail to produce deliver rail ticket)

This sounds like you’ve already been convicted - is that the case? If so, what were the offence(s)?

When you say that they agreed to reopen the case, what was involved in this process? Did you make a statutory declaration to the effect that you were unaware of the conviction?

I've didn't even know making a statutory declaration was a choice

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Thornsandroses. Welcome to the forum. Are you able to upload a picture of the correspondence you've just now received? Please be sure to cover up your name and address details, and any case reference number. Thanks.

 

[Titfield]

Please can you scan and post the letter(s) or documents you have received?

Please obscure any personal details: names, dates, reference numbers etc?

As regards the earlier court hearing, as you were not present you would have been found guilty in your absence. It would literally have been over in a matter of a few minutes as you were not there to enter a plea - which presumably would have been not guilty - and then you would have been able to tell your version of events and provide the appropriate evidence (the train ticket) etc.

 

[30907]

As you have

Thanks. Yes I was in the process of moving house that month. They sent everything to an old address from before the one I was moving from though.

And I presume you didn't set up a redirection order with Royal Mail?

Your Application to Re-Open a Case under Section 142 Magistrates Court Act 1980
(Fail to produce deliver rail ticket)

This - it says - is a discretionary option in the interests of justice.

I've didn't even know making a statutory declaration was a choice

It is the normal route in these circumstances, but as far as I can see you have the desired effect, only possibly with less notice.

It would also help if you could tell us what sort of ticket you had. I would guess an Advance fare, specific train only.

Edit: a conviction for travelling without a valid ticket - if you are unable to negotiate with the train company- is very unlikely to ruin your career, provided you don't try to hide it.

 

[Thornsandroses]

@Thornsandroses. Welcome to the forum. Are you able to upload a picture of the correspondence you've just now received? Please be sure to cover up your name and address details, and any case reference number. Thanks.

I can't on this device, sorry. I have given all the information on the letters, apart from the court date.

 

[Puffing Devil]

This is an unfortunate mess. Reopening the case can effectively reset the matter back to the first hearing, though doesn't guarantee a retrial that would be automatic with a statutory declaration.

It sounds as if the TOC (TPE or Northern?) has failed to make proper adjustments for your disability and the way that you were treated on the day in question. If you were unable to communicate properly with the inspector and also fully unaware of the situation on the trains caused by the disruption, you may have a reasonable excuse.

You'll need to attend court on Friday to make these arguments, ask for an adjournment to prepare your case and speak with the TOC about an out-of-court settlement.

This is a matter where you would benefit from specialist advice - perhaps the RNID?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I can't on this device, sorry. I have given all the information on the letters, apart from the court date.

So noted. Just to be clear, who has issued the correspondence you've received? Some court?

 

[Thornsandroses]

As you have

And I presume you didn't set up a redirection order with Royal Mail?

This - it says - is a discretionary option in the interests of justice.

It is the normal route in these circumstances, but as far as I can see you have the desired effect, only possibly with less notice.

It would also help if you could tell us what sort of ticket you had. I would guess an Advance fare, specific train only.

Edit: a conviction for travelling without a valid ticket - if you are unable to negotiate with the train company- is very unlikely to ruin your career, provided you don't try to hide it.

Thank you. I didn't set up redirection from my old address as I know the tenants and they have forwarded post.

As you have

And I presume you didn't set up a redirection order with Royal Mail?

This - it says - is a discretionary option in the interests of justice.

It is the normal route in these circumstances, but as far as I can see you have the desired effect, only possibly with less notice.

It would also help if you could tell us what sort of ticket you had. I would guess an Advance fare, specific train only.

Edit: a conviction for travelling without a valid ticket - if you are unable to negotiate with the train company- is very unlikely to ruin your career, provided you don't try to hide it.

I didn't set up redirection as I know the previous tenants and they say they have forwarded everything they've received.

So noted. Just to be clear, who has issued the correspondence you've received? Some court?

Yes, Manchester and Salford Magistrates Court

This is an unfortunate mess. Reopening the case can effectively reset the matter back to the first hearing, though doesn't guarantee a retrial that would be automatic with a statutory declaration.

It sounds as if the TOC (TPE or Northern?) has failed to make proper adjustments for your disability and the way that you were treated on the day in question. If you were unable to communicate properly with the inspector and also fully unaware of the situation on the trains caused by the disruption, you may have a reasonable excuse.

You'll need to attend court on Friday to make these arguments, ask for an adjournment to prepare your case and speak with the TOC about an out-of-court settlement.

This is a matter where you would benefit from specialist advice - perhaps the RNID?

Thank you - that is a good idea!

As you have

And I presume you didn't set up a redirection order with Royal Mail?

This - it says - is a discretionary option in the interests of justice.

It is the normal route in these circumstances, but as far as I can see you have the desired effect, only possibly with less notice.

It would also help if you could tell us what sort of ticket you had. I would guess an Advance fare, specific train only.

Edit: a conviction for travelling without a valid ticket - if you are unable to negotiate with the train company- is very unlikely to ruin your career, provided you don't try to hide it.

Sorry I missed your question about the ticket - I bought it in advance but it says it is an open return on the trainline app

 

[Llanigraham]

Thank you. I didn't set up redirection from my old address as I know the tenants and they have forwarded post.

I didn't set up redirection as I know the previous tenants and they say they have forwarded everything they've received.

Yet it appears they didn't pass on the documents about the original case against you. Have you checked with them about this?

I note you state you are deaf, so do you hold a Disabled Adult Rail Card?

 

[Thornsandroses]

Yet it appears they didn't pass on the documents about the original case against you. Have you checked with them about this?

I note you state you are deaf, so do you hold a Disabled Adult Rail Card?

Yes and they've forwarded other letters so it seems they haven't received anything.

I do have a Disabled Railcard and showed this to the inspector.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Sorry I missed your question about the ticket - I bought it in advance but it says it is an open return on the trainline app

Presume this "open" ticket was route "Northern only" unless Trainline have maybe issued split tickets and that you were stopped on either a TPE or TfW service between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport. Do you know which train company's taken you to court?

 

[Thornsandroses]

Presume this "open" ticket was route "Northern only" unless Trainline have maybe issued split tickets and that you were stopped on either a TPE or TfW service between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport. Do you know which train company's taken you to court?

Thank you for your reply. It doesn't say that on the ticket, but that makes sense.

It doesn't say on the letters which company has taken me to court. I've just called the court again to find out if there is any more information and they didn't know either!

 

[Fermiboson]

Do we know what the prosecution is actually for? RoRA 5(3)?

 

[Thornsandroses]

Do we know what the prosecution is actually for? RoRA 5(3)?

No. It doesn't say on the letters and the lady at the court only said 'failure to produce a ticket', but I did have my ticket and disability railcard ready

 

[Titfield]

This is quite a concern that you are due in court and it appears that no one - the court, the organisation taking you to court - can give you any details about it othehr than it is an application to reopen a case

Do you have a sunflower (hidden disabilities) lanyard you can wear to court?

Do you know what time you are due at court?

I think you need to get to the court well in advance of the time stated so that you can try and find someone there either the representative of the train operating company (if they are attending) or the clerk of the court or enquiries staff to try and assist you. I wouldn't want you to be sat on bench, not hear your name being called, and the court think you haven't showed up.

Have you been to the court before? How close to where you live is it? Have you thought of going there before Friday to try and find someone who can help you?

Have you told the lady you spoke to that you will definitely be attending? Have you got her name?

 

[Sultan]

Others have asked if you can upload copies of any correspondence (personal details redacted of course) but in the meantime, can you remember the exact date of travel? This would allow us to check what the 'mess' was at Manchester Piccadilly and how it might have affected your journey. Not being deaf myself, I don't know to what extent Train Operators communicate information except by on-board announcements and how easy / reasonable they are for someone such as yourself to take them on board (especially when there is a 'mess'). In South West Trains world, there are regular announcements about having the right ticket, tickets that are not valid, etc, but audibly this information reaches all parts of the carriage - I would doubt that the visual display / posters do the same and are easy to miss.

Unfortunately from what you've told us, this is a strict liability offence that cannot be challenged, but I would hope once you get the case re-opened / back to square 1, you would be able to mention mitigating circumstances, such as 'the mess' and that the train operator may not have followed reasonable processes for assisting a passenger with a disability. Are you registered partially deaf in case they challenge your version that the Revenue Protection Officer was rude and wouldn't take your answers?

I have a feeling that provided you can get this 'reset', and you start the appeals process, with the help of this forum the train company will not want to proceed with a prosecution, as it doesn't look good.

Good luck

 

[Thornsandroses]

This is quite a concern that you are due in court and it appears that no one - the court, the organisation taking you to court - can give you any details about it othehr than it is an application to reopen a case

Do you have a sunflower (hidden disabilities) lanyard you can wear to court?

Do you know what time you are due at court?

I think you need to get to the court well in advance of the time stated so that you can try and find someone there either the representative of the train operating company (if they are attending) or the clerk of the court or enquiries staff to try and assist you. I wouldn't want you to be sat on bench, not hear your name being called, and the court think you haven't showed up.

Have you been to the court before? How close to where you live is it? Have you thought of going there before Friday to try and find someone who can help you?

Have you told the lady you spoke to that you will definitely be attending? Have you got her name?

Thank you for your response.

This whole situation is crazy. I'm so confused as to why they can't give me more information. The lady from court that I spoke to on the phone today said that there may be more information on a different system that she can't access, so she has contacted that team and asked them to call me. She thinks it will take about 3 days. It took 2 hours to get that information and phone calls are strenuous for me. I got her name and she was as helpful as she could be but she was limited by her lack of access to the system.

She told me that I may be able to get a duty solicitor on the day but there's no guarantee. The case is at 9.30am and they open at 9 so I'll need to make sure I'm there on the dot.

The case is in another city and I can barely afford to go to the case, let alone twice.

A sunflower lanyard is a good idea so I will try to get one in time.

 

[Thornsandroses]

Others have asked if you can upload copies of any correspondence (personal details redacted of course) but in the meantime, can you remember the exact date of travel? This would allow us to check what the 'mess' was at Manchester Piccadilly and how it might have affected your journey. Not being deaf myself, I don't know to what extent Train Operators communicate information except by on-board announcements and how easy / reasonable they are for someone such as yourself to take them on board (especially when there is a 'mess'). In South West Trains world, there are regular announcements about having the right ticket, tickets that are not valid, etc, but audibly this information reaches all parts of the carriage - I would doubt that the visual display / posters do the same and are easy to miss.

Unfortunately from what you've told us, this is a strict liability offence that cannot be challenged, but I would hope once you get the case re-opened / back to square 1, you would be able to mention mitigating circumstances, such as 'the mess' and that the train operator may not have followed reasonable processes for assisting a passenger with a disability. Are you registered partially deaf in case they challenge your version that the Revenue Protection Officer was rude and wouldn't take your answers?

I have a feeling that provided you can get this 'reset', and you start the appeals process, with the help of this forum the train company will not want to proceed with a prosecution, as it doesn't look good.

Good luck

Thank you for your reply!

The journey was on 19th May. I tried to google a record of the trains for the day but couldn't find anything. Any help would be very appreciated.

I asked a train guard for help and was told to get on that train so surely that would be helpful in my case? I would think that would affect my liaibility given that I had no other way of finding the correct train in time (it was physically impossible to make it to the announcement boards with so many people everywhere so I couldn't see).

I am not registered as deaf as that is not a requirement - generally for access to things like a Railcard Pass etc proof of disability is required which is usually a GP letter or hearing aid booklet. I can bring medical proof so I will have that ready for the day. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

 

[Class15]

The charlwoodhouse website goes back a long while.

 

[Sultan]

Thank you for your reply!

The journey was on 19th May. I tried to google a record of the trains for the day but couldn't find anything. Any help would be very appreciated.

I asked a train guard for help and was told to get on that train so surely that would be helpful in my case? I would think that would affect my liaibility given that I had no other way of finding the correct train in time (it was physically impossible to make it to the announcement boards with so many people everywhere so I couldn't see).

I am not registered as deaf as that is not a requirement - generally for access to things like a Railcard Pass etc proof of disability is required which is usually a GP letter or hearing aid booklet. I can bring medical proof so I will have that ready for the day. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

Others will come back to you about 19th May. The challenging point will be you proving that the train guard gave you permission to travel on a train where the ticket was not valid. That could be quite difficult now and usually only a signed ticket (with the guards id ref) would be accepted unequivocally by the Train Operator - you have to understand that they get people 'trying it on' all the time with this excuse. But the mayhem of 19th and also that you can show 3rd party evidence (GP letter) that you could not hear (and understand) annoucements and that it was impractical to get to departure boards may be a reasonable mitigating circumstances (together) that would make them think twice about proceeding with a conviction in court.

But you won't know until you find out more and if you have to go to court first to make your points known (which may be wiser if it's not too much trouble) then best do that.

 

[Fermiboson]

Others will come back to you about 19th May. The challenging point will be you proving that the train guard gave you permission to travel on a train where the ticket was not valid. That could be quite difficult now and usually only a signed ticket (with the guards id ref) would be accepted unequivocally by the Train Operator - you have to understand that they get people 'trying it on' all the time with this excuse. But the mayhem of 19th and also that you can show 3rd party evidence (GP letter) that you could not hear (and understand) annoucements and that it was impractical to get to departure boards may be a reasonable mitigating circumstances (together) that would make them think twice about proceeding with a conviction in court.

But you won't know until you find out more and if you have to go to court first to make your points known (which may be wiser if it's not too much trouble) then best do that.

Using Wayback Machine on the NRE disruption pages gives this for 19th May 2023 (13:00):

Severe disruption b/t Lancaster and Preston

Route(s) affected​

Avanti West Coast between London Euston and Glasgow Central / Edinburgh

Northern between Manchetser Airport and Barrow-in-Furness / Winderemere, and also between Lancaster and Carlisle

TransPennine Express between Manchetser Airport and Glasgow Central / Edinburgh, and also between Liverpool Lime Street and Oxenholme Lake District

Description​

A fault on a train between Preston and Lancaster means all lines are blocked. As a result, trains may be cancelled or delayed by up to 60 minutes. This is expected until 16:00.

OP, where were you going to and from? Do you remember at what time?

EDIT: Forum thread from the day

Manchester Airport train cancellations

Does anyone know what’s up with the large number of train cancellations (>50% of those scheduled, seemingly) from Manchester Piccadilly to the airport? Have a flight tomorrow morning and am wondering if I should give myself extra time to get over there.

www.railforums.co.uk

EDIT 2 - Reread OP’s first post, sorry. So yes, I assume it’s one of the cancelled Man Picc to Airport services.

 

[Sultan]

"Sheffield to Manchester Airport via Manchester Piccadilly" (post #1).

According to tomorrow's route planner, both Northern and Trans-Pennine serve the airport from Piccadilly, both from platform 13, which (if I remember) is on the same place as many incoming TransPennine services from Sheffield (platform 14). However, Northern services from Sheffield appear to arrive at platform 4 which, to those unfamiliar with Manchester Piccadilly, is on a different level and some distance (and not obvious of the station is packed with people).

So can you remember which platform you arrived on? 4, 14 (or another)? It might not be a major factor, but could demonstrate how easy it is for someone with a disability to be on a train that their ticket didn't allow. Platform 13 gets dangerously over-crowded often, and trains stop every couple of minutes - so easy to be 'swept' onto the wrong train in those situations.

 

[Thornsandroses]

Using Wayback Machine on the NRE disruption pages gives this for 19th May 2023 (13:00):

Severe disruption b/t Lancaster and Preston

Route(s) affected​

Avanti West Coast between London Euston and Glasgow Central / Edinburgh

Northern between Manchetser Airport and Barrow-in-Furness / Winderemere, and also between Lancaster and Carlisle

TransPennine Express between Manchetser Airport and Glasgow Central / Edinburgh, and also between Liverpool Lime Street and Oxenholme Lake District

Description​

A fault on a train between Preston and Lancaster means all lines are blocked. As a result, trains may be cancelled or delayed by up to 60 minutes. This is expected until 16:00.

OP, where were you going to and from? Do you remember at what time?

EDIT: Forum thread from the day

Manchester Airport train cancellations

Does anyone know what’s up with the large number of train cancellations (>50% of those scheduled, seemingly) from Manchester Piccadilly to the airport? Have a flight tomorrow morning and am wondering if I should give myself extra time to get over there.

www.railforums.co.uk

Thank you! This is really helpful. I will print this out if it might be useful in court.

I was changing at Manchester Piccadilly, trying to catch the 14:18 to the airport. The train I jumped on left around that time with a difference of a few minutes.

 

[Fermiboson]

Relatedly which train did OP get on to mistakenly? Might help reconstruct the scenario.

I can’t find any archives of RTT, Traksy etc on the date concerned, and the archival of NRE journey planner obviously doesn’t allow query of the contemporary database. Does anyone know of any other method to access train records that day? Are industry internal records kept for that long?

EDIT: Also related, ticket acceptance arrangements on the day:

Northern Customer Advice:

You can use your ticket on the following services via any reasonable route:

• Avanti West Coast
• TransPennine Express

2x full size coaches will depart Preston at 13:00, calling all stations to Barrow-in-Furness. This will be operated by Coastal Coaches.

TransPennine Express Customer Advice:

You can use your ticket on the following services via any reasonable route:

• Avanti West Coast
• Northern

Does this consist of an advance ticket easement? Seems like it.

 

[mikeg]

The wording is that the OP failed to produce/deliver a ticket. Yet the OP did just this. The offence is therefore the incorrect one, now that this has gone to court if a statutory declaration were made, what would be the possiblity of the charge being altered?

If this is the only alleged offence, I do wonder how the three noddies that day managed to convict even on the evidence provided with no defence, given that the alleged offence centred around their being no ticket produced, rather than the validity of the ticket in question. See Burns v First Capital Connect.

All of this is assuming this is in relation to Railway Byelaw 18(2). However a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 s5(1) offence, the other offence in which it is a criminal matter not to deliver up one's ticket would be doomed to fail here imo, as the name and address was provided.

 

[Fermiboson]

The wording is that the OP failed to produce/deliver a ticket. Yet the OP did just this. The offence is therefore the incorrect one, now that this has gone to court if a statutory declaration were made, what would be the possiblity of the charge being altered?

I think there is now the possibly of the entire charge being invalid completely, as broad ticket acceptance appears to have been in place. Perhaps more experienced members could advise?

Sorry if my replies overlap with answers, am currently in the middle of Wales and reception is bad.

 

[mikeg]

I think there is now the possibly of the entire charge being invalid completely, as broad ticket acceptance appears to have been in place. Perhaps more experienced members could advise?

Sorry if my replies overlap with answers, am currently in the middle of Wales and reception is bad.

Yes, I think you're quite right and I'm shocked but not surprised that it got this far. TPE have form for ridiculous prosecutions as of late. I did post my post before yours appeared, that would explain the overlap.