Urgent - court case Friday 12th April

[Mcr Warrior]

I was changing at Manchester Piccadilly, trying to catch the 14:18 to the airport. The train I jumped on left around that time with a difference of a few minutes.

If current train times are broadly still the same as last May, then the 14:18 was probably a Northern service from Blackpool North to Manchester Airport, calling at various stations including Manchester Piccadilly (platform 13).

 

[Fermiboson]

Does anyone have the Northern and TPE December 2022 timetables? Wayback Machine annoyingly has the timetable list page but not the individual pdfs archived.

The actual service concerned and prosecuting company notwithstanding, it seems that there are now a few main avenues of defence -
1. The disruption was not adequately communicated to the passenger taking into account his disability, and disruption on the day was severe enough to cause unexpected and confusing change to the passenger’s journey;
2. The passenger had reason to believe that he had been given authority to travel by a member of staff (platform guard) to board the service;
3. RoRA 5(1) does not apply as details were given; RoRA 5(2) does not apply as the ticket was presented; RoRA 5(3) does not apply as the fare was paid.
4. Broad ticket acceptance was in place on the day which would have allowed travel, even on advances, on any train between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport on any operator;
5. The railway failed to appropiately take into account the passenger’s disability which affected his ability to mount a fair defence.

Does this sound right?

 

[Haywain]

It’s all very well suggesting that there may not be case to answer, but it’s the OP who is appearing before the court and without legal assistance they may still find it very difficult to challenge the charges.

 

[Fermiboson]

It’s all very well suggesting that there may not be case to answer, but it’s the OP who is appearing before the court and without legal assistance they may still find it very difficult to challenge the charges.

Surely all OP has to do is mention that he did show his ticket, that he was not ever given an opportunity to present his case or have his disability accommodated, and that ticket acceptance was in place at the day, and any reasonable magistrate will quickly figure out that something is up and they should not unquestionably believe the TOC’s story?

 

[Haywain]

Surely all OP has to do is mention that he did show his ticket, that he was not ever given an opportunity to present his case or have his disability accommodated, and that ticket acceptance was in place at the day, and any reasonable magistrate will quickly figure out that something is up and they should not unquestionably believe the TOC’s story?

A magistrate does not have legal knowledge, and to assume such an outcome is very dangerous.

 

[jfollows]

Does anyone have the Northern and TPE December 2022 timetables? Wayback Machine annoyingly has the timetable list page but not the individual pdfs archived.

Index of /nrt/dec2022

 

[Fermiboson]

Index of /nrt/dec2022

Thank you very much.

A magistrate does not have legal knowledge, and to assume such an outcome is very dangerous.

To put it another way, what does OP have to lose?
He’s already having the fine taken out of his bank account. If the railway is amenable to resetting the process then perhaps all this can be said to the TOC instead of the magistrate, but if they are not, I don’t see a scenario where the charge is somehow upgraded; if they are it may be time to write to the press and the local MP. On the contrary, would not a lacklustre defence and no attempt to contradict the TOC’s narrative be seen as an implicit admission of guilt?

 

[island]

A magistrate does not have legal knowledge, and to assume such an outcome is very dangerous.

But the magistrates are accompanied by a legal advisor who is legally qualified, and they can (and indeed must) take advice from them.

Nevertheless, this:

Surely all OP has to do is mention that he did show his ticket, that he was not ever given an opportunity to present his case or have his disability accommodated, and that ticket acceptance was in place at the day, and any reasonable magistrate will quickly figure out that something is up and they should not unquestionably believe the TOC’s story?

is unlikely to hold up in court.

The fact the OP was "not ever given an opportunity to present his case" is being remedied by the section 142 application to reopen the case.

Disabilities do not on their own constitute a defence to ticket infringements.

I cannot say whether the OP showed a ticket, or whether the actus reus of the crime of which he was convicted was failure to show a ticket. I need to know what offence that was to add further advice.

To put it another way, what does OP have to lose?

1. Time on the day at court
2. Increased costs order from the train company having to appear twice
3. (If the offence was recordable) it will stay on his criminal record for longer as the 12 month period will reset

 

[Fermiboson]

I cannot say whether the OP showed a ticket, or whether the actus reus of the crime of which he was convicted was failure to show a ticket. I need to know what offence that was to add further advice.

And on the same note, surely the court cannot expect to defend himself in one go without even knowing who is charging him and what he is being charged with?

1. Time on the day at court
2. Increased costs order from the train company having to appear twice
3. (If the offence was recordable) it will stay on his criminal record for longer as the 12 month period will reset

There’s already a hearing on the 12th that OP has to go to no matter what happens for 1. I doubt that everything will be settled there at once and the court will require an on the spot guilty/not guilty plea from OP, or that the TOC won’t even consider an out of court settlement; and if they don’t then 2 is already a given.

The other point, of course, is to figure out if OP is actually potentially guilty of any offence, regardless of which one the railway thinks he is guilty of. This will depend on which service OP actually got on and the platform guard etc. but I imagine it would significantly affect the optimal course of action, eg at least whether the letter to TOC asking to resume the out of court settlement procedures should be the “I’m sorry I won’t do it again” we usually advise, or focus on extenuating circumstances.

 

[island]

And on the same note, surely the court cannot expect to defend himself in one go without even knowing who is charging him and what he is being charged with?

This information will be on the paperwork the OP has received; however, they have indicated that their "device" renders them unable to upload a copy.

 

[Fermiboson]

This information will be on the paperwork the OP has received; however, they have indicated that their "device" renders them unable to upload a copy.

Ah, I see.

There should be a specific item or section quoted somewhere that OP can copy here, no?

 

[pedr]

This information will be on the paperwork the OP has received; however, they have indicated that their "device" renders them unable to upload a copy.

I'm not sure this is true. They've indicated that the paperwork says that the hearing is of an application to reopen a case in the interests of justice. It's entirely possible that the procedures for that assume that the applicant knows what the nature of that case was, and is ready to explain why the interests of justice require that the case is re-opened, so those details aren't included on communications from the court setting the hearing. It is not clear why the court didn't discuss the statutory declaration process with the OP (assuming that they didn't) as that would presumably have been more appropriate.

 

[island]

I'm not sure this is true. They've indicated that the paperwork says that the hearing is of an application to reopen a case in the interests of justice.

We need to see the document. It's as simple as that.

It is not clear why the court didn't discuss the statutory declaration process with the OP (assuming that they didn't) as that would presumably have been more appropriate.

One of several possibilities is that the time for making a statutory declaration had expired.

 

[mikeb42]

Re train running data on the day in question: There is some confusion in the timeline as the OP refers to a gap of 18 months between the incident and hearing more about it, but also to it happening last year. Other posters have referred to both 19/5/23 and 18/5/23, but the OP to 19/5/XX.

Assuming it's 19/5/23, the situation from 14:00 as recorded by charlwoodhouse is: (requires a bit of patience, presumably a slow server and a big database)

Passenger departures at Manchester Piccadilly (MNCRPIC MAN) from 14:00 Friday 19/05/23

Not general chaos at Piccadilly, but many services to the airport cancelled.

The 14:18 Northern appears to have run on time from Platform 13:

Service 28171012 (Y41529) 1Y66 12:56 Blackpool North to Manchester International Airport

Should 19/5/22 be relevant:

Passenger departures at Manchester Piccadilly (MNCRPIC MAN) from 14:00 Thursday 19/05/22

Cancellation of 1x TPE service to airport around time in question but with a delayed Northern service arriving at about the scheduled time of the cancelled TPE one.

Just my own reading of the data: veracity unknown but assumed ok. Believe at your own risk etc etc.

 

[Thornsandroses]

Using Wayback Machine on the NRE disruption pages gives this for 19th May 2023 (13:00):

Severe disruption b/t Lancaster and Preston

Route(s) affected​

Avanti West Coast between London Euston and Glasgow Central / Edinburgh

Northern between Manchetser Airport and Barrow-in-Furness / Winderemere, and also between Lancaster and Carlisle

TransPennine Express between Manchetser Airport and Glasgow Central / Edinburgh, and also between Liverpool Lime Street and Oxenholme Lake District

Description​

A fault on a train between Preston and Lancaster means all lines are blocked. As a result, trains may be cancelled or delayed by up to 60 minutes. This is expected until 16:00.

OP, where were you going to and from? Do you remember at what time?

EDIT: Forum thread from the day

Manchester Airport train cancellations

Does anyone know what’s up with the large number of train cancellations (>50% of those scheduled, seemingly) from Manchester Piccadilly to the airport? Have a flight tomorrow morning and am wondering if I should give myself extra time to get over there.

www.railforums.co.uk

EDIT 2 - Reread OP’s first post, sorry. So yes, I assume it’s one of the cancelled Man Picc to Airport services.

Thank you for this information! Do you have a link for the information about the routes that you found on Wayback Machine? I wasn't able to find it

 

[Thornsandroses]

Relatedly which train did OP get on to mistakenly? Might help reconstruct the scenario.

I can’t find any archives of RTT, Traksy etc on the date concerned, and the archival of NRE journey planner obviously doesn’t allow query of the contemporary database. Does anyone know of any other method to access train records that day? Are industry internal records kept for that long?

EDIT: Also related, ticket acceptance arrangements on the day:

Does this consist of an advance ticket easement? Seems like it.

Thank you for this information! Do you have a link for the advance ticket easement? I can not find it online anywhere

Re train running data on the day in question: There is some confusion in the timeline as the OP refers to a gap of 18 months between the incident and hearing more about it, but also to it happening last year. Other posters have referred to both 19/5/23 and 18/5/23, but the OP to 19/5/XX.

Assuming it's 19/5/23, the situation from 14:00 as recorded by charlwoodhouse is: (requires a bit of patience, presumably a slow server and a big database)

Passenger departures at Manchester Piccadilly (MNCRPIC MAN) from 14:00 Friday 19/05/23

Not general chaos at Piccadilly, but many services to the airport cancelled.

The 14:18 Northern appears to have run on time from Platform 13:

Service 28171012 (Y41529) 1Y66 12:56 Blackpool North to Manchester International Airport

Should 19/5/22 be relevant:

Passenger departures at Manchester Piccadilly (MNCRPIC MAN) from 14:00 Thursday 19/05/22

Cancellation of 1x TPE service to airport around time in question but with a delayed Northern service arriving at about the scheduled time of the cancelled TPE one.

Just my own reading of the data: veracity unknown but assumed ok. Believe at your own risk etc etc.

Thank you for looking into this. I can confirm it was 19.05.2023. Sorry if there was any confusing information on my part

Update:

Thank you everyone for taking the time to investigate and offer advice. It is very much appreciated. I'm sorry that I haven't replied to everything straight away - I have been taking care of family matters. Some of my comments needed to be approved by moderators as well. You have helped me to feel slightly less panicked about the situation and at least I am going into the situation better informed.

Today, someone from the court replied to my correspondence to say that they would offer help in the form of a hearing loop and an usher. They did not answer my question asking whether I could bring a friend to repeat questions for me etc, or whether I could access legal support. I had to send multiple replies before they would share any more information with me. They let me know that it is Northern Rail taking me to court. They then sent me some documents pertaining to a different case, with a different defendant, and did not reply to any messages after that.

I have printed everything out along with my tickets and proof of my disability so I'll take those along tomorrow. I also have proof of them sending correspondence to a previous address AFTER I gave them my most recent one.

It seems that the advance ticket easement would settle the matter but I cannot find proof of this online. If anyone knows how to get hold of this and provide a link, I would be very grateful.

I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for this information! Do you have a link for the advance ticket easement? I can not find it online anywhere


Thank you for looking into this. I can confirm it was 19.05.2023. Sorry if there was any confusing information on my part

Update:

Thank you everyone for taking the time to investigate and offer advice. It is very much appreciated. I'm sorry that I haven't replied to everything straight away - I have been taking care of family matters. Some of my comments needed to be approved by moderators as well. You have helped me to feel slightly less panicked about the situation and at least I am going into the situation better informed.

Today, someone from the court replied to my correspondence to say that they would offer help in the form of a hearing loop and an usher. They did not answer my question asking whether I could bring a friend to repeat questions for me etc, or whether I could access legal support. I had to send multiple replies before they would share any more information with me. They let me know that it is Northern Rail taking me to court. They then sent me some documents pertaining to a different case, with a different defendant, and did not reply to any messages after that.

I have printed everything out along with my tickets and proof of my disability so I'll take those along tomorrow. I also have proof of them sending correspondence to a previous address AFTER I gave them my most recent one.

It seems that the advance ticket easement would settle the matter but I cannot find proof of this online. If anyone knows how to get hold of this and provide a link, I would be very grateful.

I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

Would the advance ticket easement be listed on www. Brfares.com eg as one of the restriction codes? Ticketing experts here would prob know.

 

[megabusser]

Thank you for this information! Do you have a link for the information about the routes that you found on Wayback Machine? I wasn't able to find it

I think this is the link you’re after. Good luck.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230519133735/https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/lancaster-20230519/

 

[infobleep]

Thank you for this information! Do you have a link for the advance ticket easement? I can not find it online anywhere


Thank you for looking into this. I can confirm it was 19.05.2023. Sorry if there was any confusing information on my part

Update:

Thank you everyone for taking the time to investigate and offer advice. It is very much appreciated. I'm sorry that I haven't replied to everything straight away - I have been taking care of family matters. Some of my comments needed to be approved by moderators as well. You have helped me to feel slightly less panicked about the situation and at least I am going into the situation better informed.

Today, someone from the court replied to my correspondence to say that they would offer help in the form of a hearing loop and an usher. They did not answer my question asking whether I could bring a friend to repeat questions for me etc, or whether I could access legal support. I had to send multiple replies before they would share any more information with me. They let me know that it is Northern Rail taking me to court. They then sent me some documents about a different case, with a different defendant, and did not reply to any messages after that.

I have printed everything out along with my tickets and proof of my disability so I'll take those along tomorrow. I also have proof of them sending correspondence to a previous address AFTER I gave them my most recent one.

It seems that the advance ticket easement would settle the matter but I cannot find proof of this online. If anyone knows how to get hold of this and provide a link, I would be very grateful.

I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

I know it's late but I've only just been reading this.

I think it would be worth writing down things as evidence that can be presented to the court.

I once had to go to a tribunal some years ago, on a matter relating to benefits and Citizens Advise recommended I write everything down and present it as it will be helpful and help my case. It did and the tribunal overturned a previous ruling.

Once this is over, it may be worth contacting the court to say you were sent a different case as they have likely breached GDPR rules.

 

[Fermiboson]

Thank you for this information! Do you have a link for the advance ticket easement? I can not find it online anywhere


Thank you for looking into this. I can confirm it was 19.05.2023. Sorry if there was any confusing information on my part

Update:

Thank you everyone for taking the time to investigate and offer advice. It is very much appreciated. I'm sorry that I haven't replied to everything straight away - I have been taking care of family matters. Some of my comments needed to be approved by moderators as well. You have helped me to feel slightly less panicked about the situation and at least I am going into the situation better informed.

Today, someone from the court replied to my correspondence to say that they would offer help in the form of a hearing loop and an usher. They did not answer my question asking whether I could bring a friend to repeat questions for me etc, or whether I could access legal support. I had to send multiple replies before they would share any more information with me. They let me know that it is Northern Rail taking me to court. They then sent me some documents pertaining to a different case, with a different defendant, and did not reply to any messages after that.

I have printed everything out along with my tickets and proof of my disability so I'll take those along tomorrow. I also have proof of them sending correspondence to a previous address AFTER I gave them my most recent one.

It seems that the advance ticket easement would settle the matter but I cannot find proof of this online. If anyone knows how to get hold of this and provide a link, I would be very grateful.

I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

I should clarify that I am not 100% on whether what it says on the page constitutes an advance ticket easement. Often, even the TOC themselves will be inconsistent in their messaging of it. It also depends on whether the service you got on was actually to Manchester Airport.

It sounds like the court is very disorganised with regard to your case and that has "grounds for appeal" stamped all over it. (But if you do choose to pursue that you will have to engage a solicitor and seek actual legal advice - it will undoubtedly be preferable for all concerned to resolve things amicably with the TOC.)

As others have said, we do need to know exactly what charge you have been charged with, which should be somehwere in your documents, in order to offer more certain or concrete advice. Good luck in court tomorrow.

 

[Thornsandroses]

I think this is the link you’re after. Good luck.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230519133735/https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/lancaster-20230519/

Thank you so much!

 

[robbeech]

For the avoidance of doubt. The link above for the date in question mentions 2 things that when accepted together should be more than enough evidence to show the ticket should be deemed valid (regardless of what Northern wanted).

1. Route(s) affected : Transpennine Express between Manchester Airport and ……..,

2. TPE advice : you can use your ticket on the following services via any reasonable route
Avanti West Coast
Northern.

 

[Sultan]

I would expect any such 'Disruption' communication to implicitly state any conditions that are NOT allowed (such as advance tickets on other trains) as opposed to just saying 'ticket' and expecting the customer to know whether the advanced restrictions still apply or not. It wouldn't work anyway if the train you were supposed to be on was cancelled and it is unreasonable (imo) to expect all bar advance ticket holders to benefit from disruption accommodations, leaving advance holders having to catch their nominated train, which will likely be running late (and they may not even know that it is indeed their train).

If this disruption page covers your journey then it should be a 'slam-dunk' defence and the case be thrown out. You probably won't get it but may as well raise the issue of inconvenience and cost associated with having to attend court to defend yourself against something that should never have been brought to their attention in the first place.

 

[Thornsandroses]

Update:

I attended court on Friday. The waiting room was full of Northern customers, all of whom had tickets for their journeys. It was a difficult morning as there was only one duty solicitor, and we were told that if we wanted to see them, we would be waiting around all day with no guarantee, which meant that effectively no one had representation. Listening to people's stories throughout the morning, there seems to be a pattern of Northern ticket inspectors being aggressive in their attempts to ticket people. It makes me wonder whether they are being offered some incentive to raise fines. Some of these people were quite vulnerable. One man had a ticket on his phone and the officer refused to help him when all he needed to do was open it in the app for him. At least half of the defendants did not turn up and I have no doubt that Northern are raising a lot of money in fines by intimidating people who do not want to/cannot put up a fight.

I was brought to a room with a representative from Northern who asked if I wanted to settle things outside of court, or reopen the case. I showed him my evidence and he withdrew my case immediately. I asked for the complaints procedure and he insisted that the inspector reacted correctly. I disagree and will be following the complaints procedure. He would not comment on the cancellations, delays and so on.

I will also be complaining to the court for their handling of the case, the accidents with my address and GDPR violations. I will also need to claim back the amount of the fine I've paid so far, compensation for travelling etc.

Thanks again to everyone who offered help and advice.

 

[Pushpit]

Thanks @Thornsandroses for that quite extraordinary update. I do hope you will give Northern a hard time over this. I'm not sure what I find more startling in your account, but it seems to me to be a terrible abuse of power towards people who are not necessarily well placed to handle it.

 

[Fermiboson]

Thank you very much for your account.

Out of curiosity, which court is this?

 

[hornbeampark]

Thank you very much for your account.

Out of curiosity, which court is this?

OP has previously indicated Manchester & Salford Mags

 

[KirkstallOne]

I was brought to a room with a representative from Northern who asked if I wanted to settle things outside of court, or reopen the case. I showed him my evidence and he withdrew my case immediately. I asked for the complaints procedure and he insisted that the inspector reacted correctly. I disagree and will be following the complaints procedure. He would not comment on the cancellations, delays and so on.

This seems to be quite typical of Northern, if you turn up they will withdraw or settle quite happily. Seems a very shady way to go about prosecutions as it doesn’t seem like you presented any new evidence.

Please do follow up the complaint. Tristan Kirk at the Evening Standard may also be interested in your experience.

 

[philthetube]

I wonder if the R.N.I.D would be interested in this.

the Royal National Institute for Deaf People

 

[Papyrus]

Update:

I attended court on Friday. The waiting room was full of Northern customers, all of whom had tickets for their journeys. It was a difficult morning as there was only one duty solicitor, and we were told that if we wanted to see them, we would be waiting around all day with no guarantee, which meant that effectively no one had representation. Listening to people's stories throughout the morning, there seems to be a pattern of Northern ticket inspectors being aggressive in their attempts to ticket people. It makes me wonder whether they are being offered some incentive to raise fines. Some of these people were quite vulnerable. One man had a ticket on his phone and the officer refused to help him when all he needed to do was open it in the app for him. At least half of the defendants did not turn up and I have no doubt that Northern are raising a lot of money in fines by intimidating people who do not want to/cannot put up a fight.

I was brought to a room with a representative from Northern who asked if I wanted to settle things outside of court, or reopen the case. I showed him my evidence and he withdrew my case immediately. I asked for the complaints procedure and he insisted that the inspector reacted correctly. I disagree and will be following the complaints procedure. He would not comment on the cancellations, delays and so on.

I will also be complaining to the court for their handling of the case, the accidents with my address and GDPR violations. I will also need to claim back the amount of the fine I've paid so far, compensation for travelling etc.

Thanks again to everyone who offered help and advice.

What a disgraceful spectacle. A system of injustice waiting to be exposed.

I do hope that you will tip off the media to rock up at the courthouse next Friday and witness it.