[US] Behold! The new LIRR terminal way beneath Grand Central Terminal!

[Shinkansenfan]

The largest new railway station built in North America in the past 70+ years quietly opened for limited service this past Wednesday.

Branded as Grand Central Madison, this new station is located deep under the existing, iconic Grand Central Terminal of New York Central fame. It is now used by Metro-North Railroad.



The new LIRR terminal is the culmination of an almost 60 year effort to bring the Long Island Rail Road into the East Side of Manhattan and to serve the East Midtown business district where a substantial number of LIRR commuters work.

LIRR trains enter this new facility by using the bottom deck of the double deck 63 Street Tunnel with a pair of tracks. The F subway train uses the upper level track pair. There is no track connection between the LIRR and subway.

There are 8 LIRR tracks, served by four island platforms. Four of the tracks are located over a deep mezzanine and four below the same mezzanine. The graphics show the general route map, and LIRR station cross section in relation to Grand Central Terminal (which is incorrectly labeled as west of Vanderbilt Avenue (it is east)). The photos I took this past weekend depict the new facility.

Currently only a Grand Central to Jamaica shuttle service operates-- with two service patterns: 1) nonstop Grand Central to Jamaica, 2) an all stops local calling at Woodside, Kew Gardens and Forest Hills. During off peak (middays, weekends), two trains per hour per direction operate (one local, one express). This requires three trainsets to cover the schedule. During peak periods, shuttle service is hourly.

In a few weeks time substantially more trains will serve Grand Central. The LIRR is billing this as their largest service expansion ever, and the on board train staff I spoke with are thrilled as they wiil or have already moved up the seniority ladder quickly!

Running times between Jamaica and Grand Central are approximately same as Jamaica and Penn Station at around 20 minutes for the express and 22 minutes for the all stop local.

 

[zwk500]

The new LIRR terminal is the culmination of an almost 60 year effort to bring the Long Island Rail Road into the East Side of Manhattan and to serve the East Midtown business district where a substantial number of LIRR commuters work.

Makes British planning look quick! What was the budget like?

It looks very smart though.

 

[Shinkansenfan]

Makes British planning look quick! What was the budget like?

It looks very smart though.

Original concept (which used some of the lower level Metro-North tracks) in high level planning stage was priced at US $1 billion (US billion). The current concept was priced around US $3 billion. Over time it has increased to now near $12 billion, depending upon how certain project costs are tallied.

 

[Strathclyder]

That looks very smart & functional; definitely getting Elizabeth Line vibes in terms of the overall aesthetic. Does this free up capacity in the main Grand Central Terminal up above or is it the first time in it's long history that the LIRR has served this particular Manhattan terminal?

(am not as familar with New York's railway/metro networks as I really should be)

 

[Springs Branch]

Does this free up capacity in the main Grand Central Terminal up above or is it the first time in it's long history the LIRR has served this particular Manhattan terminal?

It won't have any effect on the existing Metro-North trains at Grand Central, but where it should certainly ease up capacity is at NY Penn station, where all LIRR services into Manhattan currently terminate.

I wonder how the NY Subway station at Grand Central will cope with the extra 'riders' the LIRR brings it? The Subway station was a pretty busy spot most of the day, even before eight new tracks worth of commuters was added. Maybe WFH will help out, at least in the short term?

On another positive note (I'm a gentleman of a certain age who needs to pay attention to these things), the map posted above suggests provision of a generous three separate sets of public 'bathrooms' on the new Madison Concourse (plus a lactation room). Top marks there, as my experience has been the US is usually very stingy in provision of public toilets - this being seen as rampant socialism in some eyes

 

[Strathclyder]

It won't have any effect on the existing Metro-North trains at Grand Central, but where it should certainly ease up capacity is at NY Penn station, where all LIRR services into Manhattan currently terminate.

Ah, I should've known that Penn Station would be a beneficiary here in terms of freed-up capacity. I really need to do a refresher on New York's railway/metro networks since I managed to fudge that detail lol

Cheers for the correction.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Looks impressive.

 

[stuu]

I wonder how the NY Subway station at Grand Central will cope with the extra 'riders' the LIRR brings it? The Subway station was a pretty busy spot most of the day, even before eight new tracks worth of commuters was added. Maybe WFH will help out, at least in the short term?

There's a lot of jobs very close by, and they upgraded the Times Square shuttle recently too.

One thing that does seem strange is building such an enormous underground terminal, rather than a loop back to Long Island or something. Or just working more efficiently

 

[Shinkansenfan]

I wonder how the NY Subway station at Grand Central will cope with the extra 'riders' the LIRR brings it? The Subway station was a pretty busy spot most of the day, even before eight new tracks worth of commuters was added

The developer of the adjacent new tall office tower named "One Vanderbilt" funded passenger circulation improvements to the existing Lexington Line station (4, 5, 6 trains) as well as to the Shuttle station.

For those headed to lower Manhattan, going into Penn Station and transferring to either the 1, 2, 3 or A, C, E trains may be faster because of the quicker access times to the subway.

...the map posted above suggests provision of a generous three separate sets of public 'bathrooms' on the new Madison Concourse (plus a lactation room).

Indeed there are clean toilets with plentiful fixtures (at least for the Men's room). During the first few days of opening, many New Yorkers were giddy with excitement of this new station and one female visitor gushed about how clean the toilets were.

Ah, I should've known that Penn Station would be a beneficiary here in terms of freed-up capacity. I really need to do a refresher on New York's railway/metro networks since I managed to fudge that detail lol

Some of that freed up Penn Station capacity will be used to host Metro-North's Penn Station access service. This will enable New Haven Line trains that currently terminate at Grand Central to also serve Penn Station, providing two destinations for those customers. Four new "infill" stations in The Bronx will offer new city zone access to Penn Station, and provide an alternative to either the existing express bus ride to Manhattan or a two mode ride involving a local bus to the subway. This is under construction.

One thing that does seem strange is building such an enormous underground terminal, rather than a loop back to Long Island or something.

Certain transportation advocates and civic groups wanted to use this opportunity to connect Grand Central to Penn Station, and with the new Hudson River tunnel proposed this would have been a good opportunity. One of the alternatives in the earlier Access to the Region's Core study proposed such a link.

 

[Taunton]

Always seemed excessive duplication, it's not THAT far between Penn and Grand Central stations, readily walkable and much overlap in catchment area. The same project would surely have served better extending the underused LIRR terminus at Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn through to Wall Street and the World Trade Center, where many commuters are actually heading. About the same tunnelling distance.

 

[Springs Branch]

One thing that does seem strange is building such an enormous underground terminal, rather than a loop back to Long Island or something. Or just working more efficiently

The MTA has published draft timetables for how the future LIRR services to Penn and Grand Central Terminal (GCT) will look beyond the initial 'soft launch' of the new platforms at GCT (which currently involves a self-contained shuttle between Jamaica and GCT)

Drafts of all LIRR routes are available at https://new.mta.info/agency/long-island-rail-road/lirr-to-grand-central/schedules

LIRR to Grand Central: Draft Schedules
About the draft schedules
We have created a draft systemwide schedule for when LIRR service to Grand Central begins. Below, you will find timetables that show service divided into 17 different segments. These are based on predominant service patterns.

The timetables show each train that stops at the stations covered; when they stop at Jamaica and their western terminals; and key intermediate station stops, such as Mineola. Not all intermediate stops are shown, especially at rush hour.

Trains will no longer have scheduled connections at Jamaica, so these schedules show train times only at stations they directly serve. Diesel trains on the Montauk, Oyster Bay, and Port Jefferson Branches will continue to show J (Jamaica) and/or T (Babylon/Huntington/Ronkonkoma) transfer opportunities. These do not originate or terminate at one of our primary western terminals, so the notes allow us to show how to travel to or from those terminals.

These timetables are drafts and are subject to change while we continue to refine the schedule. Final timetables will be available in the fall. When those are ready, they will be posted on our website and in the TrainTime app.

The Jamaica to Manhattan 'City Zone' summary is at https://new.mta.info/document/88496

Looks like Grand Central 'Deep Level' gets 21 arrivals in the am peak between 07:00 - 08:30 (a train every 3 - 5 minutes) and 23 departures towards Long Island between 17:00 and 18:30 (generally at three-minutes intervals).

The eight new platforms should be able to cope with this fairly easily without stressing LIRR's staff too badly - if all platforms are used and rotated equally, a train could have up to an easy 20 minutes turnaround in its platform, even in the middle of the peak. It's a similar frequency to what Fenchurch Street manages to achieve with four terminal platforms, and less than Charing Cross manages with six platforms (but more approach tracks).

 

[stuu]

The MTA has published draft timetables for how the future LIRR services to Penn and Grand Central Terminal (GCT) will look beyond the initial 'soft launch' of the new platforms at GCT (which currently involves a self-contained shuttle between Jamaica and GCT)

Drafts of all LIRR routes are available at https://new.mta.info/agency/long-island-rail-road/lirr-to-grand-central/schedules

The Jamaica to Manhattan 'City Zone' summary is at https://new.mta.info/document/88496

Looks like Grand Central 'Deep Level' gets 21 arrivals in the am peak between 07:00 - 08:30 (a train every 3 - 5 minutes) and 23 departures towards Long Island between 17:00 and 18:30 (generally at three-minutes intervals).

The eight new platforms should be able to cope with this fairly easily without stressing LIRR's staff too badly - if all platforms are used and rotated equally, a train could have up to an easy 20 minutes turnaround in its platform, even in the middle of the peak. It's a similar frequency to what Fenchurch Street manages to achieve with four terminal platforms, and less than Charing Cross manages with six platforms (but more approach tracks).

Thanks for sharing. I agree it's not overly taxing turnaround times. But it's a huge increase in service from Long Island to Manhattan, although I am still a bit baffled as why they don't make the whole thing clockface off peak.

 

[Richard Bishop]

Always seemed excessive duplication, it's not THAT far between Penn and Grand Central stations, readily walkable and much overlap in catchment area. The same project would surely have served better extending the underused LIRR terminus at Atlantic Terminal in Brooklyn through to Wall Street and the World Trade Center, where many commuters are actually heading. About the same tunnelling distance.

Distance about a mile and a twenty minute walk according to google maps which I would guess is about right having walked it myself several times.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

I believe Network Rail Consulting played a part in this.

 

[Iskra]

Very much needed, the old Terminal is grim.

 

[Austriantrain]

Very much needed, the old Terminal is grim.

Which one do you mean?

 

[nw1]

Interesting that the draft schedule still has a vast increase in peak services compared to off peak - which contrasts sharply with current UK practice. I guess it's down to New York being significantly larger than any UK city.

A long peak too, from 4-8pm as opposed to the 5-6.30pm, or if you're lucky 7pm, peak period in the UK.

Which one do you mean?

Not Grand Central, I guess. I visited in 2004 (didn't actually travel, but visited the station) and I wouldn't call it grim!

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting that the draft schedule still has a vast increase in peak services compared to off peak - which contrasts sharply with current UK practice. I guess it's down to New York being significantly larger than any UK city.

A long peak too, from 4-8pm as opposed to the 5-6.30pm, or if you're lucky 7pm, peak period in the UK.

Regional heavy rail in the US is heavily biased towards traditional 9-to-5 commuting, to the extent that the sector is known as "commuter rail". Many smaller operations have literally no counter-peak or off-peak service whatsoever. New York isn't in that category but the mindset prevails to some extent.

A quick search gives the population of New York City as 8-odd million, similar to greater London. If you got a figure of 20 million, that's for the whole state, much of which is way outside commuting distance. New York also has commuter suburbs outside the city or even the state, but so does London.

 

[Taunton]

Interesting that the draft schedule still has a vast increase in peak services compared to off peak - which contrasts sharply with current UK practice. I guess it's down to New York being significantly larger than any UK city.

A long peak too, from 4-8pm as opposed to the 5-6.30pm, or if you're lucky 7pm, peak period in the UK.

North American suburban "commuter" services have always been very different to UK practice, and much more concentrated in the peak. A good proportion of the stock can do just one return trip a day, laying over midday in the city and overnight at the far end. A significant number of lesser operations only operate in the peak, in the direction of the flow. The market is much more based around commuters working standard office hours than in Britain. The high points of the peaks are somewhat earlier than the UK, many US office staff work 0800-1630 hours. The loads are even more concentrated than the service, with full trains in the peak and just a handful on board in between. The same is true of the lengthy commuter bus operations, over comparable distances into the major cities. Just a different tradition.

I recall an interesting issue there, it was a commuter bus service, into Washington DC, over an hour duration, there were I think five trips into the city arriving 0730-0900, and returning 1630-1800. Five vehicles needed. But after a while it was found that a number who might have used the service did not do so because occasionally they were detained at work until after 1800, and there was no other way home. So it was arranged that the first outward bus at 1630 would then return to the city to operate an additional late 1900 departure. The break-even load for the day's round trip was about 25, the buses seated 50, and the new late evening service typically carried about 12. However, they were a different 12 each day and overall about another 40 or so round trip passengers were generated. Even people who never used it said they now used the service because they were more assured of getting home. No extra cost in the morning, one trip in the evening. We said it more than covered its extra costs.

However, the beancounters just could not get their heads around this. The 1900 only carries 12, therefore it is unprofitable. Umpteen descriptions of the overall effect just fell on deaf ears. It was all subsidised by the regional transit operation, who said "Cut the trip". Explained the logic. "No, they can come home earlier". "No evidence the passengers will be lost". "12 passengers is not enough - cut it". We defended it for a while, I was no longer involved, and of course it was cut. I see they are down to just two peak round trips overall nowadays.

A quick search gives the population of New York City as 8-odd million, similar to greater London. If you got a figure of 20 million, that's for the whole state, much of which is way outside commuting distance. New York also has commuter suburbs outside the city or even the state, but so does London.

Not the "official" city", which is the 8 million, but the "Metropolitan area", is an official US classification that counts the overall commuter area. This includes going into adjacent States, a bit of Connecticut, and a significant amount of New Jersey, which comes to within a mile of downtown Manhattan, across the Hudson river, both of which are connected by commuter rail, the latter substantially.

 

[edwin_m]

In a lot or cases the cost of adding off-peak service would be marginal, particularly for somewhere like the LIRR which owns its own infrastructure. It's probably a bit more tricky for operators that use the tracks of the freight roads, who may want them for their own traffic outside peak times and may charge per train rather than the UK concept of a fixed charge for the infrastructure and a variable charge for each train run.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Very much needed, the old Terminal is grim.

I assume he meant Penn Station which is indeed grim - essentially the basement of Madison Square Gardens, a basketball and hockey arena. Although it now has the Moynihan Train Hall for Amtrak travelers which is a huge improvement.

 

[Shinkansenfan]

Full LIRR service for Grand Central starts 27 February 2023. This will replace the interim Grand Central Direct shuttle service.

New timetables for all branches: https://new.mta.info/agency/long-island-rail-road/timetables

Scroll down past other timetables to those with 27 February start date.

—

With this timetable change, there are several operational changes including the loss of the interesting 3 way timed connections on adjacent tracks at Jamaica where trains meet and passengers can walk through the train on the middle track (doors open on both side of car) to access the third train. This timed shortcut is customer friendly.

Also during peak periods customers destined to or from Brooklyn will mostly lose through service from points east of Jamaica. Instead, their train will be converted to a Jamaica to Atlantic Terminal shuttle with the concurrent severing of the current timed connections on adjacent tracks.

Instead, they will have to change platforms by going up and over to one of two overhead mezzanines where their westbound to Brooklyn will depart from the southern most platform, while their westbound train from points east of Jamaica arrives on the northern platforms.

I’ve not had a chance to see if any connections to/from Brooklyn are timed to other trains branches.