Use of private cars for home deliveries

[43066]

They told me that they don't insure people with that occupation, so it doesn't matter what mode of transport you use. Similarly, they don't insure sportspeople or TV presenters (for example).

Fair enough.

On the subject, I had a Deliveroo delivery last night from someone who appeared on the app to be riding a very fast moving pushbike, and duly turned up in a car.

 

[edwin_m]

Fair enough.

On the subject, I had a Deliveroo delivery last night from someone who appeared on the app to be riding a very fast moving pushbike, and duly turned up in a car.

There are also e-bikes that have been "chipped" to remove the feature that cuts off power when they reach a maximum speed (15mph I think).

 

[Llanigraham]

How would your insurance company know that you were using the car for commercial purposes though? For example, if I had a boot full of Amazon parcels that I was delivering and I crashed into someone, my insurance company aren't going to know that are they?

If the incident is severe enough for the car to be removed by the insurance or Police recovery company it will be held in a secure compound and you will have a problem removing anything from it until an Insurance assessor has seen it, and they will find the parcels.

In a more general reply; I know that South Wales Police and Dyfed Powys Police regularly stop and check delivery drivers, especially in estate cars, to check their insurances, and many have found their vehicles impounded and the parcels dumped on the side of the road and the drivers having to walk home.

 

[Trainman40083]

If the Police are called to/happen across the crash, you’d be prosecuted for no insurance (as the purpose of your journey would be outwith your policy).

The other party could also make comment along the lines of “they’re an Amazon driver…” whilst discussing with their insurers, etc.

So many ways to be tripped up. Ultimately it’s on you to make sure you’re fully covered.

Exactly. Even if the accident was the fault of the other party, they might well mention the other driver was delivering parcels. In the same way as they might mention a driver was using a hand held mobile/device.

 

[bleeder4]

Exactly. Even if the accident was the fault of the other party, they might well mention the other driver was delivering parcels. In the same way as they might mention a driver was using a hand held mobile/device.

But if the parcels were all in the boot they wouldn't know would they?

 

[Trainman40083]

But if the parcels were all in the boot they wouldn't know would they?

Very rare I see such a vehicle with all the parcels in the book... More stacked up inside the car and all over the front passenger seat, for easy access.

 

[jon0844]

Very rare I see such a vehicle with all the parcels in the book... More stacked up inside the car and all over the front passenger seat, for easy access.

Not only that, but when they park up they leave the engine running and often the driver door open. Given the risk of losing the car AND the packages AND not having insurance pay out, I must say I think it's incredibly brave for the driver that is already getting paid peanuts per drop.

 

[trainmania100]

Uber eats checks drivers for the right insurance documents. While theres nothing to stop a courier registering as a cyclist and driving, they do check on this and take action. I'm registered as a cyclist, I don't do many deliveries, but occasionally I have used the car and they send you a message if they think you're driving based on delivery time.

Re insurance there are pay as you deliver companies, one begins with Z I can't remember it's name. It's not difficult to get courier insurance either as a comprehensive policy or just basic

 

[Trainman40083]

Not only that, but when they park up they leave the engine running and often the driver door open. Given the risk of losing the car AND the packages AND not having insurance pay out, I must say I think it's incredibly brave for the driver that is already getting paid peanuts per drop.

Yes, especially when the parcels are worth more than their car. A van came to make a delivery where I am just before Christmas..Went off at speed, both rear doors wide open. Another told me what hours he worked, and how much they got per delivery (peanuts). But as people know. You leave your vehicle with the engine running (even when deicing), if it is stolen, the insurance has been invalidated.

 

[bleeder4]

Yes, especially when the parcels are worth more than their car. A van came to make a delivery where I am just before Christmas..Went off at speed, both rear doors wide open. Another told me what hours he worked, and how much they got per delivery (peanuts). But as people know. You leave your vehicle with the engine running (even when deicing), if it is stolen, the insurance has been invalidated.

Yes, when I did a few months doing Amazon deliveries during Covid I got paid £1.95 for each delivery, but that got reduced if a parcel was delivered outside the time window Amazon had agreed with the customer. So in a standard run of 40 parcels, which was several hours work, I'd be looking at about 80 quid. That excludes petrol costs, I had to pay for that myself.

It was enough of an income to get through furlough for a few months, but it's definitely not enough for a full-time job. I would suspect that, as it was during Covid, the majority of drivers are still doing it as a second job to top up their salary from their main job.

 

[Trainman40083]

Yes, when I did a few months doing Amazon deliveries during Covid I got paid £1.95 for each delivery, but that got reduced if a parcel was delivered outside the time window Amazon had agreed with the customer. So in a standard run of 40 parcels, which was several hours work, I'd be looking at about 80 quid. That excludes petrol costs, I had to pay for that myself.

It was enough of an income to get through furlough for a few months, but it's definitely not enough for a full-time job. I would suspect that, as it was during Covid, the majority of drivers are still doing it as a second job to top up their salary from their main job.

Were you using your own vehicle,and as such those other running costs too. I have actually heard of delivery agents getting less. You can see why parcels get left on doorsteps...well maybe ring the doorbell and drive off, before anyone appears. I guess Amazon can't predict traffic levels, road works etc....

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m not sure this is right - clearly you can’t use the insured car for commercial purposes under the policy terms, but how and why would a car insurance company “ban” you from doing parcel delivery on a bike? It’s nothing to do with them as they only insure risks in relation to the insured vehicle.

Harsh, but they do:

Image shows Aviva stating you are not eligible to purchase their car insurance if you have the occupation of: professional entertainer, footballer, boxer, gambler, chauffeur, taxi driver, driving instructor, or parcel/takeaway/fast food delivery.

Occupation does have an effect on car insurance and, for people whose occupation may fit more than one category, it can be worth playing around with wording to get a better quote. In fairness to Aviva, other than the specified prohibited occupations they do not base their price on occupation.

 

[43066]

Harsh, but they do:
View attachment 172048
Image shows Aviva stating you are not eligible to purchase their car insurance if you have the occupation of: professional entertainer, footballer, boxer, gambler, chauffeur, taxi driver, driving instructor, or parcel/takeaway/fast food delivery.

Occupation does have an effect on car insurance and, for people whose occupation may fit more than one category, it can be worth playing around with wording to get a better quote. In fairness to Aviva, other than the specified prohibited occupations they do not base their price on occupation.

Thanks, that’s interesting (and @johncrossley I stand corrected!). I guess on one level it makes sense as someone who does as of those jobs is no doubt statistically exponentially more likely to use their (private) car for it, and therefore incur a third party liability risk, even if their own damage wouldn’t be covered.

Not sure why footballers, boxers or gamblers should be so much of a concern, though?! But there we have it.

 

[Gloster]

Indeed the wording does matter. When I put down journalist (a slightly optimistic description) the premiums were horrible. Changing it to Freelance writer, which was probably more accurate, produced a much lower quote.

 

[43066]

Indeed the wording does matter. When I put down journalist (a slightly optimistic description) the premiums were horrible. Changing it to Freelance writer, which was probably more accurate, produced a much lower quote.

“Train driver” hasn’t ever seemed to make much of a difference, but intuitively I’d imagine it would be one of the “safer” categories of job. Maybe they’re worried we will forget where we are, and drive at 125mph on the motorway .

Joking aside, I have found myself reaching for the DRA in the car, when stopped at red traffic lights. Definitely a sign of spending too much time at work!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not sure why footballers, boxers or gamblers should be so much of a concern, though?! But there we have it.

Footballers likely to have expensive fast cars at quite a young age (and at least if it's anything to by the reports I've seen quite frequently - have a habit of driving them dangerously).

Boxers maybe the risk of them driving with an unknown brain injury after a fight.

And gamblers possibly same as footballers, but also maybe the risk of insurance fraud if they lose a lot of money they need to make back?

Appreciate all are "what ifs" but insurance is based on risk profiles for specific groups of people.

 

[ChrisC]

There are also e-bikes that have been "chipped" to remove the feature that cuts off power when they reach a maximum speed (15mph I think).

Not only “chipped” to remove the cut off power when they reach 15mph, but often totally self propelled with an illegal powerful electric motor which doesn’t require any pedalling.

 

[Llanigraham]

“Train driver” hasn’t ever seemed to make much of a difference, but intuitively I’d imagine it would be one of the “safer” categories of job. Maybe they’re worried we will forget where we are, and drive at 125mph on the motorway .

Joking aside, I have found myself reaching for the DRA in the car, when stopped at red traffic lights. Definitely a sign of spending too much time at work!

You're lucky. When I joined the railway and changed my employment to "signalman/railway worker" my policy increased slightly. The reason given was I would likely to be driving at odd times of day and possibly tired. Colleagues have confirmed similar.

 

[Meerkat]

Not sure why footballers, boxers or gamblers should be so much of a concern, though?!

Footballers are likely to be driving other footballers around, and it would only take minor injuries for there to be significant loss of income claims. Plus footballers do have a rep for being young and errr adventurous shall we say!
Speaking to a player after he moved to a semi-pro club he was pretty happy with the significant car insurance drop

 

[MP33]

I had a job with an organisation associated with the media, although not in my area. Insurance was higher, for the reason that you may have a high worth individual as a passenger and third party claims. A Gambler, may be the same as a Journalist rushing around to get the story first. That a full-time Gambler, would be rushing to a racecourse or betting shop to get a bet on in time.

 

[edwin_m]

I had a job with an organisation associated with the media, although not in my area. Insurance was higher, for the reason that you may have a high worth individual as a passenger and third party claims. A Gambler, may be the same as a Journalist rushing around to get the story first. That a full-time Gambler, would be rushing to a racecourse or betting shop to get a bet on in time.

Plus gamblers may have a tendency to risk-taking behaviour.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Given the blatant exploitation by these companies of the 'they're subcontractors, not employees' route, it might not be entirely unreasonable for the government to turn around and point out that they clearly are employees, and that the liability for ensuring the vehicle used is appropriately insured (as well as taxed, maintained, and the driver adequately licenced) falls upon the employer.

This doesn't entirely solve the problem, as the delivery driver could still turn up in a vehicle other than that agreed with the company. The fix here would require a fourth party (i.e. the restaurant) to validate the vehicle used, but this would probably add undue complication.

The difficulty my wife and I have with 'business' insurance is that we only have one car. Most insurers only cover business use for the policy holder, and not for other named drivers.

Occupation does have an effect on car insurance and, for people whose occupation may fit more than one category, it can be worth playing around with wording to get a better quote. In fairness to Aviva, other than the specified prohibited occupations they do not base their price on occupation.

I have never found an insurer who recognises the existence of my profession. Not all of them even recognise my industry.

A colleague insisted on getting their profession listed 'correctly' when applying for life insurance once, then somehow managed to convince the insurance assessor that it fell into the same risk category as saturation divers and test pilots. This did not do their premiums any favours.

You're lucky. When I joined the railway and changed my employment to "signalman/railway worker" my policy increased slightly. The reason given was I would likely to be driving at odd times of day and possibly tired. Colleagues have confirmed similar.

I don't believe they even have to justify why your profession impacts your premiums, as seen by the fact that there's always been a high level of claims among people with south-facing garages (or some such nonsense) when it's time to renew your policy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't believe they even have to justify why your profession impacts your premiums, as seen by the fact that there's always been a high level of claims among people with south-facing garages (or some such nonsense) when it's time to renew your policy.

Indeed. It's purely statistical on previous claims, it isn't based on anyone justifying it.

 

[jon0844]

This doesn't entirely solve the problem, as the delivery driver could still turn up in a vehicle other than that agreed with the company. The fix here would require a fourth party (i.e. the restaurant) to validate the vehicle used, but this would probably add undue complication.

While a lot of cars aim to park directly outside the place they're picking up or dropping off too, even if that means parking illegally or dangerously, there will be locations where staff can't see where the car is - nor will they have the time.

My local McDonald's has enough fun enforcing the rule that all food must be put in a proper delivery bag/box, as some turn up with carrier bags or nothing at all. Sadly, on occasion, they'll let the driver take the food 'loose' which definitely makes me think they're sub-sub contractors and goodness knows what the state of the food/drink will be if and when it gets to its destination.

There definitely needs to be some regulation, but good luck managing that. If Labour attempted to do such things, people would moan when Deliveroo/Uber Eats/Just-Eat all worked together to say how much it will add to the cost of the food, and how it will make poor people unable to order in etc. They'd lobby hard, and the right-wing media would fully support them too (even if they're just itching to attack the often foreign drivers for everything else!).

 

[Indigo Soup]

While a lot of cars aim to park directly outside the place they're picking up or dropping off too, even if that means parking illegally or dangerously, there will be locations where staff can't see where the car is - nor will they have the time.

Absolutely - it's totally unworkable. The only way any meaningful enforcement of subcontracted delivery drivers is possible is with a lot more traffic police to deal with things like inadequate insurance, illegal parking, unsafe driving, unregistered motorbikes (as discussed in another thread!) and so forth.

Interestingly enough, traffic policing is also apparently the first target for police cuts, as it's unpopular with the public and (IIRC) relatively expensive. The delivery contractors would be very happy to push all the liability onto their subcontractors of course, just as they already have done with low rates of pay.

Sadly, on occasion, they'll let the driver take the food 'loose' which definitely makes me think they're sub-sub contractors and goodness knows what the state of the food/drink will be if and when it gets to its destination.

There are occasional reports of the food never reaching its destination, the driver (to whatever degree subcontracted) having helped themselves to part or all of an order.

 

[AndrewE]

No you claim against the last insurer the guilty driver had. If not then the ABI pay up. They then claim the money back from the uninsured driver.

except that we pay it through a surcharge on our policies and the uninsured driver is almost certainly a "man of straw."

 

[jon0844]

Absolutely - it's totally unworkable. The only way any meaningful enforcement of subcontracted delivery drivers is possible is with a lot more traffic police to deal with things like inadequate insurance, illegal parking, unsafe driving, unregistered motorbikes (as discussed in another thread!) and so forth.

Interestingly enough, traffic policing is also apparently the first target for police cuts, as it's unpopular with the public and (IIRC) relatively expensive. The delivery contractors would be very happy to push all the liability onto their subcontractors of course, just as they already have done with low rates of pay.

There are occasional reports of the food never reaching its destination, the driver (to whatever degree subcontracted) having helped themselves to part or all of an order.

There are often video clips of deliveries that have someone ring the doorbell and then go away with the food, and in the USA where tipping is considered essential there's often a lot of people supporting the concept of refusing to deliver or damaging/contaminating the food as punishment for not tipping.

I have to say that I don't tip on deliveries here because

a) the food menu is often 20-30% more expensive to cover the cost to the restaurant for delivering
b) there's a service charge add on
c) there's a bag charge (which you can't avoid unless they're going to carry the food in their hands)
d) there's a delivery fee of around £3-5 already

But I don't expect my food to be thrown around or not delivered because I didn't add a tip.

It doesn't surprise me that people want traffic police to be cut (which has been happening for years anyway, ever since traffic police that can obviously do normal policing too, were increasingly used for normal policing and spent less and less time patrolling and dealing with traffic related crime) as I'm sure everyone wants to be able to nudge over the speed limit, make that short trip home after having maybe one too many and not be penalised because their car failed the MOT or they couldn't afford insurance this month. If caught, they're always the ones demanding more police deal with burglaries, murder and rape cases as if these are anywhere near as common as traffic offences.

 

[DM352]

We have many gig economy drivers in cars here in Calgary as people move here but there are not enough good quality jobs to go around. Have seen parking lots very busy since covid where they are taking up spaces awaiting a delivery to accept, the same goes with some supermarkets using instacart.

An issue we have read about is drivers use the different app platforms so could net several deliveries at a similar time but encourages them also to speed so food is not cold. Have driven back myself from fast food places as choose to pickup to find someone a few inches from my bumper who left after me.

Drivers should have commercial insurance but like others said they are not insured if in a collision if they don't have this and the other party sees delivery bags.

Canada is in a weird spot as we have provincial minimum wage $15 unlike most the US but there is still tipping so a $5 donut and coffee could stretch to $15-20 with fees, tax and tip.

 

[Meerkat]

Drivers should have commercial insurance but like others said they are not insured if in a collision if they don't have this and the other party sees delivery bags.

If only the other party sees them that’s probably ok - it would be unwise to help prove the person that hit you was uninsured!

 

[Indigo Soup]

If only the other party sees them that’s probably ok - it would be unwise to help prove the person that hit you was uninsured!

That, boys and girls, is what we call a 'perverse incentive'.