Used my husbands gold card

[gpus28]

Hello
Today I used my husbands annual season ticket to travel and the electronic strip went so I couldn’t get through the barrier and the Southeastern ticket officer took my card. He asked a lot of question about the card and in a blind panic I didn’t answer truthfully to his questions. He confiscated the card from me and took my details and let me pay for a new ticket and sent me on my way. He said I would be contacted by Southeastern. I’m writing to ask what the likely penalty will be as 1) it was not my ticket 2) I did not give truthful answers about it not being my ticket. Help appreciated

 

[Titfield]

This is quite a challenging pair of questions to answer.

1) South Eastern may suspect that you have done this before. Was this the first time you have used the gold card? If South Eastern research the cards history will they detect or be able to detect inconsistencies in the journey pattern that may give rise to suspicion that the card has been used by you on multiple occasions?
2) What untruthful answers did you give - was it just about it being your card?
3) Do South Eastern have your correct details? (and can also differentiate between you and your husband).

EDIT
4) Without giving details which could identify you, has the gold card got long to run before it expires?

 

[gpus28]

Thanks for your reply. They have my correct details. No he uses it every day but it’s a paper card. He was off today and I used it, I have historically bought my own cards.
The untruthful answers were about me picking his card up instead of mine as I don’t have one at all. I’m not entirely sure why I didn’t just say took his but I lied about having my own one. The ticket person took no story and no other details other than my name and address. The card has quite a lot of months left on it.

 

[Titfield]

Thanks for your reply. They have my correct details. No he uses it every day but it’s a paper card. He was off today and I used it, I have historically bought my own cards.
The untruthful answers were about me picking his card up instead of mine as I don’t have one at all. I’m not entirely sure why I didn’t just say took his but I lied about having my own one. The ticket person took no story and no other details other than my name and address. The card has quite a lot of months left on it.

Thank you. This presents something of a dilemma in that South Eastern have no proof of repeated misuse - they have only proof of an attempted misuse on the day. That potential misuse was prevented and you did pay the fare on the day (I presume on the outward journey).

Doubtless they will write to you eventually to ask for your version of events but of course in the meantime your husband does not have it to use and thus will have to purchase tickets for his travel to / from work.

I think this is one of the few cases where your husband has to take the initiative and contact South Eastern and ask for its return. In explaining the situation to South Eastern either he will have to ask for an email address so you may email them to explain your version of events / apologise / be contrite / confirm you wont do it again OR South Eastern will state that the card will only be returned when the matter has been resolved. They may go on some form of fishing expedition but suspicion of wrong doing is obviously very far from being able to prove wrong doing. If they say that you have to wait for the letter then arguably that could be imposing a disproportionate sanction on someone who has not committed any offence or wrong doing and I think your husband should mention that if that is there response.

The fact that you paid for a new ticket means they are not actually out of pocket. I suppose they could ask for some form of administrative settlement for the return of the card but I cant quite see how they can do that - I am not familiar with the terms and conditions of annual season tickets and what sanction they could impose in these circumstances.

 

[Elecman]

The ticket belongs to the train company and they could choose not to return it al all

 

[Titfield]

The ticket belongs to the train company and they could choose not to return it al all

Well yes but this surely would be extremely harsh and disproportionate to the attempted misuse of the card by someone other than the person it was issued to. It is punishing the wrong person.

 

[fandroid]

Could the husband then cancel it, get a part refund and then buy another?

 

[AdamWW]

The ticket belongs to the train company and they could choose not to return it al all

I think the wording about tickets being the property of the railway has been removed from the conditions of carriage.

Which doesn't necessarily mean they don't have the right to withdraw a ticket used incorrectly.

 

[furlong]

The ticket belongs to the train company and they could choose not to return it al all

Citations? Choosing not to return it to the husband might look like theft unless they can prove (to a high standard) that the HUSBAND breached its terms, for example by transferring it to his wife in breach of 5.1 as opposed to her borrowing it without his knowledge.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I think the wording about tickets being the property of the railway has been removed from the conditions of carriage.

Which doesn't necessarily mean they don't have the right to withdraw a ticket used incorrectly.

Condition 18.2 gives railway staff the right to withdraw an invalid ticket if it is a physical ticket (ie not held on a passenger’s electronic device or payment card).

 

[Hadders]

Could the husband then cancel it, get a part refund and then buy another?

Only by handing in the ticket, which they don't have.

 

[Danieldaniel]

Condition 18.2 gives railway staff the right to withdraw an invalid ticket if it is a physical ticket (ie not held on a passenger’s electronic device or payment card).

Says that they must provide a receipt. How is that even managed. Do they just write something on a piece of paper or is there a setting on the machines for this

 

[AlterEgo]

Says that they must provide a receipt. How is that even managed. Do they just write something on a piece of paper or is there a setting on the machines for this

This would usually be a Travel Irregularity Report if they are withdrawing the ticket.

 

[gpus28]

Update on this. They have sent my ticket to their fraud department due to me lying about it being mine then that I had a ticket. Any ideas what will happen next?

 

[WesternLancer]

Update on this. They have sent my ticket to their fraud department due to me lying about it being mine then that I had a ticket. Any ideas what will happen next?

Hi - I'm not exactly sure but suspect this will be because they are starting to investigate things in more detail, on intend to - I suspect. They may want to contact your husband (assume they can trace his address from the season ticket /gold card) to establish if this was taken without his permission, or if he knew about it / let you use it (ie was complicit in the fraudulent use of the season / card).

Others may be able to offer better informed advice/info on this.

I suspect there are going to be various stages that will happen before you get this untangled and resolved in the least worst way - but with the help of this forum you will get good advice on what is best to do at each stage to try to minimise the problems.

 

[gpus28]

Thank you! We logged a call with Customer services last night too to confirm I used it rather than stole it. I know that doesn’t take away from the potential offence but was hoping that if it is investigated that they can see we called straight up and confirmed what happened. I’m most concerned about what will happen to me as obviously I don’t want to be prosecuted over it.

Unfortunately no one at SouthEastern seems to be able to help with what happens at the Fraud office

 

[Titfield]

Update on this. They have sent my ticket to their fraud department due to me lying about it being mine then that I had a ticket. Any ideas what will happen next?

How do you know this? (Was there an email, letter, phone call?)

Sorry but this is not very clear.

You say "they have sent my ticket to the fraud department". Do you mean the ticket you had to purchase on the day Or do you mean the gold card?

I am not sure what effect this will have because they will already be able to trace your husband through the gold card which was confiscated and they already have your contact details because you gave them and presumably they used the, to give you this update. (post 1).

I would still advise your husband to contact the TOC and make enquiries how he can get his card back? I think he should be ready with a truthful answer as to how you came to be in possession of it.

EDIT

Just seen your further update which answers some of these questions.

I think you need to prepare a response along the lines of the advice which @Hadders gives to respond to letters re invalid tickets.

I would also add in detail to make repeat that you used it rather than stole it. I think trying to navigate a path between you taking it without permission (stole it) or with your husbands permission (which will get him into trouble ) is quite difficult but perhaps using the ambiguous wording "used it" as you have already done is best until / if they come back for clarification.

They may ask if you have done this before which obviously you need to answer truthfully but if they do not ask then do not self incriminate.

I do think you and your husband need to follow up on this asap by getting an email address and sending a letter.

I do not know the value of the gold card in terms of what the daily fare your husband will have to pay until / if the card is returned but it seems to me sensible to at least try and minimise this cost.

In terms of avoiding prosecution I think the best advice that can be given is to stick to the advice we generally give: engage, apologise, be contrite, be sincere and state it will not happen again.

 

[Haywain]

Says that they must provide a receipt. How is that even managed. Do they just write something on a piece of paper or is there a setting on the machines for this

Giving a receipt seems reasonable when the ticket is withdrawn from the legitimate ticket holder but I don’t see how anyone using a ticket that belongs to another person has any rights under the NRCoT.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

Not to state the obvious either but as you would’ve been cautioned (you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence…) then subsequently knowingly lied under caution (saying you have your own card) this is also an offence in its own right. They would easily be able to see that you do not in fact have your own gold card so did you also tell them this while on the phone?

 

[alholmes]

Thank you! We logged a call with Customer services last night too to confirm I used it rather than stole it.

You shouldn’t assume that anything that you say to the Customer Services team will be passed on to the Fraud/Investigations team. They are completely unconnected. Similarly, you shouldn’t rely on anything that the Customer Services team tell you about these types of incidents - they won’t have access to any details of your cases. We’ve seen other instances on this forum of customer service teams providing unhelpful or misleading information.

You really need to be communicating with the specialist team. You’ve given an update this morning to say that the ticket has been sent to the fraud department - who gave you this information how did they inform you of it (email, phone call, letter etc.)? Does it provide any contact details?

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately no one at SouthEastern seems to be able to help with what happens at the Fraud office

They are investigating you for committing a criminal offence, so it is best to sit and wait for now.

 

[gpus28]

You shouldn’t assume that anything that you say to the Customer Services team will be passed on to the Fraud/Investigations team. They are completely unconnected. Similarly, you shouldn’t rely on anything that the Customer Services team tell you about these types of incidents - they won’t have access to any details of your cases. We’ve seen other instances on this forum of customer service teams providing unhelpful or misleading information.

You really need to be communicating with the specialist team. You’ve given an update this morning to say that the ticket has been sent to the fraud department - who gave you this information how did they inform you of it (email, phone call, letter etc.)? Does it provide any contact details?

My husband went back to the guy that confiscated the ticket and he advised him he passed it to the Fraud team. Unfortunately I can’t get any direct access to call them etc and like you (or above) stated, they don’t seem to be connected. I’ve had no updates from Southeastern and no contact details have been provided to me my husband just spoke to the guy that took the ticket away.

Not to state the obvious either but as you would’ve been cautioned (you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence…) then subsequently knowingly lied under caution (saying you have your own card) this is also an offence in its own right. They would easily be able to see that you do not in fact have your own gold card so did you also tell them this while on the phone?

I wasn’t cautioned or given any information or had any details taken except my contact details. It was not any form of police or ticket officers, just the barrier guy at Southeastern

 

[WesternLancer]

Unfortunately I can’t get any direct access to call them etc and like you (or above) stated, they don’t seem to be connected. I’ve had no updates from Southeastern and no contact details have been provided to me my husband just spoke to the guy that took the ticket away.

Post #31 of this thread includes a copy of a letter uploaded from SE Trains prosecutions team - although the postal address is obscured, there is an e-mail address listed in the body of the letter for them - in case that is any use to you

Urgent help needed to draft response for out of court settlement please?

Hi all I received this letter on Tuesday and have been trying to contact solicitors for advice. I noticed the date the letter was sent was Friday (27th) the letter says to respond in 7days and I have been advised I need to respond by Friday. Please can someone help draft an email requesting for...

www.railforums.co.uk

and post 15 from this thread shows an upload of a letter with the postal address showing (a PO Box in Ashford)

Southeastern Railway Fare Evasion Prosecution

Hi all, I am new here so not sure how this website works but I had a situation I needed to get some advice on as I've never experienced anything like it previously. On January 19th, I was travelling from Ashford International to St Pancras International on the high speed. Due to personal...

www.railforums.co.uk

Both from 2023 so not too long ago

EDIT - I had meant to mention, but forgot, that the usual advice on here is to wait until you are contacted by the Train company (ref @island 's post #24) - though I can see that in this case there is presumably the added problem of your husband now being without a season ticket that he has paid for, and is now incurring additional ticket purchase costs for travel

 

[gpus28]

Post #31 of this thread includes a copy of a letter uploaded from SE Trains prosecutions team - although the postal address is obscured, there is an e-mail address listed in the body of the letter for them - in case that is any use to you

Urgent help needed to draft response for out of court settlement please?

Hi all I received this letter on Tuesday and have been trying to contact solicitors for advice. I noticed the date the letter was sent was Friday (27th) the letter says to respond in 7days and I have been advised I need to respond by Friday. Please can someone help draft an email requesting for...

www.railforums.co.uk

and post 15 from this thread shows an upload of a letter with the postal address showing (a PO Box in Ashford)

Southeastern Railway Fare Evasion Prosecution

Hi all, I am new here so not sure how this website works but I had a situation I needed to get some advice on as I've never experienced anything like it previously. On January 19th, I was travelling from Ashford International to St Pancras International on the high speed. Due to personal...

www.railforums.co.uk

Both from 2023 so not too long ago

Thank you that’s helpful

 

[island]

Thank you! We logged a call with Customer services last night too to confirm I used it rather than stole it.

You really do need to wait until the investigation team writes to you.

Saying you "used it rather than stole it" might seem innocuous to you but could also land your husband in trouble as well for the offence of transferring a ticket with the intent to allow another person to evade their fare.

For now, just stop. No more calls, no more emails, wait until they contact you.

 

[furlong]

For now, just stop. No more calls, no more emails, wait until they contact you.

Yes - when in a hole stop digging! The updates you posted make it sound as though you could already be making things worse for you both. People are often confused, but in law, borrowing on its own does not amount to theft - so put theft completely out of your mind as situations like you have described are almost always handled only as railway-specific offences.

Perhaps it wasn't clear enough before - I hope it is now. Your husband can also be prosecuted if he allowed you to use the ticket. But even if he did (which we don't know here and don't want to know), would they be able to prove that in court unless one of you volunteers this information about some hypothetical private conversation between you? (Look up 'no comment interview' on the internet.) And his travel contract remains in place and he's probably entitled to a replacement - unless they have a way to demonstrate he broke the contract, such as by lending it to you.

 

[gpus28]

He did indeed lend it to me which I understand from the above may get him in trouble. We’ve only called up twice, once to log the issue (were advised by another rail officer to do so) and once to follow up and I’m glad we did call the second time as the notes hadn’t been very good from the first one. A couple of you have said not to call again and we won’t. I also haven’t emailed anyone either….just two calls….

 

[WesternLancer]

He did indeed lend it to me which I understand from the above may get him in trouble. We’ve only called up twice, once to log the issue (were advised by another rail officer to do so) and once to follow up and I’m glad we did call the second time as the notes hadn’t been very good from the first one. A couple of you have said not to call again and we won’t. I also haven’t emailed anyone either….just two calls….

In fairness to you I don't think any of the early advice to you after your first post indicated that you should not contact them until they contact you.

I think South Eastern are relatively pragmatic about fare evasion and there is a good chance of settling with them without them prosecuting you. The general advice on here about achieving settlements is to co-operate with the train company - and in contacting them you were no doubt trying to do that.

But of course when you and / or your husband do hear from them then no doubt people on here will be able to give you good advice on the next steps if you want to head back for help.

 

[Greyman1]

Well yes but this surely would be extremely harsh and disproportionate to the attempted misuse of the card by someone other than the person it was issued to. It is punishing the wrong person.

But is an option they could choose to use. It has not been used within the terms and conditions set out.

Says that they must provide a receipt. How is that even managed. Do they just write something on a piece of paper or is there a setting on the machines for this

Any documentation the staff member gave will be counted as the receipt.

 

[gpus28]

But is an option they could choose to use. It has not been used within the terms and conditions set out.


Any documentation the staff member gave will be counted as the receipt.

Unfortunately the staff gave no documentation at all to me. No explanation nothing, I did ask a few times but he ushered me away telling me to just get my train and that I didn’t need to worry what would happen to the ticket.