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Used tanks - Why is the Leopard the tank of choice?

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DarloRich

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Can anyone explain or point to any resources that explain why the Leopard is the tank of choice for Ukraine over, say, the Challenger or the Abrahams or even Russian tanks former Warsaw pact countries?

I assume it is because it is easy to learn, easy to maintain, has a good engine and transmission, a good gun, decent armour, has been built in large numbers and spares are easy to find. I kind off assumed it was a modern day cross between a Sherman and a Tiger tank but i may be miles off.

Hoping the hive mind here can help!

PS MORE than happy to be sending tanks to Ukraine. I don't want to debate that but want to understand why the Leopard is the tank of choice.
 
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birchesgreen

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Well i think there are more Leopards available than Challengers and it is not as techno as the Abrahms which is gas turbine powered.
 

Iskra

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It's got good weapon range with many different types of ammunition suitable for a variety of target types, is very well armoured and quite fast. Also many countries use them so they are plentiful.
 

RichJF

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Best compromise of the Western tanks that could've been donated. There's also probably more stored/serviceable Leopard 2s available on short notice than the Chally or Abrams. I'm sure the Ukrainian crews will appreciate the Challenger's BV though!

Challenger 2: Phenomenal protection (some details still classified) but slow & uses bespoke rifled ammunition. Very limited numbers.
Abrams: Great firepower & uses smoothbore ammunition but maintenance/fuel heavy..
Leopard 2: Fastest off road, good firepower & uses smoothbore ammunition but less effective protection. More vehicles stockpiled.
 

DarloRich

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I assume any of the three Western tanks are more than a match for all but the most modern Soviet vehicles?

Is the French tank ( Leclerc?) part of the discussion?
 

ainsworth74

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Can anyone explain or point to any resources that explain why the Leopard is the tank of choice for Ukraine over, say, the Challenger or the Abrahams or even Russian tanks former Warsaw pact countries?

Ex-Warsaw Pact stocks are increasingly exhausted and what's left is either still needed by the potential donor or is likely so rotten as to be a liability rather than useful. Though there are probably still some knocking around. Eitherway they don't bring a qualitiive advantage over the Russian stuff and, in some respects when the Russian kit is as advertised, are worse. A T-90 is tougher than a T-72 or T-64 which is a lot of What Ukraine already operates or has received as donations.

Challenger 2 is an excellent MBT (though long in the tooth in some areas) but there are precious few of them. There were only ever slightly under 400 made for the British Army of which a little over 200 remain operational. It's safe to assume that the rest have been stripped for spares and/or have rotted away and would need significant work to restore to operational condition. Of the roughly 200 that still might be operational a decent chunk of those are probably "operational" and themselves would need work. The British Army was only expecting to be allowed to convert 148 from Challenger 2 to Challenger 3 so I suspect the vehicles over that number are probably increasingly having been put out to pasture. Fundamentally it remains an excellent MBT but there are so few of them that unless we up and give Ukraine our entire tank fleet we'll never be able to give enough to make a real difference.

Abrams is also an excellent MBT (the latest versions will be better than Challenger 2) and it is available in large numbers. The Lima Tank Plant in Ohio is still churning the things out even though the US Army has more than it knows what to do with thanks to Congress continuing to buy tanks each year. There are thousands of the damn things parked up in the deserts out in the western US that probably just need refurbishment and could roll into battle. But there are issues. Logistics are somewhat tricky. Whilst some people have gotten fixated on fuel (and fuel usage) this is a red herring. The US Army powers their Abrams using jet fuel because it's logistically simpler for them to do so. But the engine is a multifuel engine. If its liquid and burns an Abrams can probably run on it. It can certainly run on the Ukrainian fuel of choice which is diesel. Equally whilst its a complex beasty I think it's unwise to doubt the capabilities of Ukrainian maintenance personnel at this point. No the main issue would be that if you need spare parts, especially spares which you cannot easily manufacture locally, then you're having to rely on the US logistical tail running through Germany and back to the continental United States.

Another issue, which I've not seen much discussion of, is that there are legal export controls which prevent (in theory) the US government sending US Army specification Abrams to overseas users. Previous expert versions have had to have an entirely different turret design which lacks a lot of the Gucci electronics and armour features (it's one of the reasons why it's easy to find videos and pictures of destroyed Iraqi Abrams). This means that in order to send them Ukraine, assuming no exemption is forthcoming and just look at the state of the Republican controlled House of Representatives, new turrets are required. This means it will take time. Lots of it.

Which leaves the Leopard 2. Leo 2 is also an excellent MBT (keyboard warriors love debating which is the best MBT, reality is you'd be happy with any of these three to be quite honest and the deciding factors are likely to be things out with the tank itself!). Leo 2 has the advantage of there being lots of them lying around (hundreds within Europe of varying types) so whilst each donor has to weigh the loss of their own tank force whilst seeking replacements if ever operator donates a small number that will soon add up to quite a decent amount for Ukraine. Logistically it's simpler. Poland and Germany all operate them and are geographically close to Ukraine meaning it's quicker and easier to get spares to and from Ukraine. Training can be done in Poland (and is allegedly already starting) by Ukrainian crews. Now that Germany has finally be kicked into doing the right thing there aren't export controls to worry about so they can be provided pretty much as is. It just ticks a lot of boxes whilst Abrams and Challenger 2 both tick lots of the same boxes but just not necessarily as many as Leo 2 does.
 

ainsworth74

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I assume any of the three Western tanks are more than a match for all but the most modern Soviet vehicles?
In competent hands any NATO MBT would make mincemeat of any Russian MBT other than perhaps the brand new T-14 but it isn't quite clear how much of it is actually vapour wear (i.e. propaganda) and they only have a few dozen at most.
Is the French tank ( Leclerc?) part of the discussion?
You would have to ask the French! Leclerc is also an excellent MBT and would work extremely well for Ukraine. It even has an autoloader like Ukrainian ex-Soviet tanks do meaning three man rather than four man crew that other NATO MBTs have. But, again, the numbers are potentially limited as France only has around 200 and probably feels that it needs most of those for its own defence needs.
 

DarloRich

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@ainsworth74 very detailed. Thanks.

I need to do some more research before getting my next tank!

PS does the Challenger still have the hot water boiler for brewing up. That seems a civilised touch

(Tank, 30 degrees, 800 yards, anti tank round, FIRE - thank you corporal milk no sugar - would you mind hosing down that hedgerow with the machine gun while it brews? Jolly good)
 

AndrewE

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I think I heard that the Leopards are still in production too, so both replacements and spare parts can be turned out fast for a campaign that will need quite a bit of them.
 

ainsworth74

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I think I heard that the Leopards are still in production too, so both replacements and spare parts can be turned out fast for a campaign that will need quite a bit of them.
Abrams and Leopard 2 are both in active production.
 

Lost property

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It's got good weapon range with many different types of ammunition suitable for a variety of target types, is very well armoured and quite fast. Also many countries use them so they are plentiful.
A former O.C 1 Royal Tank Regt. gave an interview on C4 News last week explaining why the Leopard was the tank of choice. As you say these points were included, plus survivability when hit, a range of 500-600 miles before refuelling, and, it can fight at night which apparently Russian tanks can't. He acknowledged the Abrahams and the Challenger, but did say their weight was another factor compared to the Leopard.
 

Mogster

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the Lepoard and Challenger were designed with different roles in mind.

The Challenger is heavily armoured, like a mobile bunker almost. It was designed to stay in one place, slowing a Russian attack, destroying Russian tanks while being hard to destroy its self. It’s also good at infantry support, well protected and speed isn’t necessary there. The Leopard is bigger but much lighter armoured, faster, more mobile, able to roam around killing enemy tanks then dashing away. Cornered the Leopard wouldn’t last as long as the Challenger.

Both are capable vehicles. The big downside to the Challenger is the finite numbers available, no more are being produced unfortunately. Also are the Ukrainians sufficiently organised to be able to use these vehicles in the correct roles?

Tbh it’ll be very interesting to see how these vehicles perform in Ukraine.
 

ainsworth74

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The Challenger is heavily armoured, like a mobile bunker almost. It was designed to stay in one place, slowing a Russian attack, destroying Russian tanks while being hard to destroy its self. It’s also good at infantry support, well protected and speed isn’t necessary there. The Leopard is bigger but much lighter armoured, faster, more mobile, able to roam around killing enemy tanks then dashing away. Cornered the Leopard wouldn’t last as long as the Challenger.
Certainly the Leopard 1 was lightly armoured for an MBT and the Challenger 2 has better protection than a Leopard 2 (particularly the A4 variant) but I'm not so certain the difference is that great in the grand scheme. Leopard 2 is zippier (and lighter) than a Challenger 2 and if I had to take a hit I'd rather be in a Challenger 2 (or current generation Abrams) rather than a Leopard. But "much" lighter armoued? I'm not so sure that's the case with the Leopard 2. Whole heartedly agreed on the Leopard 1 however in comparison to equivalent MBTs from the same era however!
 

Yew

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Also are the Ukrainians sufficiently organised to be able to use these vehicles in the correct roles?
Typically there is a lot of training going around, the Ukranians seem to have developed (or been told) of very effective ways to use HIMARS. I'd daresay that excercises between say, Poland and the UK have included wargames on how best to integrate NATO MBT's and ex-Soviet kit.
 

Butts

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Seems like there's no chance of a 2nd Battle of Kursk with the minimal number of tanks being bandied about.

Believe that involved about 6000 Units.

Haven't the Germans got any King Tigers knocking about anywhere - SS 2nd Panzer Division Das Reich would come in handy.

Time to unleash Porta, Tiny, The Old Man and Legionnaire for a belated run out :E
 

DarloRich

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Does the Challenger still have a Rifled barrel? I thought i had read they were to be changed for smooth bore.
Haven't the Germans got any King Tigers knocking about anywhere

I think the King Tiger had issues against the T34's in service during WW2. The way things are going the Russians might be using T34's soon!

The Tank museum at Bovingdon has a Tiger II in it's collections. There aren't many surviving
 

JamesT

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Does the Challenger still have a Rifled barrel? I thought i had read they were to be changed for smooth bore.
I believe the Challenger 3 upgrade includes replacing the gun with a new smoothbore one. But the existing fleet still have their rifled barrels.
 

ainsworth74

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I think the King Tiger had issues against the T34's in service during WW2.
The King Tiger had issues in general by being very heavy, very fuel hungry, underpowered for its size and a pain to maintain. When it got into the fight it was tough but getting it and keeping it in the fight was no easy thing. There also weren't all that many of them either.
I believe the Challenger 3 upgrade includes replacing the gun with a new smoothbore one. But the existing fleet still have their rifled barrels.
Yes the existing fleet is still on the original rifled gun whilst Challenger 3 is expected to use a Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore gun which is also used on the Leopard 2 and a version of which is also used on the US M1A1 and M1A2. Apparently we've looked in the past at switching the guns (makes ammunition cheaper as we have to make our own ammunition don't get economies of scale as the only users is us and Oman) but due to the way the ammunition is handled the existing turret could only handle a handful of rounds with the new gun. Hence why the big thing for Challenger 3 is a brand new turret.
 

The Ham

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Follow up question about tanks, does the Ukrainian chippies have the measurements for each tank?

As I'm looking forward to the first 100 challenger 2 tanks being destroyed (at least claimed by Russia).
 
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