Using a Senior Railcard with an All Line Railrover - restrictions in the Network Railcard area

[Roger B]

I have the happy (?) prospect of turning 60 next year, and am I planning a two-week all line rail rover to celebrate.

The National Rail Senior Railcard website (https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/validity/) states:

"Your Railcard is not valid during the morning peak period when travelling between two stations in the Network Railcard area of validity. Check locally to confirm morning peak times as these do differ. This restriction does not apply on public holidays".

Does this mean between any two stations in the Network Railcard area that are en-route between the starting station of a journey and my destination? Or does it mean just between stations, where both starting station and destination are in the Network Railcard area? And if the latter, then if either the starting station or the destination is not in the Network Railcard area, then presumably it's permitted?

Does this restriction also apply to journeys made with an All Line Rover purchased with a Senior Railcard? If journeys are permitted whether either the start station or the destination is outside the Network Railcard area, then can I travel on a train in the peak if my destination is outside the Network Railcard area - eg Tonbridge - Victoria - when I'm heading to York for the day.

And finally, can anyone point me to a definitive ruling for this, in case I'm challenged while travelling.

Many thanks

 

[XAM2175]

Or does it mean just between stations where both starting station and destination are in the Network Railcard area?

I read it as meaning this; it only bars travel where both your origin station and your destination station are within the Network Railcard area. I stress though that this is only my impression.

 

[1955LR]

That is my understanding as well

 

[Haywain]

With ‘normal’ tickets the time restriction on using the railcard applies only to journeys (tickets) wholly within the Network Railcard area, so Tonbridge to Victoria is restricted but Tonbridge to York via Victoria* is not. An ALR is a ticket for a journey to or from somewhere - or anywhere - outside the Network Railcard area so it is not restricted by use of a Senior Railcard. However, the ALR time restrictions at certain London stations still apply.

* The ticket from Tonbridge must extend to some point outside the NR area if splitting.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Having lived in the Network South East area for ever, including into my entitlement for a Senior Railcard I just thought that that it was a standard Senior Railcard condition that it couldn't be used in the morning peak. I was quite astonished to discover after a year or so, when I happened to be visiting Birmingham, that I could use the discount in the peak hours too. I had understood that I could get Senior Railcard discounted tickets for longer distances, for example departing London at 10am, but requiring peak hour travel to get there, but I just took it that the applicability of the discount was determined by the off peak nature of the leg of the journey out of London, not that the destination was outside the Network South East area.
I found that for a trip into London which required peak travel into town, but off-peak return, two single tickets were cost effective, because a non-discounted single up, with a discounted single down was cheaper than a non-discounted return.

Now I live outside the NSE area I occasionally make use of the Railcard discount for travel before 9.30am.

 

[Haywain]

I found that for a trip into London which required peak travel into town, but off-peak return, two single tickets were cost effective, because a non-discounted single up, with a discounted single down was cheaper than a non-discounted return.

In some cases one might even find that a return ticket for a much longer journey could be cheaper than even that combination, especially where the longer journey would allow the use of an Off Peak ticket.

 

[1955LR]

Can anyone tell me why its called a "Network Railcard" Area ? I had never heard of it , living in Hereford, and it meant nothing until I picked it up on this Forum?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Can anyone tell me why its called a "Network Railcard" Area ? I had never heard of it , living in Hereford, and it meant nothing until I picked it up on this Forum?

It was the old Network South East area

 

[Haywain]

Can anyone tell me why its called a "Network Railcard" Area ? I had never heard of it , living in Hereford, and it meant nothing until I picked it up on this Forum?

Because it is the area where the Network Railcard is valid and was, originally, the Network South East area. Roughly speaking, it's the south east of England with extensions to places like Worcester and Exeter (but not by all routes from London) and Kings Lynn. It was also the same are as the Network Gold Card but that is now the Annual Gold Card and the area covered has extended dramatically in recent years.

 

[PeterY]

My understanding and I've done several ALR's is that they can be used on any service at any time, accept the very few restrictions out of some London termini on Inter-city trains before 10 and some stupid restriction though Birmingham New Street.

 

[Haywain]

the very few restrictions out of some London termini on Inter-city trains before 10 and some stupid restriction though Birmingham New Street.

If you are based in the London area those restrictions are quite draconian, especially on the Midland main line.

 

[jfollows]

My understanding and I've done several ALR's is that they can be used on any service at any time, accept the very few restrictions out of some London termini on Inter-city trains before 10 and some stupid restriction though Birmingham New Street.

...and if you buy a discounted all-line rover using a railcard then the railcard may impose additional restrictions of its own, which is the reason for this thread in the first place. The last ALR I bought I used a Two Together railcard and therefore couldn't use the rover until 09:30 on weekdays, for example.

 

[Roger B]

...and if you buy a discounted all-line rover using a railcard then the railcard may impose additional restrictions of its own, which is the reason for this thread in the first place. The last ALR I bought I used a Two Together railcard and therefore couldn't use the rover until 09:30 on weekdays, for example.

Thanks jfollows - that's what I understood, which is why I was seeking to understand the restrictions of the Senior Railcard within the Network Railcard area.

If the Network Railcard restriction only applies to journeys where both starting station and destination are within the Network Railcard area, then would journeys south of London (eg Gillingham) into London in the peak would be permissable if my destination was outside the Network Railcard area (eg York)?

But as can be seen from this thread, it would appear that the answer's not clear cut! I was hoping that some knowledgeable ticketing guru might be able to provide a definitive answer, and be able to point to the relevent specific guidance within the ticketing Ts & Cs. Can anyone do that, please?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm hoping to use the ALR to knock-off most of the outstanding PSUL lines - including a few south of London - eg Chislehurst Junction to St Mary Cray Junction via the Up Chatham loop - only accessible by a few trains, all of which are early morning trains within peak hours Monday to Friday only.

 

[Haywain]

The answer is very clear; an ALR with a Senior Railcard discount does not have any additional time restrictions on its use over and above those for an undiscounted ALR.

 

[AM9]

Thanks jfollows - that's what I understood, which is why I was seeking to understand the restrictions of the Senior Railcard within the Network Railcard area.

If the Network Railcard restriction only applies to journeys where both starting station and destination are within the Network Railcard area, then would journeys south of London (eg Gillingham) into London in the peak would be permissable if my destination was outside the Network Railcard area (eg York)?

But as can be seen from this thread, it would appear that the answer's not clear cut! I was hoping that some knowledgeable ticketing guru might be able to provide a definitive answer, and be able to point to the relevent specific guidance within the ticketing Ts & Cs. Can anyone do that, please?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm hoping to use the ALR to knock-off most of the outstanding PSUL lines - including a few south of London - eg Chislehurst Junction to St Mary Cray Junction via the Up Chatham loop - only accessible by a few trains, all of which are early morning trains within peak hours Monday to Friday only.

South of the Thames is a problem because all routes to the coast are within the Network Card area. One of the nearest borders of the area is on the GEML, where Ipswich is,outside, so travelling into central London can be much earlier when you loop out again via Liverpool St.. Indeed, a discounted off-peak ticket from St Albans to Manningtree is almost the same as an undiscounted ticket to Norwich if you leave Liverpool St on the 09:30.

 

[jfollows]

The answer is very clear; an ALR with a Senior Railcard discount does not have any additional time restrictions on its use over and above those for an undiscounted ALR.

The terms and conditions (https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/) are slightly different from the FAQ quoted above:

Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the  London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details.

and whilst you could construe this to mean "an all-line rover discounted with a Senior railcard can not be used for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area" it doesn't actually say this. Without this being explicitly stated I would agree with this interpretation; in the very unlikely event of a challenge it'd be easy to say that I had started my journey in Wilmslow (say) or was on my way there.
My general experience with the all-line rover is that virtually nobody who checks tickets knows what it is, that it never works in any barrier (there are reported exceptions!) and that the few people who do recognise them know this because they don't work in any barrier. They were probably better recognised before the restrictions which prevent long-distance commuting came in (I used them 20 years ago for this purpose).
Also, the "discounts are not available" rule is going to apply to ticket machines and ticket offices, and since you already have the ticket this is irrelevant to the discounted all-line rover.
But the weekday 09:30 restriction does apply to the Two Together railcard, however that's system-wide.
I haven't yet bought an all-line rover with my Senior railcard, and I no longer live in the London & South East area, so it's less of a concern, but I wouldn't worry about using it on a Clapham-Whitstable trip (for example) even so.

 

[Roger B]

The terms and conditions (https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/) are slightly different from the FAQ quoted above:

and whilst you could construe this to mean "an all-line rover discounted with a Senior railcard can not be used for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area" it doesn't actually say this. Without this being explicitly stated I would agree with this interpretation; in the very unlikely event of a challenge it'd be easy to say that I had started my journey in Wilmslow (say) or was on my way there.
My general experience with the all-line rover is that virtually nobody who checks tickets knows what it is, that it never works in any barrier (there are reported exceptions!) and that the few people who do recognise them know this because they don't work in any barrier. They were probably better recognised before the restrictions which prevent long-distance commuting came in (I used them 20 years ago for this purpose).
Also, the "discounts are not available" rule is going to apply to ticket machines and ticket offices, and since you already have the ticket this is irrelevant to the discounted all-line rover.
But the weekday 09:30 restriction does apply to the Two Together railcard, however that's system-wide.
I haven't yet bought an all-line rover with my Senior railcard, and I no longer live in the London & South East area, so it's less of a concern, but I wouldn't worry about using it on a Clapham-Whitstable trip (for example) even so.

Many thanks jfollows - that's really helpful.

 

[paul1609]

In some cases one might even find that a return ticket for a much longer journey could be cheaper than even that combination, especially where the longer journey would allow the use of an Off Peak ticket.

In some cases where one needs an anytime single to town on hs1 one might find a super off peak return where you can save £7 by throwing the outward ticket away and stopping short on the return portion.