Vaccine Passports - currently being considered in Scotland & Wales

[farleigh]

No one is unnecessary, but individuals may still present an unnecessary and avoidable burden.

Wow.

 

[bramling]

No one is unnecessary, but individuals may still present an unnecessary and avoidable burden.

That being the case, will you be volunteering to never leave your front door, in case something happens which makes you a burden?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes it is their right but when they become an unnecessary burden on the NHS at the expense of someone else in need of treatment that's hardly fair and sometimes politicians have to make choices for the greater good - not that they will.

There’s a fair few burdens on the NHS, unvaccinated people are the least of their worries in that department

No one is unnecessary, but individuals may still present an unnecessary and avoidable burden.

Tell that to cancer patients who’ve smoked 20 a day for twenty or thirty years, unvaccinated people are the least of the burdens quite frankly, you’ve really shown your cards haven’t you.

While we the taxpayer funds the NHS it is ours to use, no health fascism here thanks.

 

[furlong]

As for weighing up the options, that's fine, but I am unsure what the downside(s) to the vaccines are claimed to be?

Answering that question without any indication of where my own views lie:

Generally the number of adverse effects reported being considerably higher than for vaccines that would traditionally get full regulatory approval, the back stories around the previous difficulties of creating effective vaccines against this type of virus and the commercial incentives around the new technologies which now gained indemnities, the ongoing debates about an appropriate definition of 'effectiveness' in the various contexts/populations in which the vaccines are being used, the lack of long-term data and concerns about how the virus might evolve under the pressure of the vaccines - all amid an environment of low trust in which authorities have repeatedly been caught out obscuring and misrepresenting data and suppressing dissent to perpetuate a myth where they can be seen to be in control of nature, instead of engaging in informed debate and experiment and admitting that in such a complex system significant uncertainties are inevitable and showing more humility and respect.

That is not the purpose of the vaccines, but it does massively reduce the chances of getting an infection.
It does not prevent all transmission, but it does dramatically reduce the possibility. But this isn't the main reason to get vaccinated anyway.

Some will say those both remain open questions of active debate - they will argue the data may be showing that the current vaccines seem to be having no noticeable impact on the chances of getting an infection or on the amount of transmission - after all, those were not criteria against which they were evaluated for their emergency approval. (Some even argue the vaccines seem to be increasing overall transmission e.g. by suppressing symptoms so people are infectious for longer without realising it while increasing their confidence to mix.)

For every plausible conclusion you reach, you can find a plausible argument that concludes the opposite Anyone offering certainties probably should not be trusted.

 

[Annetts key]

For every plausible conclusion you reach, you can find a plausible argument that concludes the opposite

Welcome to the real universe, where absolutely everything has an infinite number of possibilities… And where absolutely nothing is 100% certain (apart from eventual death)…

Anyone offering certainties probably should not be trusted.

Are you certain about that

In regards to the two COVID19 Corona virus vaccines that have been used extensively in this country, given the sheer number of people that have now been vaccinated (now above 88% for a first dose), statistically, the risk of serious side effects is low.

It goes without saying that there will always be some risk of unwanted and serious side affects with any medication. That’s part of the reason that medical staff are available at the vaccination centres and why they normally ask for people to wait for fifteen minutes after being vaccinated. And to ask or call for help if they experience any unexpected or serious side effects.

Regardless of the how/why/what of how these two COVID19 Corona virus vaccines were approved, in all likelihood, they would still have been approved for use if the process had taken the normal time.

 

[yorkie]

There’s a fair few burdens on the NHS, unvaccinated people are the least of their worries in that department

I don't think that's true.

Despite the vast majority of the population having been vaccinated, the majority of those in hospital are unvaccinated.

This is all the more striking when you consider the age profiles of these distinct groups.

Of those in hospital that are vaccinated, they are generally in hospital for something else and/or will be very elderly.

People who are unvaccinated will get infected sooner or later; it's inevitable. The question is whether you choose to give your immune system additional ammunition for that battle, or not. But why wouldn't you?

If just 0.5% (figure for illustrative purposes only) got unnecessarily hospitalised, out of (say) 5m people choosing not to get vaccinated, that would result in 25k unnecessary hospitalisations.

Yes there are many other ailments and there is far too much focus on Covid above all else, but unvaccinated people who become seriously ill are putting unnecessary strain on the NHS which is almost entirely avoidable.

I agree with you that lockdowns and restrictions are no longer necessary but I disagree with your views regarding vaccinations.

Vaccinations are the key to normality.

Remember the people who are most pro-restriction, such as Trish Greenhalgh, are very keen to deny the effectiveness of vaccines. They see the vaccines as a threat to the authoritarian restrictions they seek to impose on us.

Therefore, the best way for us to reject their arguments, is to all get vaccinated, live life normally and let the vaccines do what they are designed to do. Every vaccination gets us closer to normality and reduces the influence of the authoritarians.

 

[Bantamzen]

Cryptographically secure tokens to authenticate a piece of data are already a fact of life, in widespread constant use across the planet. This is not a new idea and the security experts are all quite happy with the concept. QR codes themselves have no security concerns, as all they are is a barcode. It's just a handy way of representing a bit of data without having to copy out a whole load of letters and numbers.

It would be trivial to create a secure identifier that can be verified between offline devices to carry a flag that the owner has a valid (and non-spoofed / copied) vaccine certificate, certainly against all but brute force attacks which take decades to carry out. Plus there's absolutely no need to share any personal information in that code - all you want to know is if it's been generated correctly by an authorised piece of software.

If there were obvious issues with using QR codes for authenticating data, then they (and other barcode types), wouldn't have been widely adopted for exactly that purpose. I suspect there's a lot more demand for cracking the aztec codes used on train tickets than there is copying someone's covid certificate. Then there's the barcodes already used for ticketing at events - they wouldn't be in use if it was easy to copy them and get into events for free.

You know as both a coder & a gamer, nothing grinds my gears more than hearing anyone try to claim that a bit of tech is unbreakable. And it annoys me because it demonstrates the same arrogance that modern day politicians are displaying when they try to "defeat the virus". I have a simple mantra when building applications for my employer, if I can make it they can break it. I would never try to claim otherwise, because I know its simply not true. I guarantee you that those train ticket QR codes will have already been exploited, as will have others used in all sorts of scenarios. And I also guarantee you that if those little blocks of pixels become a vital means to any kind of normality based on our health status, they will also be exploited. It would be naïve to say the least to claim otherwise.

But all of this is besides the point. It is not a case of can the tech work, but should we be applying it at all? Should we really be restricting facets of life because there is a statistically tiny risk that we might pass on a virus that kills someone else? Spoiler alert, the answer is no.

No one is unnecessary, but individuals may still present an unnecessary and avoidable burden.

As someone else said upthread, wow.

I wonder if you even realise that you are also an "unnecessary and avoidable burden" too, as are we all. You see that at any given moment we could suddenly need the help of the NHS whilst going about our daily business. Think about that the next time you pour yourself a hot drink, prepare food with a sharp knife, walk down some stairs.....

 

[Annetts key]

As someone else said upthread, wow.

I wonder if you even realise that you are also an "unnecessary and avoidable burden" too, as are we all. You see that at any given moment we could suddenly need the help of the NHS whilst going about our daily business. Think about that the next time you pour yourself a hot drink, prepare food with a sharp knife, walk down some stairs.....

If you want to continue to discuss this, consider this: if sentient life exists elsewhere in the universe, would they consider humans on this planet to be an an "unnecessary and avoidable burden" on the planet, given the damage we are doing to both it and to ourselves?

I don’t remember seeing any other single illness in recent times causing NHS hospitals to fill up to or beyond capacity apart from people infected with COVID19 Corona virus.

I believe being vaccinated is the choice of the individual. But an individual should make an informed choice. If they are hesitant, for their own health, I recommend they discuss their issues with their own doctor.

As well as potentially being of benefit to an individual for their own health, getting vaccinated decreases the likelihood that other restrictions will be needed to try to limit the number of COVID19 infections.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't think that's true.

Despite the vast majority of the population having been vaccinated, the majority of those in hospital are unvaccinated.

This is all the more striking when you consider the age profiles of these distinct groups.

Of those in hospital that are vaccinated, they are generally in hospital for something else and/or will be very elderly.

People who are unvaccinated will get infected sooner or later; it's inevitable. The question is whether you choose to give your immune system additional ammunition for that battle, or not. But why wouldn't you?

If just 0.5% (figure for illustrative purposes only) got unnecessarily hospitalised, out of (say) 5m people choosing not to get vaccinated, that would result in 25k unnecessary hospitalisations.

Yes there are many other ailments and there is far too much focus on Covid above all else, but unvaccinated people who become seriously ill are putting unnecessary strain on the NHS which is almost entirely avoidable.

I agree with you that lockdowns and restrictions are no longer necessary but I disagree with your views regarding vaccinations.

Vaccinations are the key to normality.

Remember the people who are most pro-restriction, such as Trish Greenhalgh, are very keen to deny the effectiveness of vaccines. They see the vaccines as a threat to the authoritarian restrictions they seek to impose on us.

Therefore, the best way for us to reject their arguments, is to all get vaccinated, live life normally and let the vaccines do what they are designed to do. Every vaccination gets us closer to normality and reduces the influence of the authoritarians.

Vaccines are the way out that I can agree on but I would agree with you if Vaccines were made to be the choice of the people but it too is being turned into a tool for the authoritarians, “no jab, no entry” policies are a path we don’t want to go down and as I said earlier it feeds into conspiracy theories and makes people stubborn about taking it.

I think @MikeWM Said earlier, it’s becoming like an abusive relationship at this point, at what point will we get to the stage where two jabs won’t be enough and there’ll be booster jabs?

To mandate vaccine passports for nightclubs, pubs and matches is one thing but to propose using it for universities is disgraceful, universities are a way to a better life for many.

 

[DustyBin]

If you want to continue to discuss this, consider this: if sentient life exists elsewhere in the universe, would they consider humans on this planet to be an an "unnecessary and avoidable burden" on the planet, given the damage we are doing to both it and to ourselves?

Quite possibly!

I don’t remember seeing any other single illness in recent times causing NHS hospitals to fill up to or beyond capacity apart from people infected with COVID19 Corona virus.

Flu, on a regular basis?

I believe being vaccinated is the choice of the individual. But an individual should make an informed choice. If they are hesitant, for their own health, I recommend they discuss their issues with their own doctor.

The problem is your average GP will simply parrot the official line. They’re not really qualified to do much more in a lot of cases.

As well as potentially being of benefit to an individual for their own health, getting vaccinated decreases the likelihood that other restrictions will be needed to try to limit the number of COVID19 infections.

I fundamentally disagree with you in regard to the effectiveness of restrictions, but at this point I’m surprised anybody would advocate reintroducing them.

 

[Bantamzen]

If you want to continue to discuss this, consider this: if sentient life exists elsewhere in the universe, would they consider humans on this planet to be an an "unnecessary and avoidable burden" on the planet, given the damage we are doing to both it and to ourselves?

I don’t remember seeing any other single illness in recent times causing NHS hospitals to fill up to or beyond capacity apart from people infected with COVID19 Corona virus.

I believe being vaccinated is the choice of the individual. But an individual should make an informed choice. If they are hesitant, for their own health, I recommend they discuss their issues with their own doctor.

As well as potentially being of benefit to an individual for their own health, getting vaccinated decreases the likelihood that other restrictions will be needed to try to limit the number of COVID19 infections.

The hospitals didn't fill to capacity though. And frankly you don't need to look far to see previous NHS crises. There's usually at least one a year. Try using your preferred search engine and you'll find them.

 

[brad465]

Looks like the proposals for vaccine requirements for lectures is being dropped:

Covid vaccine will not be compulsory for university lectures

Ministers are no longer considering making two doses mandatory for students in England, the BBC learns.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ministers are no longer considering making it compulsory for university students to be fully vaccinated against Covid to attend lectures in England, the BBC has been told.
The foreign secretary previously said students would get "advance warning" if they needed to be double jabbed.
The government plans to require two jabs to go to nightclubs and other crowded venues from September.
More than 71% of UK adults have had two doses so far, while 88% have had one.

The idea of making vaccines compulsory for university students - either to attend lectures or to live in halls of residence - was not ruled out by either education minister Vicky Ford or Downing Street when asked about it earlier this week.
And asked whether vaccination would be mandatory for students returning to halls of residence, Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab said a decision would be taken in September.
"We will certainly make sure university students have advance warning, of course we're going to be mindful of this," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme on Thursday.
But now the idea of requiring students in England to show proof of vaccination to attend lectures or stay in halls of residence has been shelved, the BBC has been told.
The governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are in charge of their own coronavirus rules and education policy.
Unions have been critical of making vaccines mandatory for university students.
The University and College Union previously said this would be wrong and "hugely discriminatory against those who are unable to be vaccinated" as well as for international students.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Looks like the proposals for vaccine requirements for lectures is being dropped:

Covid vaccine will not be compulsory for university lectures

Ministers are no longer considering making two doses mandatory for students in England, the BBC learns.

www.bbc.co.uk

Good!

I know it’s an unpopular thing to say but vaccines should be voluntary and based on how many have been vaccinated so far I think we can be trusted to do whatever is right for us individually, the more hardline you go the less people will comply.

I think DVP’s will eventually die a death but I am hearing of some venues allowing vaccinated customers only, not many are mind you, but I still think DVP’s will be dropped as we move on from Covid

 

[island]

I think they're unlikely to be around for domestic use for more than a year or so, though we might see them for international travel for longer.

I'm not massively supportive of them as a concept, although as my entire household is fully vaccinated we have no particular concerns about presenting them if asked.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think they're unlikely to be around for domestic use for more than a year or so, though we might see them for international travel for longer.

I'm not massively supportive of them as a concept, although as my entire household is fully vaccinated we have no particular concerns about presenting them if asked.

I don’t share your optimism, this government will cave into the pressures of SAGE or locktavists who want to feel ‘safe’ that’s why they shouldn’t go ahead at all.

 

[greyman42]

Some unions have managed to get some employers to encourage vaccination by allowing staff who feel unwell after being vaccinated to have up to two days off sick without these being counted towards an employees sick leave record. The employee is paid as normal, but is not recorded as having been sick.

That will just encourage staff to claim that they feel unwell and have time of work. The vast majority of people who have been vaccinated did not feel unwell enough to justify time of work. At best, give them the time of work but don't pay them. That should make the majority not feel unwell.

I think @MikeWM Said earlier, it’s becoming like an abusive relationship at this point, at what point will we get to the stage where two jabs won’t be enough and there’ll be booster jabs?

How do you expect anyone to have an answer to that? We may not even need booster jabs so how can anyone put a date on it?

I think they're unlikely to be around for domestic use for more than a year or so, though we might see them for international travel for longer.

I don't think they will ever be introduced for domestic use.

 

[island]

I don't think they will ever be introduced for domestic use.

Events are running in the UK as we speak which require COVID passports.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I don’t share your optimism, this government will cave into the pressures of SAGE or locktavists who want to feel ‘safe’ that’s why they shouldn’t go ahead at all.

Maybe but the arrival of Javid has tilted the balance away from where it was under Hancock and there is an increasing attempt to weave into the narrative that the human race needs to come to an accommodation with the virus if it wishes to continue on anything like its current trajectory. The govt can't do that in one jump having used all its effort to scare the populous into changing its behaviour it will have to start off slowly. Whats done is done and there is no point debating the merits of previous action but looking forward it needs to change the mindset of the populous. The majority are followers so as they see things changing around them ie demasking they will regain there confidence and normality will return but people need to ne patient this has been a big upheaval in peoples live the likes of which none of us have ever experienced.

 

[greyman42]

Events are running in the UK as we speak which require COVID passports.

I think they are what you would call trial events?

 

[eastdyke]

I don't think they will ever be introduced for domestic use.

So why then are our 'leaders' spending our money on these contracts?

Government signs Covid vaccine passport deals worth £1.6m that could last until 2023

The Government has spent almost £23.6 million on the UK’s Covid certification programme so far, despite some MPs claiming ministers will not follow through with the plans.

inews.co.uk

Vaccine passports: Government signs Covid jab passport deals worth £1.6m that could last until 2023​

Exclusive

The Government has spent almost £23.6 million on the UK’s Covid certification programme so far, despite some MPs claiming ministers will not follow through with the plans.​

July 30, 2021 7:00 am(Updated 7:03 am)

The Government has signed off vaccine passport contracts worth £1.6 million this week in a sign that Britons could be living with Covid certification for the next two years.
The Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) has signed two fresh contracts with technology firms for work on the Government’s vaccine passport scheme, i can reveal.
It brings the Government’s total spend on the UK’s Covid certification programme to almost £23.6 million, despite some MPs claiming a mandatory jab passport scheme has just been mooted as a tactic to increase vaccination rates.

What evidence do you need to make you just a tiny bit uncertain about your statement?

 

[island]

I think they are what you would call trial events?

I have no idea about trial-ness, but the two exhibitions at the NEC this weekend were required to check COVID passes by Solihull council by way of a requirements notice under section 5 of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (No. 3) Regulations 2020. As such, they have been introduced for domestic use.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So why then are our 'leaders' spending our money on these contracts then?

Government signs Covid vaccine passport deals worth £1.6m that could last until 2023

The Government has spent almost £23.6 million on the UK’s Covid certification programme so far, despite some MPs claiming ministers will not follow through with the plans.

inews.co.uk

What evidence do you need to make you just a tiny bit uncertain about your statement?

 

[eastdyke]

1.6million is small change i believe this ought to read billion

The money is not important, the direction of travel is.
There is much duplicity in the statements of our 'leaders'.

 

[NorthKent1989]

How do you expect anyone to have an answer to that? We may not even need booster jabs so how can anyone put a date on it?

I wasn’t expecting an answer, it was a rhetorical question, but booster jabs have been floating around for sometime now to tackle the variants.

Maybe but the arrival of Javid has tilted the balance away from where it was under Hancock and there is an increasing attempt to weave into the narrative that the human race needs to come to an accommodation with the virus if it wishes to continue on anything like its current trajectory. The govt can't do that in one jump having used all its effort to scare the populous into changing its behaviour it will have to start off slowly. Whats done is done and there is no point debating the merits of previous action but looking forward it needs to change the mindset of the populous. The majority are followers so as they see things changing around them ie demasking they will regain there confidence and normality will return but people need to ne patient this has been a big upheaval in peoples live the likes of which none of us have ever experienced.

Javid is miles better than Hancock, no doubt about it, he’s of the mindset that we need to move on from Covid and live with it, Hancock was a smug b@stard who enjoyed his power like a tin pot dictator.

The shift has to come very soon though, because thanks to Covid other issues have been ignored for far too long, I understand the need to be patient but Covid will gradually be shunted to the sidelines by next year with any luck.

So why then are our 'leaders' spending our money on these contracts?

Government signs Covid vaccine passport deals worth £1.6m that could last until 2023

The Government has spent almost £23.6 million on the UK’s Covid certification programme so far, despite some MPs claiming ministers will not follow through with the plans.

inews.co.uk

What evidence do you need to make you just a tiny bit uncertain about your statement?

They will try and push Covid passports for sure, however there is a general feeling with the vaxxed and unvaxxed that wants to move on from this now, the DVP’s have been successful on being both sides to an agreement finally.

The backlash in France may not stay in France but could come here, I think there is a great chance that the majority of venues will simply ignore DVP’s.

 

[greyman42]

So why then are our 'leaders' spending our money on these contracts?

Government signs Covid vaccine passport deals worth £1.6m that could last until 2023

The Government has spent almost £23.6 million on the UK’s Covid certification programme so far, despite some MPs claiming ministers will not follow through with the plans.

inews.co.uk

What evidence do you need to make you just a tiny bit uncertain about your statement?

It is just my opinion that, for one reason or another, they will not be introduced. I am not 100% certain that i am correct in that statement.

 

[RuralRambler]

Looks like the proposals for vaccine requirements for lectures is being dropped:

Covid vaccine will not be compulsory for university lectures

Ministers are no longer considering making two doses mandatory for students in England, the BBC learns.

www.bbc.co.uk

Sadly, I suspect that will just mean that fewer, if any, lectures will happen. It's a gift to the lecturers and their unions and gives them the green light to continue online teaching. It's a shame that no one gave the students a vote as to whether they'd prefer vaccines/lectures or no vaccines and no in-person lectures.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Sadly, I suspect that will just mean that fewer, if any, lectures will happen. It's a gift to the lecturers and their unions and gives them the green light to continue online teaching. It's a shame that no one gave the students a vote as to whether they'd prefer vaccines/lectures or no vaccines and no in-person lectures.

Plus the option of no compulsory vaccines and in-person lectures.

 

[RuralRambler]

Plus the option of no compulsory vaccines and in-person lectures.

I think that would be 100% as it's the perfect world solution, but sadly I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Sadly, I suspect that will just mean that fewer, if any, lectures will happen. It's a gift to the lecturers and their unions and gives them the green light to continue online teaching. It's a shame that no one gave the students a vote as to whether they'd prefer vaccines/lectures or no vaccines and no in-person lectures.

18-24 year old group have overtaken 25-29 age group with double dosage now so maybe government can see limited sense in frustrating the progress there making however slow in vaccinating the student age group.

 

[ainsworth74]

So why then are our 'leaders' spending our money on these contracts?

Presumably the friend, partner, local landlord or donor to the Tories needed a bit of cash.