Value of coaches such as Mark 2s

[Trainspotter43]

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone on here could assist (Either with professional knowledge or educated guesswork) with a general price range for buying a coach.

Obviously there’s differences in coaches (MK1, MK2, MK3 etc) and different types of coaches such as TSO, FSO, RBR etc so maybe that affects the prices as well, Maybe a catering vehicle costs more to buy than a standard TSO?

I just wondered as I saw that MK2 catering coach 1213 is up for sale from ERS and wondered how much ERS would be asking for.

Obviously I’m a rail enthusiast and not in any position to actually try to make a offer nor am I asking on anyones or groups behalf, I’m just generally interested.

All Help, Assistance, Links, Knowledge, Answers and discussion is highly appreciated.

 

[adc82140]

From what I've gathered from others the purchase cost can be relatively low, but they are sold as seen and where standing. That means the purchaser has to pay removal costs, and the seller won't be keen to have it remaining on their property, so there is also pressure of time.

 

[Trainspotter43]

From what I've gathered from others the purchase cost can be relatively low, but they are sold as seen and where standing. That means the purchaser has to pay removal costs, and the seller won't be keen to have it remaining on their property, so there is also pressure of time.

Thank you very much

 

[mike57]

From what I've gathered from others the purchase cost can be relatively low, but they are sold as seen and where standing. That means the purchaser has to pay removal costs, and the seller won't be keen to have it remaining on their property, so there is also pressure of time.

This is of interest to me as my Grandfather, who lived in Dersingham, near Kings Lynn bought an old railway carriage and set it up as home in the 1930s, it got extended over the years but some of the original structure survived into the 1960s, here is a picture which I have previously posted of a mini me playing outside it 1959. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...sed-for-other-uses.213998/page-4#post-5033906

There is no surviving paperwork, but family oral history is that it was a cheap way to create a 'starter home' for someone who was prepared to do some DIY, which my grandfather was capable with. Looking at Google earth its about 1/3rd of a mile from the station. I assume the carriage was bought direct from what would by then have been the LNER, so I wonder how the process worked in those days, and how it would have been moved to its final site. Both the station and the resulting bungalow have disappeared with no trace of the small holding which my grandfather created. Its all covered with later housing now.

 

[Teaboy1]

Need to factor in the cost of trailer and road transport fee. Could in some cases exceed the original cost of the carriage.

The Carriage Exchange

 

[Trainspotter43]

Need to factor in the cost of trailer and road transport fee. Could in some cases exceed the original cost of the carriage.

The Carriage Exchange

Thank you very much, At the moment the estimates I’ve had (All guesses so far) puts the purchase cost at around £20-£25K with Transport at around £7-£10K but as I say it’s guesswork at the moment.

 

[d0mokun]

Having worked with similar stuff in the heritage aviation sector, things as a rule of thumb go on weight and current scrap cost. Obviously if the vehicle is in a really good condition, certified, complete etc.. then that adds to the cost. £20-25k seems supremely high, though I have zero knowledge of rail vehicles outside shunters and things like that.

Looking at the Carriage Exchange site above and using my man-math logic, a 31T Mk2 (lightest one, so let's go for cheapest estimate) at a cost of £400 per tonne (again, low side estimate for the cost of steel) works out to £12,400; which seems about right. Again though, that's a rough scrap cost. So, all steel, seized up, incomplete and uncertified etc.

 

[Gloster]

From one or two things I have read, the purchaser is likely to be given a specific date from the completion of purchase to remove the vehicle from wherever it is. I am not sure what happens if they don’t, but it is probably going to be to the purchaser’s disadvantage, not the seller’s.

 

[Trainspotter43]

Having worked with similar stuff in the heritage aviation sector, things as a rule of thumb go on weight and current scrap cost. Obviously if the vehicle is in a really good condition, certified, complete etc.. then that adds to the cost. £20-25k seems supremely high, though I have zero knowledge of rail vehicles outside shunters and things like that.

Looking at the Carriage Exchange site above and using my man-math logic, a 31T Mk2 (lightest one, so let's go for cheapest estimate) at a cost of £400 per tonne (again, low side estimate for the cost of steel) works out to £12,400; which seems about right. Again though, that's a rough scrap cost. So, all steel, seized up, incomplete and uncertified etc.

Thank you very much, you’re certainly much better at maths than I am. Appreciate your experience

From one or two things I have read, the purchaser is likely to be given a specific date from the completion of purchase to remove the vehicle from wherever it is. I am not sure what happens if they don’t, but it is probably going to be to the purchaser’s disadvantage, not the seller’s.

Thank you very much, Maybe it’s in some contracts that the buyer must pay additional storage costs or something like that to the seller for delays in removing the item. No idea just a guess

 

[12LDA28C]

Thank you very much, Maybe it’s in some contracts that the buyer must pay additional storage costs or something like that to the seller for delays in removing the item. No idea just a guess

Indeed although in some cases that's not an option if a seller needs to clear a site quickly, eg for further railway use or redevelopment etc.

 

[Gloster]

Indeed although in some cases that's not an option if a seller needs to clear a site quickly, eg for further railway use or redevelopment etc.

Indeed. In some cases there may be a warning that if it is not removed on time, the vehicle may be scrapped on site and all costs will be the responsibility of the purchaser. These could be on top of the sale price or they could be deducted before any money is returned.

 

[fgwrich]

Whether or not your into anything slightly later, Angel Trains starting rate for a Mk3 was £5000. The TGS and TRSB being slightly higher.

 

[Trainspotter43]

Indeed although in some cases that's not an option if a seller needs to clear a site quickly, eg for further railway use or redevelopment etc.

Thank you very much

Indeed. In some cases there may be a warning that if it is not removed on time, the vehicle may be scrapped on site and all costs will be the responsibility of the purchaser. These could be on top of the sale price or they could be deducted before any money is returned.

Thank you, So it’s probably best to get the transport sorted as early as possible then

Whether or not your into anything slightly later, Angel Trains starting rate for a Mk3 was £5000. The TGS and TRSB being slightly higher.

Thank you very much, Is that about the normal price or do you think they put it lower to attract offers or because they had a high number of coaches for sale? I think all the GWR coaches were Angel Trains But. Hold be wrong

 

[43096]

Thank you very much, Is that about the normal price or do you think they put it lower to attract offers or because they had a high number of coaches for sale?

Some organisations got better prices than others. It depends who you’re dealing with, the type of organisation buying and the relationship between them. In other words “it depends”.

I think all the GWR coaches were Angel Trains But. Hold be wrong

Nope. GWR leased HST vehicles from three companies.

 

[Trainspotter43]

Some organisations got better prices than others. It depends who you’re dealing with, the type of organisation buying and the relationship between them. In other words “it depends”.

Nope. GWR leased HST vehicles from three companies.

Thank you very much for the correction

 

[Sean Emmett]

Note sure what they actually went for, but the Llangollen Railway auction may give a clue

Llangollen Heritage Railway holds auction to pay £350k debts

Carriages, a diesel shunting engine and railway cranes are among the items being auctioned.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Trainspotter43]

Note sure what they actually went for, but the Llangollen Railway auction may give a clue

Llangollen Heritage Railway holds auction to pay £350k debts

Carriages, a diesel shunting engine and railway cranes are among the items being auctioned.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thank you very much, so they reckon £20-£25K each so the guesses I’ve had may be correct. One thing it doesn’t say is whether they’re MK1/MK2 or what coach type they are.

 

[47434]

As I understand, the LLangollen Mk1's went for sums north of 35k plus auction fees and then transport on top. Mk2's will typically be cheaper as largely air braked so not as attractive to many pres railways.

 

[Trainspotter43]

As I understand, the LLangollen Mk1's went for sums north of 35k plus auction fees and then transport on top. Mk2's will typically be cheaper as largely air braked so not as attractive to many pres railways.

Thank you very much, Bet they were happy with anything over their £20-£25K estimate though. I don’t want to sound stupid but does being Air braked affect preserved railways more please? Is it easy to tell which locomotives on a preserved line can work with either Air brake or dual brakes coaches please? Sorry to sound dumb

 

[TheEdge]

Thank you very much, Bet they were happy with anything over their £20-£25K estimate though. I don’t want to sound stupid but does being Air braked affect preserved railways more please? Is it easy to tell which locomotives on a preserved line can work with either Air brake or dual brakes coaches please? Sorry to sound dumb

Preserved non mainline steam locos generally don't have anything other than a vacuum brake so air braked only stock is not of any interest to many preserved railways.

 

[Trainspotter43]

Preserved non mainline steam locos generally don't have anything other than a vacuum brake so air braked only stock is not of any interest to many preserved railways.

Thank you

 

[Titfield]

Thank you very much, Bet they were happy with anything over their £20-£25K estimate though. I don’t want to sound stupid but does being Air braked affect preserved railways more please? Is it easy to tell which locomotives on a preserved line can work with either Air brake or dual brakes coaches please? Sorry to sound dumb

Mark 1 Coaches (particularly TSO = Tourist Second Class Open) are much valued by many heritage railways as they combine the look of a heritage carriage (slam doors) with the desirability of being high seating capacity and usually with tables in a 16 tables X 4 seats per table configuration. Whilst compartment stock has more heritage appeal to the customer (think Harry Potter) it has the disadvantage of being lower capacity overall and it is more difficult to encourage passengers to share a compartment. Though Mk1s are renowned for rotting at the waist rail.

One other point Heritage Railways consider is if the carriage is equipped for steam heating, electric heating or dual heated. A steam heated carriage uses steam from the steam loco. If a diesel is used then either the diesel loco has to have an auxiliary steam boiler or the carriage has to be fitted for electric heating.

If Heritage Railways get into the realms of air braked stock then the complexities multiply.

Some heritage railways have acquired considerable amounts of rolling stock over the years and are faced with the dilemma of what to do with it all bearing in mind they may only have the resources to maintain a proportion of the stock. Hence you occasionally see adverts by HRs seeking to dispose of "non core" stock.

Carriages left in the open out of use even if sheeted over do deteriorate at quite a rate of knots. It can be quite a dilemma not wanting to dispose of heritage stock but equally not having the resources to maintain it or even store it in such a way that deterioration is minimised.

 

[Trainspotter43]

Mark 1 Coaches (particularly TSO = Tourist Second Class Open) are much valued by many heritage railways as they combine the look of a heritage carriage (slam doors) with the desirability of being high seating capacity and usually with tables in a 16 tables X 4 seats per table configuration. Whilst compartment stock has more heritage appeal to the customer (think Harry Potter) it has the disadvantage of being lower capacity overall and it is more difficult to encourage passengers to share a compartment. Though Mk1s are renowned for rotting at the waist rail.

One other point Heritage Railways consider is if the carriage is equipped for steam heating, electric heating or dual heated. A steam heated carriage uses steam from the steam loco. If a diesel is used then either the diesel loco has to have an auxiliary steam boiler or the carriage has to be fitted for electric heating.

If Heritage Railways get into the realms of air braked stock then the complexities multiply.

Some heritage railways have acquired considerable amounts of rolling stock over the years and are faced with the dilemma of what to do with it all bearing in mind they may only have the resources to maintain a proportion of the stock. Hence you occasionally see adverts by HRs seeking to dispose of "non core" stock.

Carriages left in the open out of use even if sheeted over do deteriorate at quite a rate of knots. It can be quite a dilemma not wanting to dispose of heritage stock but equally not having the resources to maintain it or even store it in such a way that deterioration is minimised.

Thank you so much for the explanation.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Whether or not your into anything slightly later, Angel Trains starting rate for a Mk3 was £5000. The TGS and TRSB being slightly higher.

Is that price bodyshell only without bogies?

It looks a bit low for a complete carriage?

 

[47434]

Is that price bodyshell only without bogies?

It looks a bit low for a complete carriage?

With bogies and the correct starting figures. Others, e.g. buffets were higher.

 

[Balders]

Thank you

However, as an exception to the rule the Wensleydale railway is in contrast to many other heritage railways in that the majority of their revenue stock is air braked MK2 and their locomotives are dual braked (even the class 14). They do have vacuum braked stock but it's in the minority.

I have noted, following the Heritage Carriage Register, that MK3 stock is filtering onto other heritage railways now, who are able to have visiting air braked locomotives on semi permanent loan or galas etc so they are now able to potentially have a better revenue stream. How this has reflected in the pricing structures of these vehicles I have no idea.

It is good to see. More flexibility.....as the SVR really struggled in the past having air braked only locos on galas unless they were pilot or attached to a rammed set of slam door SR EMU stock.

Cheers

Guy