Vehicles returning to compete with previous owners?

[scosutsut]

Similar to the re-entering fleet discussion, any examples of vehicles being sold on by their operators, only for them to come back to haunt their former owner in service for a direct competitor?

Whether the sale was direct (quite unlikely) or via other parties counts I would say.

Direct Competitor example - three ex Lothian Trident/President open toppers now competing with it's Edinburgh Tours operation that they were used on for years operating on First's Bright Bus Tours.

I was going to include the ex First London(?) B9TL/Wright open toppers doing the same but for Lothian, but don't think that completely counts as they previously operated for a completely different arm of that competitor!

 

[Pat1105]

Not quite competing directly on the same route, but Banga Buses of Wolverhampton used to operate a few ex NXWM solos.

 

[fgwrich]

Likewise on the competing route, but First Kernow recently sold WX05RUA to OTS of Falmouth.

 

[awsnews]

Avondale Coaches had an ex First Glasgow Optare Solo which was used on competing services around Clydebank. They also have some other ex First vehicles from elsewhere, there are several ex Cyrmu MPDs in use as well.

 

[madannie77]

Quite a few operators in the Manchester area used ex Greater Manchester Transport "standard" Fleetlines and Atlanteans in the early years after deregulation. Walls, Mayne, Bullocks, Finglands, Tame Valley and Stotts certainly did, and I seem to think MyBus (was that the name of the company which became UK North?) and Bee Line (after the initial all-minibus phase) did, all of whom competed with GM Buses. Rossendale also used ex GMT buses, but I am not sure if they competed with GM Buses at that time.

In Sheffield Andrews used some of South Yorkshire Transport's ECW bodied Fleetlines.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Surely the most extensive example of this were the raft of ex Greater Manchester Fleetlines and Atlanteans that were disposed of to Kirkby (dealer) and then reappeared with a number of independent operators such as Walls, Maynes and Bullocks as well larger firms as Ribble and Rossendale across the territory.

EDIT: @madannie77 posted whilst I was delayed in typing

 

[GusB]

Surely the most extensive example of this were the raft of ex Greater Manchester Fleetlines and Atlanteans that were disposed of to Kirkby (dealer) and then reappeared with a number of independent operators such as Walls, Maynes and Bullocks as well larger firms as Ribble and Rossendale across the territory.

EDIT: @madannie77 posted whilst I was delayed in typing

Funny you should mention that. I obtained a copy of a Kirkby brochure many years ago (I've no idea how I got hold of it), and it was advertising quite a few former-GM Fleetlines and Altanteans for sale. I reckon this would have been around 1987, or perhaps a little bit later.

A few also ended up with Western Scottish, and Strathclyde had a few on loan (not sure if any remained permanently) after the Larkfield fire.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Funny you should mention that. I obtained a copy of a Kirkby brochure many years ago (I've no idea how I got hold of it), and it was advertising quite a few former-GM Fleetlines and Altanteans for sale. I reckon this would have been around 1987, or perhaps a little bit later.

A few also ended up with Western Scottish, and Strathclyde had a few on loan (not sure if any remained permanently) after the Larkfield fire.

1987 would be right. They ended up everywhere. One of the tools of deregulation.

IIRC, did Fareway (who also ran ex GM Standards) run some ex Merseyside fleet against their original owners.... I'm thinking East Lancs VRs????

 

[madannie77]

Fareway certainly did have some ex Merseyside Bristol VRTs with East Lancs bodies. Not sure how many, though.

 

[DunsBus]

1987 would be right. They ended up everywhere. One of the tools of deregulation.

IIRC, did Fareway (who also ran ex GM Standards) run some ex Merseyside fleet against their original owners.... I'm thinking East Lancs VRs????

If I'm correct, the GM Standards ended up on the market after Greater Manchester Transport was ordered by local politicians to sell its surplus buses on ahead of the changeover to GM Buses. GMT had previously scrapped its withdrawn vehicles, I believe it even went to the extent of cutting through the chassis and wrecking the engines to ensure the buses were fit only for the scrapyard.

 

[madannie77]

A bit of thinking aloud here. When East Midland set up the Frontrunner subsidiary in Essex they had some ex GMT standards. Did any of those buses find their way to the Frontrunner North West operation? I don't recall seeing any, but it is a long time ago!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A bit of thinking aloud here. When East Midland set up the Frontrunner subsidiary in Essex they had some ex GMT standards. Did any of those buses find their way to the Frontrunner North West operation? I don't recall seeing any, but it is a long time ago!

I wondered the same.... looks like a convoluted story after investigating.

Frontrunner NW had VRs, Tigers and Nationals in the main. The ex GM Standards were down in Essex. However, when Stagecoach bought East Midland, they jettisoned the Essex ops to AJS but the vehicles were returned north, ending up with Ribble but running in East Midland green. Some of those then ended up passing with Hulme Hall depot to Bee Line.......

 

[GusB]

A bit of thinking aloud here. When East Midland set up the Frontrunner subsidiary in Essex they had some ex GMT standards. Did any of those buses find their way to the Frontrunner North West operation? I don't recall seeing any, but it is a long time ago!

I've just looked out my (slightly falling apart) Stagecoach fleet handbook from 1992. The blurb about East Midland says:

Finding the Frontrunner South East operation to be too far away from East Midland's main territory, Stagecoach sold this to Ensign Bus of Purfleet on 30 June 1989 along with a quantity of vehicles. These however were quickly exchanged with buses despatched from Ribble who in return gained all the former Frontrunner South East ex.Greater Manchester Atlanteans.

*edit* Beaten to it by TheGrandWazoo!

 

[madannie77]

Thanks for the replies. The whole situation with Ribble, Bee Line, Crosville, C-Line etc left me a bit confused back then, not helped by bus watching taking a bit of a backseat in my life at that time.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks for the replies. The whole situation with Ribble, Bee Line, Crosville, C-Line etc left me a bit confused back then, not helped by bus watching taking a bit of a backseat in my life at that time.

It was all a blur with Drawlane (with honest Dawson Williams), Stagecoach, and the charlatans that were ATL Group who bought Crosville and Yelloway.

 

[A0wen]

Surely the obvious one would be the London Transport DMS, which LT off loaded claiming they were unsuitable for them. Most went via Ensign to other operators some of which bought them and promptly won LRT contracts with them - companies like Len Wright's London Buslines, Ensignbus, Sampson's and Cityrama all did this.

 

[0B00]

In the early 1990's at TAME VALLEY TRAVEL in Birmingham we had ex. WMPTE Fleetlines (6372 & 6726 IIRC), an ex. WMPTE National (6818) - (and maybe 6852/3?) and 2 ex WMPTE Volvos (4740 & 4773) competing against West Midlands Travel.

 

[Geordie driver]

I have a memory that stagecoach, in it early days, used to burn it's older buses to stop them going to competitors, mind, I might have imagined that!

 

[GusB]

I have a memory that stagecoach, in it early days, used to burn it's older buses to stop them going to competitors, mind, I might have imagined that!

There have been plenty examples of former Stagecoach vehicles going on to new homes, so I'm not sure if this was a policy. Could it be that they simply self-combusted?

Back in Scottish Bus Group days, it seems that were efforts among some subsidiaries to prevent vehicles going to other PSV operators. Northern would paint its life-expired stock in grey primer and move it to somewhere like Arbroath where parts would slowly be cannibalised and the resulting carcass eventually going for scrap. Occasionally a vehicle or two would escape the breakers temporarily by being sold on for non-PSV use (berry buses, building contractors and the like). I've seen photos of Midland buses being stripped right down to the chassis. Vehicles like Leopards were often cascaded to other operators (give it to Highland...)

To steer my post back on topic, there was a brief period of time in the late 80s when SBG Engineering Ltd. (formed to take over the major works of SBG companies) ran a small fleet which was hired out to other operators. These vehicles could find themselves on services that competed with their original owners.

 

[MotCO]

I have a memory that stagecoach, in it early days, used to burn it's older buses to stop them going to competitors, mind, I might have imagined that!

Wasn't First who refused to sell any cast off buses for further use?

 

[Stan Drews]

I have a memory that stagecoach, in it early days, used to burn it's older buses to stop them going to competitors, mind, I might have imagined that!

I think you’ve been in lockdown too long!

 

[nctx]

Premiere travel had ex Nct Solos on x1 Whatton to qmc when it started.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Some of Brighton and Hove's Scanias (701-731) were sold to Metrobus (both owned by Go-Ahead), and they regularly turn up on the latter's 271-273 routes from Crawley to Brighton!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Some of Brighton and Hove's Scanias (701-731) were sold to Metrobus (both owned by Go-Ahead), and they regularly turn up on the latter's 271-273 routes from Crawley to Brighton!

I'd question whether that is either competing against, nor with former owners, as Metrobus and B&H are in common ownership and operationally very closely linked.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I'd question whether that is either competing against, nor with former owners, as Metrobus and B&H are in common ownership and operationally very closely linked.

I was thinking more of the competition on the common sections of the route (i.e. Patcham to Brighton city centre), but then as they're both GAG I expect revenue will be shared equally. I don't know, I'm not knowledgeable with the financial side of bus companies.

 

[Hophead]

I'd question whether that is either competing against, nor with former owners, as Metrobus and B&H are in common ownership and operationally very closely linked.

I was thinking more of the competition on the common sections of the route (i.e. Patcham to Brighton city centre), but then as they're both GAG I expect revenue will be shared equally. I don't know, I'm not knowledgeable with the financial side of bus companies.

As I've previously explained elsewhere, the fact that buses run along the same roads does not, in my view, necessarily mean that buses are "competing". And, in this case, TGW has it right as, not only are fares identical between the two operators, but day and longer period tickets are valid on the other operator's buses (Metrovoyagers are valid throughout the Brigton & Hove network; B&H Savers can be used as far as Patcham).

 

[ValleyLines142]

As I've previously explained elsewhere, the fact that buses run along the same roads does not, in my view, necessarily mean that buses are "competing". And, in this case, TGW has it right as, not only are fares identical between the two operators, but day and longer period tickets are valid on the other operator's buses (Metrovoyagers are valid throughout the Brigton & Hove network; B&H Savers can be used as far as Patcham).

Meh, I dunno then. Can't think of any other examples across the country.

 

[sk688]

don’t know if it counts as competing , but I always found it ironic that ex First London e200s and B9TLs are used by Faresaver on their x31 route , on the A4 Bath-Chippenham corridor , which First pulled out of as a result of competition from Faresaver

 

[darloscott]

Up in Teesside a few years ago we had Tees Valley using former Arriva B10Bs and Stagecoach Olympians to compete against their respective former owners.

 

[Statto]

Fareway certainly did have some ex Merseyside Bristol VRTs with East Lancs bodies. Not sure how many, though.

Crosville too had ex Merseyside PTE Fleetlines competing against Merseybus after d-reg, bit of irony, as some of the Fleetlines Crosville brought, were on hire from the PTE to Crosville, based at Heswall depot a couple of years before d-reg