I was very late for my train on Friday, and couldn't find my ticket in my bag so used an oyster card to get through the barriers at Liverpool Street (I had bought it with cash a few days earlier). I showed my ticket to the inspector on the train and must have left it on the table as I could not find it when I was trying to exit the barriers. When the ticket inspector came over I explained that I must have left my ticket on the train. He asked how I got through the barrier and in an attempt to look innocent I said with my ticket- he then took my oyster card but could not find the machine to check it. He then gave me a penalty fare which I paid on the spot. Before this though he called someone and gave them my ID number and my oyster card number. Will this penalty fare be the end of it or will they look into it further and issue me a summons as I used my oyster card at the station? I really cannot afford to have a criminal conviction and am so worried. Please help!!
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Very Nervous
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PermitToTravel
Established Member
Your story isn't very believable and you get 1/10 for the effort, but it sounds like nothing further will come of it unless you are caught again
- Did you later find the ticket?
- What type of ticket was it?
- How did you pay for the ticket?
- Where did you buy the ticket (specifically was it from a machine or ticket office)?
- Were you travelling wholly within the Oyster PAYG area?
If the Oyster history gives them cause for concern they might choose to cancel the Penalty Fare and prosecute you instead. There are too many ifs to delve further into the possibilities other than to say if you want to read more on the legislation see RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 8 - Legal
ian959
Member
If I understand the OP, you used the Oyster to get through the barriers at Liverpool Street, you then found your ticket when you are on the train and when the guard came round checking the tickets you showed the guard your ticket. You then got off the train at your destination but left your ticket on board the train.
Sorry but that makes little sense at all. "Losing" your ticket twice in the space of an hour or so sounds a remarkable coincidence to me. No offence but it sounds like the story of someone who regularly uses the Oyster to access the platform and evades paying the fare because the maximum fare on Oyster is cheaper than the normal fare to you destination.
You are probably lucky that you paid the penalty fare on the spot as that is likely to be the end of the matter. However, as Yorkie says, if they check your Oyster history and it shows this to be a repeated behaviour, you are right to be worried.
Sorry but that makes little sense at all. "Losing" your ticket twice in the space of an hour or so sounds a remarkable coincidence to me. No offence but it sounds like the story of someone who regularly uses the Oyster to access the platform and evades paying the fare because the maximum fare on Oyster is cheaper than the normal fare to you destination.
You are probably lucky that you paid the penalty fare on the spot as that is likely to be the end of the matter. However, as Yorkie says, if they check your Oyster history and it shows this to be a repeated behaviour, you are right to be worried.
Most of the time, if a Penalty Fare is paid in full that will be the end of the matter.
However, if your Oyster history makes it appear like you have been regularly touching in/out only at Liverpool Street and incurring maximum fares, a possible conclusion at which they could arrive is that the other end of your journey was at an unbarriered station some distance away or even outside the Oyster zone.
If you "cannot afford" to have a criminal condition, then cough up for a new ticket if you lose yours.
However, if your Oyster history makes it appear like you have been regularly touching in/out only at Liverpool Street and incurring maximum fares, a possible conclusion at which they could arrive is that the other end of your journey was at an unbarriered station some distance away or even outside the Oyster zone.
If you "cannot afford" to have a criminal condition, then cough up for a new ticket if you lose yours.
Given how many people must be using this trick every day* (apologies if this really isn't someone doing the same) I am sure they're doing more investigations and may well be in the process of doing checks on the Oyster card to look for evidence of repeated attempts to defraud.
It may not be possible to take further action now a PF has been issued and paid, but that doesn't mean they won't do covert monitoring of individuals and perhaps strike later.
So my advice would be to NOT do it again now a possible fraud has been detected.
Again, if this story is genuinely true and a total one off then ignore what I've said and you obviously have nothing to worry about!
* I would have thought more people would seek to use a Z1/2 Travelcard but travel beyond the zones than incur regular maximum fares - but I'm not a revenue officer so can't know what the reality is.
It may not be possible to take further action now a PF has been issued and paid, but that doesn't mean they won't do covert monitoring of individuals and perhaps strike later.
So my advice would be to NOT do it again now a possible fraud has been detected.
Again, if this story is genuinely true and a total one off then ignore what I've said and you obviously have nothing to worry about!
* I would have thought more people would seek to use a Z1/2 Travelcard but travel beyond the zones than incur regular maximum fares - but I'm not a revenue officer so can't know what the reality is.
PermitToTravel
Established Member
It really perplexes me. The travelcard would be far cheaper, even if only bought as weeklies to avoid giving any details
I genuinely believed this side of the forum was for those who wanted advice regarding disputes and prosecutions...
Not someone's rather rude view on their story:
Or even this rather unhelpful view:
I'm well aware that this adds nothing to the discussion, however o do think people need to be aware that posters are generally not seeking your biased views on whether they should or shouldn't have gotten a penalty fare due to you not believing their story.
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Not someone's rather rude view on their story:
Or even this rather unhelpful view:
I'm well aware that this adds nothing to the discussion, however o do think people need to be aware that posters are generally not seeking your biased views on whether they should or shouldn't have gotten a penalty fare due to you not believing their story.
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Strict Liability is essentially guilty unless you can prove your innocence
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Pointing out glaring huge holes in a story is helpful. If we can highlight them, you can bet your bottom dollar the prosecutions team can.
Pointing out that we think a story is a load of baloney is part of the advice.
In this case, using an Oyster card to evade a fare is a well-known trick and TOCs and TfL are wise to it. The last person who thought they could do it ended up paying £43,000 to South Eastern Trains and lost his job.
Pointing out that we think a story is a load of baloney is part of the advice.
In this case, using an Oyster card to evade a fare is a well-known trick and TOCs and TfL are wise to it. The last person who thought they could do it ended up paying £43,000 to South Eastern Trains and lost his job.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's not *quite* true. With most crimes, it's about intent (e.g. for a murder charge to stand you have to have intended to kill, or have intentionally done something which reasonably could be believed to be likely to kill). Whereas a Byelaw prosecution relating to fares requires you only to have done it, it matters not whether you intended to do it or not. So a prosecution would stick if you simply forgot to buy a ticket or renew your Railcard, for instance; the fact that a journey was made without a valid ticket is sufficient.
The requirement to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" remains. It's just that it's much easier to prove that something happened than that you intended for it to happen.
I do see the point, though.
PermitToTravel
Established Member
I do agree with your general point, and honestly do thank you for raising it - this is a board for helping people not slating them.
We need the full facts to do that however. Lying to us isn't ever going to help, and in this case I helped the OP by pointing out the obviousness of her lie.
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