Very short London Bus routes

[frodshamfella]

As a kid I used to study the LT bus map. I lived in SE London / Kent, but that didn't stop me studying other areas covered on the map. I noticed there were some very short bus routes, one in particular the 248A Upminster to Corbets Tey, peak hour service. Taking 6 minutes to do the whole route. Is there anything like this now, any memories welcomed also. Thanks

 

[aswilliamsuk]

London bus routes (http://www.londonbusroutes.net/details.htm) has full details and lengths of routes.

One of the shortest has to be the 327, at less than 3km (a Waltham Cross circular that takes about 13 minutes one way and 25 to do the full loop back to Waltham Cross). The H2 (Hampstead Garden Suburb circular) runs every 12 minutes and is similarly short.

Of double-decker routes, I'd suggest the W7 is the undisputed champion here - just 4km in length, runs every five minutes and has loadings per km up at the top of the usage charts every year (files aren't loading from https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/buses-performance-data at the moment, otherwise I'd note exactly what it was for 2023/2024!).

 

[stevieinselby]

The 359 used to be one of the shortest, with a route distance of 3½ miles from Selsdon to Addington by way of Monks Hill and a running time of 12 minutes end-to-end, operating a half-hourly service Monday to Saturday off-peak only using a single bus.
In 2011, the running time was extended to 14 minutes, and the frequency reduced to every 35 minutes.
The in 2016, it was doubled in length by extending it to Purley, and the service increased to every 30 minutes from 0700 to 2000, 7 days a week, and more recently that frequency reduced to about every 45 minutes where it remains now.

 

[ls2270]

Three other very short routes (possibly the shortest) are local routes 379 in Chingford, 399 in Barnet and R9 in Orpington, all of which are only around 2 miles long.

 

[greenline712]

Back in the 1970s, a new route 288 was introduced from Edgware to the Broadfields estate, north of the Edgware bypass. 3.2 miles in length, a bus was provided every 20 minutes; initially with a SMS Swift and later with a double-deck Metrobus, but in late 1990 it was converted to midibus (DT) operation. The route was, in 1993, extended to Queensbury as part of the shortening of Route 107.

I drove the route between 1990 and 1992 . . . initially in a decker; this was part of a duty with Route 186 (I think); the Agreement prevented drivers from doing more than 9 rounders in one spell. Upon midibus conversion, the duties were changed, such that most duties comprised 12-15 rounders in a spell; as each rounder was 15 minutes and 5 minutes stand time and spell time was 5h30m, this was legal, but horrendous!! On the late duty, we started at 1840, and finished at 2335 . . . 15 rounders!! After about 2000, it was possible to drive the route in around 12 minutes, as passenger numbers usually totalled less than 5 per rounder!

The only way to stay sane was to depart 5 minutes late on alternate trips, drive slowly, so as to get back about 1 minute before the next trip, then drive at a good speed to arrive back 5 minutes early . . . giving 15 minutes in the canteen before starting again. After 2200, the canteen was closed, so we just sat on the bus. The point Inspector knew what we were up to, and "fudged" his departure and arrival log to make it look reasonable!! As I was on the spare list, I often ended up doing the late duty; once for 7 consecutive days . . . on one occasion, I was asked to work a rest day on this duty on what would've been the 8th consecutive day . . . unsurprisingly, I declined!!

 

[ian1944]

Did there not used to be a short route from Richmond up the hill?

 

[Magdalia]

I worked a lot of my career in the Westminster-Victoria area which had the Red Arrow 507 running between Waterloo and Victoria via Lambeth Bridge, a distance that's probably less than 2 miles.

For a while there was also the C10 between Victoria and Elephant and Castle.

 

[greenline712]

Did there not used to be a short route from Richmond up the hill?

Route 235 . . . one of the routes given up in the 1960s, it became worked by Continental Pioneer Coaches, based at the former goods yard in Richmond. Originally operated by an RT, it was converted to OMO and operated by an eclectic collection of buses and coaches until closure sometime in the 1980s?

Incidentally, the yard at CP was an early preservation base for many ex LT buses in the 1970s, as well as the well-known bus dealer Ted Brakell.

If you search "continental pioneer" on Flickr . . . you'll understand the term "eclectic" . . . !!

 

[01d-and]

Victoria Coach Station to Victoria Railway Station shuttle. ??

 

[Bishopstone]

As the OP mentioned Upminster... until March of last year the 346 ran Upminster Station - Upminster Park Estate, with a one-way journey taking less than 10 minutes at quieter times of the day, albeit the route operated as a loop. The 346 has since been extended considerably, to Harold Hill, so is no longer a contender.

 

[Sussexwatch]

As the OP mentioned Upminster... until March of last year the 346 ran Upminster Station - Upminster Park Estate, with a one-way journey taking less than 10 minutes at quieter times of the day, albeit the route operated as a loop. The 346 has since been extended considerably, to Harold Hill, so is no longer a contender.

Upminster has quite a history of short routes. In RLH days (1955-1970) the 248 ran from Hall Lane to Cranham with an end to end running time of 11 minutes and there were regular short workings between Cranham and Upminster station taking just 7 minutes. Before the 248A was introduced in 1959, the 249 ran from Upminster Park Estate, Front Lane to Corbets Tey via Hall Lane with a running time of 12 minutes. The Upminster Park Estate leg was replaced by extending the the 86A and then 86 from Upminster Station which ran on to Bow and Limehouse, then one of the longest routes in East London.

 

[frodshamfella]

I think there was a route between Plumstead Woodlands Estate and Woolwich, possibly the 241, (but i may have the wrong number) which was quite short. Before that it was the 192 and that went from the estate to Lewisham,.so quite a bit longer. Although the 192 only went as far as Woolwich too initially.

 

[700007]

I am sure route 389 (which interworks with also short, and quietest, 399) is the shortest route in London I think. Goes from The Spires down to Western Way up in High Barnet and takes all of about 7 minutes to do a typical trip (I think around 2 miles).

Also worthy for nomination are the E1 and H37. The latter is not a proper contender for short-'est' route but it is very short nonetheless. Trip easily takes 20-25 minutes off peak.

Going back quite a few years you had the T32 down in Addington that was for many years I believe officially the shortest route in London. You also had the short lived 497 route that was not long in nature either.

 

[frodshamfella]

There was a route 151 Lewisham to Kidbrook Ferries Estate, operated a one way circle around the estate. Used RTs then Routemasters 1972 to 1981

 

[Bishopstone]

I recall - we're talking late 90s/early noughties - a minibus route through the Rotherhithe Tunnel. Something like Shadwell - Surrey Quays, so it didn't extend far on either bank of the Thames. Mercedes Sprinter type vehicles, I think, that only just squeezed through the tunnel width restrictions.

But 25 years on, I'm now questioning whether this was a regular bus route or the rail replacement service associated with the East London line blockade for long-term engineering work. Anyone remember?

 

[TrenHotel]

I recall - we're talking late 90s/early noughties - a minibus route through the Rotherhithe Tunnel. Something like Shadwell - Surrey Quays, so it didn't extend far on either bank of the Thames. Mercedes Sprinter type vehicles, I think, that only just squeezed through the tunnel width restrictions.

But 25 years on, I'm now questioning whether this was a regular bus route or the rail replacement service associated with the East London line blockade for long-term engineering work. Anyone remember?

Route 395 - it was a normal bus service. Replaced the P14, which ran through the tunnel for about a decade.

I think there was a route between Plumstead Woodlands Estate and Woolwich, possibly the 241, (but i may have the wrong number) which was quite short. Before that it was the 192 and that went from the estate to Lewisham,.so quite a bit longer. Although the 192 only went as far as Woolwich too initially.

You’re thinking of the 291, which still runs today (but is a bit longer).

The 244 was very short in the late 80s, Woolwich to the Broadwater Estate in West Thamesmead.

 

[londonbridge]

233A? Ran from the old Roundshaw Neighbourhood Centre to Wallington Station, only on Saturdays.

 

[Roger1973]

A few minor points -

Lewisham - Kidbrooke route 151 went OPO in the big 'busplan' scheme in April 1978 (along with a number of other SE London routes including 89 and 192) - one of the factors to this was that the Rennell Street terminus in Lewisham wasn't really suitable for OPO buses, and front entrance buses would not have been able to turn right out of Molesworth Street then call at the stops opposite Lewisham Odeon. The opening of (the 1978 incarnation of) Lewisham Bus Station resolved this.

There was a single deck route 256, Woolwich - Shooters Hill, introduced in 1954, which was extended through to Lewisham and became 89A in 1955.

A service between Woolwich and Plumstead, Woodlands Estate was introduced in 1956 as route 192. 192 was extended to Lewisham and 89A withdrawn in 1959.

291 replaced 151 and 192 in 1981, then the 178 (previously just Woolwich - Thamesmead) took over the Lewisham end of 291 in 1984. 291 became Woolwich - Woodlands Estate, and buses generally inter-worked with 244 (Woolwich - Broadwater) which led to some unusual blind displays so that only one blind had to be changed at the Woolwich end.

Much from Ian Armstrong's London Bus Route Histories website (page on route 256 here.)

 

[RELL6L]

The 100 from Barking to Beckton gas works was very short and, at irregular times, very frequent. It ran off the 15 and was withdrawn in the early 1970s which I assume was when the gas works closed.

 

[aron2smith]

I've ridden every London bus route and most short routes are around the edges of London but I rode 2 routes in Mortlake in zone 3 that made me laugh, the 209 and 378 were barely 10 minutes end to end each. Couldn't believe they were separate routes. The 378 only goes to Putney Bridge! The E1 - Ealing to Greenford Broadway was very short for a double deck route, not even 20 minutes end to end. H2 and H3 I remember were short around Golders Green.

But many of the short bus routes around the edges of London annoy me. 379, Chingford - why can't this go to Waltham Abbey and Waltham Cross?!
Why can't the 389/399 or the wider Barnet bus network be adjusted so just 1 bus route that is based out of Potters Bar Garage can actually provide a regular Potters Bar to Barnet service, buses are driving on those roads out of service anyway, just provide a passenger service! The 84B is a ridiculously short route itself that don't make a lot of sense as a standalone route and would be better if incorporated into a longer route.
327 - Waltham Cross and Bullsmoor another stupidly short route that would be a lot more useful if it was extended to Brookfield Centre in Cheshunt.

And probably not in the same scope but the 317 (Enfield to Waltham Cross) and 215 (Walthamstow to Lea Valley Campsite) seem on a shorter side with many off peak and quieter journeys timed at taking 20 to 30 minutes, no reason TFL and Essex couldn't figure out funding and have both serve Waltham Abbey which is not far from either Waltham Cross or Lea Valley Campsite.

 

[RS465]

But many of the short bus routes around the edges of London annoy me. 379, Chingford - why can't this go to Waltham Abbey and Waltham Cross?!

And probably not in the same scope but the 317 (Enfield to Waltham Cross) and 215 (Walthamstow to Lea Valley Campsite) seem on a shorter side with many off peak and quieter journeys timed at taking 20 to 30 minutes, no reason TFL and Essex couldn't figure out funding and have both serve Waltham Abbey which is not far from either Waltham Cross or Lea Valley Campsite.

The lack of bus route from Waltham Abbey to Chingford is just shocking. Getting between the two places without a car is ridiculously hard and both areas have significant populations. I’m surprised how little this link is campaigned for.

Obviously Waltham Abbey is beyond TFL’s remit, which is probably the argument for no bus service, but this calls into question the cross border coverage of other towns and villages just outside London. E.g. Brentwood, Swanley, Potters Bar, Tatsfield, Westerham, all of which receive no funding from their respective county councils.

The 385 runs near the border at a frequency of every 70 minutes during shopping hours and could be easily rejigged to provide such link. Ideally the 215 would extend from Sewardstone up to Waltham Abbey town centre.

I think if the 505 didn’t last for so long, the link would still be there.

 

[aron2smith]

The lack of bus route from Waltham Abbey to Chingford is just shocking. Getting between the two places without a car is ridiculously hard and both areas have significant populations. I’m surprised how little this link is campaigned for.

Obviously Waltham Abbey is beyond TFL’s remit, which is probably the argument for no bus service, but this calls into question the cross border coverage of other towns and villages just outside London. E.g. Brentwood, Swanley, Potters Bar, Tatsfield, Westerham, all of which receive no funding from their respective county councils.

The 385 runs near the border at a frequency of every 70 minutes during shopping hours and could be easily rejigged to provide such link. Ideally the 215 would extend from Sewardstone up to Waltham Abbey town centre.

I think if the 505 didn’t last for so long, the link would still be there.

Given the fairly short distance between Lea Valley Campsite and Farm Hill Road. Just 2.3 miles! It shouldn't be about who's patch or who's responsible for it? It's a distance any bus could cover quite easily, it could probably cover that section in 10 minutes as it would rarely stop inbetween. But then again when I've used the 215, I've noticed people who seem to live in Sewardstone walk to the campsite to catch the 215 so demand must exist. Other than the village, there are pubs, care homes and the Gunpowder Park plus Waltham Abbey, which has 23000 people. The demand for buses there would be decent had it not been left to the whims of the private operators.

https://www.change.org/p/bring-tfl-buses-back-to-waltham-abbey-fix-our-inadequate-public-transport
A petition attracted over 1500 signatures, enough for the London Assembly to vote on it and they supported it. Now it's on both TFL and Essex to come to an agreement, why this isn't straight forward is beyond me. Does Essex help fund any TFL routes at all, Loughton and Debden get the 20, 167, 397 and the W14 (formerly 549) was recently enhanced to an hourly service, extended to Whipps Cross and now also runs on Sundays. Only the Loughton/ Debden town service and 66 are non-TFL there. This is in the same district as Waltham Abbey and no reason, it shouldn't receive the same treatment. Your idea on the 385 really shows any number of possibilities could easily fix this issue which show how useless our politicians really are.

It's not like it has to cross a bridge and the bridge collapsed, it is a normal road which can get quite busy that just happens to cross some arbitrary line we made up. Also quite right to mention the other cross-border towns, it really should be consistent, so every town up to 5 miles or so from the London boundary received a TFL service, would hopefully fix the anomaly of Potters Bar which has a large bus garage but few of the routes actually serve the town. Go to Cuffley or the road to Barnet, almost always an out of service TFL bus going through the area at seemingly any time of day, how can that be right?

 

[frodshamfella]

Route 395 - it was a normal bus service. Replaced the P14, which ran through the tunnel for about a decade.


You’re thinking of the 291, which still runs today (but is a bit longer).

The 244 was very short in the late 80s, Woolwich to the Broadwater Estate in West Thamesmead.

Right, thanks, I wasn't sure of the number.

 

[Deerfold]

Going back quite a few years you had the T32 down in Addington that was for many years I believe officially the shortest route in London. You also had the short lived 497 route that was not long in nature either.

For the whole life of the T32, the 389 existed.

 

[aron2smith]

The lack of bus route from Waltham Abbey to Chingford is just shocking. Getting between the two places without a car is ridiculously hard and both areas have significant populations. I’m surprised how little this link is campaigned for.

Obviously Waltham Abbey is beyond TFL’s remit, which is probably the argument for no bus service, but this calls into question the cross border coverage of other towns and villages just outside London. E.g. Brentwood, Swanley, Potters Bar, Tatsfield, Westerham, all of which receive no funding from their respective county councils.

The 385 runs near the border at a frequency of every 70 minutes during shopping hours and could be easily rejigged to provide such link. Ideally the 215 would extend from Sewardstone up to Waltham Abbey town centre.

I think if the 505 didn’t last for so long, the link would still be there.

Given the fairly short distance between Lea Valley Campsite and Farm Hill Road. Just 2.3 miles! It shouldn't be about who's patch or who's responsible for it? It's a distance any bus could cover quite easily, it could probably cover that section in 10 minutes as it would rarely stop inbetween. But then again when I've used the 215, I've noticed people who seem to live in Sewardstone walk to the campsite to catch the 215 so demand must exist. Other than the village, there are pubs, care homes and the Gunpowder Park plus Waltham Abbey, which has 23000 people. The demand for buses there would be decent had it not been left to the whims of the private operators.

https://www.change.org/p/bring-tfl-buses-back-to-waltham-abbey-fix-our-inadequate-public-transport
A petition attracted over 1500 signatures, enough for the London Assembly to vote on it and they supported it. Now it's on both TFL and Essex to come to an agreement, why this isn't straight forward is beyond me. Does Essex help fund any TFL routes at all, Loughton and Debden get the 20, 167, 397 and the W14 (formerly 549) was recently enhanced to an hourly service, extended to Whipps Cross and now also runs on Sundays. Only the Loughton/ Debden town service and 66 are non-TFL there. This is in the same district as Waltham Abbey and no reason, it shouldn't receive the same treatment. Your idea on the 385 really shows any number of possibilities could easily fix this issue which show how useless our politicians really are.

It's not like it has to cross a bridge and the bridge collapsed, it is a normal road which can get quite busy that just happens to cross some arbitrary line we made up. Also quite right to mention the other cross-border towns, it really should be consistent, so every town up to 5 miles or so from the London boundary received a TFL service, would hopefully fix the anomaly of Potters Bar which has a large bus garage but few of the routes actually serve the town. Go to Cuffley or the road to Barnet, almost always an out of service TFL bus going through the area at seemingly any time of day, how can that be right?

 

[Deerfold]

The lack of bus route from Waltham Abbey to Chingford is just shocking. Getting between the two places without a car is ridiculously hard and both areas have significant populations. I’m surprised how little this link is campaigned for.

Obviously Waltham Abbey is beyond TFL’s remit, which is probably the argument for no bus service, but this calls into question the cross border coverage of other towns and villages just outside London. E.g. Brentwood, Swanley, Potters Bar, Tatsfield, Westerham, all of which receive no funding from their respective county councils.

The 84B from Potters Bar to High Barnet gets funding from Hertsmere Council.

Given the fairly short distance between Lea Valley Campsite and Farm Hill Road. Just 2.3 miles! It shouldn't be about who's patch or who's responsible for it? It's a distance any bus could cover quite easily, it could probably cover that section in 10 minutes as it would rarely stop inbetween. But then again when I've used the 215, I've noticed people who seem to live in Sewardstone walk to the campsite to catch the 215 so demand must exist. Other than the village, there are pubs, care homes and the Gunpowder Park plus Waltham Abbey, which has 23000 people. The demand for buses there would be decent had it not been left to the whims of the private operators.

https://www.change.org/p/bring-tfl-buses-back-to-waltham-abbey-fix-our-inadequate-public-transport
A petition attracted over 1500 signatures, enough for the London Assembly to vote on it and they supported it. Now it's on both TFL and Essex to come to an agreement, why this isn't straight forward is beyond me. Does Essex help fund any TFL routes at all, Loughton and Debden get the 20, 167, 397 and the W14 (formerly 549) was recently enhanced to an hourly service, extended to Whipps Cross and now also runs on Sundays. Only the Loughton/ Debden town service and 66 are non-TFL there. This is in the same district as Waltham Abbey and no reason, it shouldn't receive the same treatment. Your idea on the 385 really shows any number of possibilities could easily fix this issue which show how useless our politicians really are.

It's not like it has to cross a bridge and the bridge collapsed, it is a normal road which can get quite busy that just happens to cross some arbitrary line we made up. Also quite right to mention the other cross-border towns, it really should be consistent, so every town up to 5 miles or so from the London boundary received a TFL service, would hopefully fix the anomaly of Potters Bar which has a large bus garage but few of the routes actually serve the town. Go to Cuffley or the road to Barnet, almost always an out of service TFL bus going through the area at seemingly any time of day, how can that be right?

Where commercial cross-border services finished, the main criterion as to whether TfL replaced them seemed to be how much money TfL had at the time. So, as time has gone on, fewer and fewer have been replaced.

 

[Tom B]

Why can't the 389/399 or the wider Barnet bus network be adjusted so just 1 bus route that is based out of Potters Bar Garage can actually provide a regular Potters Bar to Barnet service, buses are driving on those roads out of service anyway, just provide a passenger service! The 84B is a ridiculously short route itself that don't make a lot of sense as a standalone route and would be better if incorporated into a longer route.

The 84B is a temporary route funded by Hertsmere and whether it continues will depend upon whether anybody is willing to pay for it. Given that the passenger numbers on this vital link are so low, and even fewer of those actually pay a fare, I amn't sure if this will happen. However, the 84B does duplicate the majority of the 389 - it goes down to where the football stadium isn't, before turning back and going to Barnet General.

 

[aron2smith]

The 84B is a temporary route funded by Hertsmere and whether it continues will depend upon whether anybody is willing to pay for it. Given that the passenger numbers on this vital link are so low, and even fewer of those actually pay a fare, I amn't sure if this will happen. However, the 84B does duplicate the majority of the 389 - it goes down to where the football stadium isn't, before turning back and going to Barnet General.

Well I think the council would be really stupid and foolish to axe it again, the 84B gets alright ridership for what is little more than a shuttle. Barnet to Potters Bar is just 2 miles! Took it again today at 3:50pm, I was one of 5 who went to Barnet on it, another person used it for a short town journey. It ran short today due to roadworks so I was on it at Barnet General Hospital, I saw 7 people board it to go back to Potters Bar. I ride the 84B every other week at different times and what I saw today seems a fairly typical loading.

Do our journeys not matter? This is better than nearly all DRT schemes, many of those are lucky to pick up more than 1 person per trip if that and many DRTs fail within a couple years. More people use this in morning rush hour for the tube than you think plus the 2 hospitals on its route, it's very important for the link to remain. It's a real shame the gap between Barnet and Potters Bar isn't covered by a longer route (Potters Bar to Finchley or Brent Cross for example) and ideally could match TFL's fares. TFL should be running all the cross-boundary routes, they run enough of them but not every route is covered unfortunately and this must change, starting with Chingford to Waltham Abbey. The 298 and 313 both run out of Potters Bar and have the full all day, every day TFL timetables we'd expect, they are far from running empty even at quiet times.

Having been on buses, both franchised and deregulated across the country, it's clear the places people say as having good bus networks have one thing in common. The system or nearly the whole system is run by one really dominant operator, which allows for stability of the network. Buses like all public transport is a delicate balance of sorts. Take away the supposedly quiet routes and the whole network suffers. It should just be allowed to exist and be extensive and comprehensive, not restricted by petty county boundaries or arguments over funding. I live in Cheshunt and they recently restored the 242 so every bus goes to Potters Bar once again, it may look quiet but the service clearly provides a social need and importantly connects 2 towns together that would have no connection at all otherwise despite being just 6 miles apart, it's a lot easier to go to towns west of me now. These things matter and I'm frankly fed up with people claiming low ridership is a good reason to cut a bus service, all that does is isolate people and reduce choice which hits the economy. We tried this approach it made the country worse. In Japan, they kept a rail station open for only 1 person who needed it, we should be like that. Growing up in London, I heard 'every journey matters' for years and years as a kid, this is the right way of looking at it. Every journey matters everywhere!

 

[Class15]

The H2 (Hampstead Garden Suburb circular) runs every 12 minutes

That must have been changed very recently. It used to be hourly or something like that.

 

[aron2smith]

The 84B from Potters Bar to High Barnet gets funding from Hertsmere Council.


Where commercial cross-border services finished, the main criterion as to whether TfL replaced them seemed to be how much money TfL had at the time. So, as time has gone on, fewer and fewer have been replaced.

What I fail to understand is why Waltham Abbey was cut out of London's bus network after deregulation at all. Yes it falls outside of London (just!) but London Transport ran all the buses there regardless for many decades. Unlike my town of Cheshunt which was mainly green Country buses (the 310 number is still used here), Waltham Abbey was nearly all red buses. I have a 1981 London bus map, Waltham Abbey had buses to Enfield (217B), Wood Green (217), Potters Bar, Cheshunt and Chingford (242) and the bus to Loughton went on to Grange Hill in Hainault (250). The town may have been on the edge but was clearly no afterthought and was covered properly, it being severed from what is now TFL continues to make no sense! A historical injustice really. What further shows the unfairness of it all, similar towns like Borehamwood still get the 292 to Rossington Avenue and is still served by the 107, Watford Junction is still served by the 142 and 258. Many examples like this around London, where one neighbouring town managed to keep its red buses but the other didn't for some unclear reason.

That must have been changed very recently. It used to be hourly or something like that.

H3 is the one that runs hourly and only from 7am to 3pm. Very unusual for London. According to the wiki, H2 started as apart of dial a ride but is now a regular route. Cute little buses on both routes.