Victoria Line Extension to Stratford?

[fandroid]

Having family in Walthamstow I know the area quite well. One issue that's been around a long time is the poor transport connections from the East side of the Lea Valley to Stratford, place that's grown dramatically as a destination since the 2012 Olympics and the opening of Westfield. Also it's a staging post to huge numbers of jobs in Docklands. A normal argument against extending a busy Tube line is that it would increase overcrowding near Central London. However, I suspect a Stratford extension would add next to no passengers to loadings from Finsbury Park southwards as there are better ways of getting to those destinations. Pros, cons, technical and operational issues please

 

[Snow1964]

It is aligned wrongly, would end up going nearer Whipps Cross and Leytonstone. Would cost a fortune. Don’t forget the Victoria line was cut back to Walthamstow Hoe Street to save money (for many years the proposals included one more station)

Much simpler to reinstate the curve at Hall Farm to let Chingford trains to Continue via Lea Valley to Stratford. However adding extra platforms at Stratford for terminating trains from north would be a squeeze.

The Docklands Light railway extension to Stratford International possibly should have got further extensions as the area north of Stratford got redeveloped. The Lee Valley different goods yards in the past means that the formation is often 10-15 tracks wide, and whilst some has been sold off, possibly could have slotted a DLR route in there on disused trackbed towards southern Walthamstow, or to reach the former Clapton Station yard to build an interchange.

 

[A0]

It is aligned wrongly, would end up going nearer Whipps Cross and Leytonstone. Would cost a fortune. Don’t forget the Victoria line was cut back to Walthamstow Hoe Street to save money (for many years the proposals included one more station)

Much simpler to reinstate the curve at Hall Farm to let Chingford trains to Continue via Lea Valley to Stratford. However adding extra platforms at Stratford for terminating trains from north would be a squeeze.

The Docklands Light railway extension to Stratford International possibly should have got further extensions as the area north of Stratford got redeveloped. The Lee Valley different goods yards in the past means that the formation is often 10-15 tracks wide, and whilst some has been sold off, possibly could have slotted a DLR route in there on disused trackbed towards southern Walthamstow, or to reach the former Clapton Station yard to build an interchange.

Surely the easiest thing would be to put another station on the Central Line near where it crosses the Gospel Oak - Barking line ?

Leytonstone High Road is only about 100m from the Central line.

That would provide a 1change link from Walthamstow to Stratford.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

It is aligned wrongly, would end up going nearer Whipps Cross and Leytonstone. Would cost a fortune. Don’t forget the Victoria line was cut back to Walthamstow Hoe Street to save money (for many years the proposals included one more station)

Much simpler to reinstate the curve at Hall Farm to let Chingford trains to Continue via Lea Valley to Stratford. However adding extra platforms at Stratford for terminating trains from north would be a squeeze.

The Docklands Light railway extension to Stratford International possibly should have got further extensions as the area north of Stratford got redeveloped. The Lee Valley different goods yards in the past means that the formation is often 10-15 tracks wide, and whilst some has been sold off, possibly could have slotted a DLR route in there on disused trackbed towards southern Walthamstow, or to reach the former Clapton Station yard to build an interchange.

Any extension of the Victoria Line should be to Leytonstone, not Stratford, would be roughly two miles long and would be very popular with people living in Woodford, Wanstead and Leytonstone.

The recent development of the south side of Walthamstow Central makes a new turn back platform impracticable. The level crossing at Highams Park rules out additional trains through there, so trains arriving from Stratford would have to be turned back at Wood Street, and that would would require some very smart railway work every day given the frequency of trains to and from Chingford!

 

[NSE]

I know Woodford has often been semi-proposed as an extension for a Central Line interchange. Similar to murmurings about going south from
Brixton to Herne Hill

 

[fandroid]

Any extension of the Victoria Line should be to Leytonstone, not Stratford, would be roughly two miles long and would be very popular with people living in Woodford, Wanstead and Leytonstone.

A Victoria Line extension to Stratford doesn't preclude a station at Leytonstone. I think Stratford is an essential terminus as it provides such extensive connections to other desirable destinations, whereas stopping at Leytonstone provides far fewer. The intension of my theoretical exercise was to give Lea Valley east-siders as far north as Chingford better connections in a southward direction.

A DLR extension north from Stratford international would possibly have been more desirable, but it's very densely developed around there, with north-south roads being seriously undersized and congested, so there's no space for anything on the surface through the heart of where people actually live, as opposed to the more open western edge near to the River Lea.

 

[D365]

Has a northern Victoria extension been proposed to anywhere but Woodford or Leytonstone?

 

[fandroid]

A cheaper alternative that I toy with when I've got the crayons out is an interchange station on Walthamstow marshes where the Chingford line crosses the Lea Valley line between Tottenham Hale and Lea Bridge. The service frequencies on those lines match, both being 4 tph. It would be a bit lonely out there though, on a dark night, as there's no local housing at all. However, it might be popular for leisure users accessing the Lea Valley Park at the weekend.

 

[Bald Rick]

However adding extra platforms at Stratford for terminating trains from north would be a squeeze.

More than a squeeze - it’s not possible, at least not without buying the land to be used for the ‘MSG’ event venue, and building a new bridge over HS1.

A cheaper alternative that I toy with when I've got the crayons out is an interchange station on Walthamstow marshes where the Chingford line crosses the Lea Valley line between Tottenham Hale and Lea Bridge. The service frequencies on those lines match, both being 4 tph. It would be a bit lonely out there though, on a dark night, as there's no local housing at all. However, it might be popular for leisure users accessing the Lea Valley Park at the weekend.

All the land round there is spoken for, for Crossrail 2. The portal will be right next to the intersection bridge.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I know Woodford has often been semi-proposed as an extension for a Central Line interchange. Similar to murmurings about going south from
Brixton to Herne Hill

Extending to Herne Hill Station would lead to massive overcrowding; any southern extension ideally would be a balloon loop with maybe a single double ended station at Brixton Water lane / Brixton Hill which would pick up much of the north south bus routes into Brixton. But a pretty much a pipe dream...

 

[Peter Sarf]

A Victoria Line extension to Stratford doesn't preclude a station at Leytonstone. I think Stratford is an essential terminus as it provides such extensive connections to other desirable destinations, whereas stopping at Leytonstone provides far fewer. The intension of my theoretical exercise was to give Lea Valley east-siders as far north as Chingford better connections in a southward direction.

A DLR extension north from Stratford international would possibly have been more desirable, but it's very densely developed around there, with north-south roads being seriously undersized and congested, so there's no space for anything on the surface through the heart of where people actually live, as opposed to the more open western edge near to the River Lea.

Don't want to see the Victoria line bent round on itself or a fork at the end. I think more straight forward is to extend the Jubilee line onwards to intersect with the Victoria line and the West Anglia line. All tunnel and a new terminus. DLR might be an alternative.

Extending to Herne Hill Station would lead to massive overcrowding; any southern extension ideally would be a balloon loop with maybe a single double ended station at Brixton Water lane / Brixton Hill which would pick up much of the north south bus routes into Brixton. But a pretty much a pipe dream...

Reminds me of the option to extend the Bakerloo line down the Hayes branch. I am in love with that idea of yore.

 

[Basil Jet]

A cheaper alternative that I toy with when I've got the crayons out is an interchange station on Walthamstow marshes where the Chingford line crosses the Lea Valley line between Tottenham Hale and Lea Bridge. The service frequencies on those lines match, both being 4 tph. It would be a bit lonely out there though, on a dark night, as there's no local housing at all. However, it might be popular for leisure users accessing the Lea Valley Park at the weekend.

Telling people to change at Tottenham Hale is cheaper (if coming from Walthamstow itself).

 

[fandroid]

Don't want to see the Victoria line bent round on itself or a fork at the end. I think more straight forward is to extend the Jubilee line onwards to intersect with the Victoria line and the West Anglia line. All tunnel and a new terminus. DLR might be an alternative.

Objecting to curves on a line where it's attempting to follow demand is a bit "purist mappist"! I don't know if people appreciate that the Victoria Line has already bent to point in a south-easterly direction at its existing terminus. However, I'd accept a Jubilee extension to Walthamstow Central as suitable alternative to meet the same potential demand. Don't forget that getting the Jubilee to go underground at Stratford would probably involve massive alterations there to the existing Jubilee station. A new Victoria Line underground terminus there is likely to be easier to squeeze in.

Telling people to change at Tottenham Hale is cheaper (if coming from Walthamstow itself).

Accepted. But it does involve two deep escalator journeys and no step-free access at Walthamstow. - A problem that's not easy to solve.

 

[duncanp]

Objecting to curves on a line where it's attempting to follow demand is a bit "purist mappist"! I don't know if people appreciate that the Victoria Line has already bent to point in a south-easterly direction at its existing terminus. However, I'd accept a Jubilee extension to Walthamstow Central as suitable alternative to meet the same potential demand. Don't forget that getting the Jubilee to go underground at Stratford would probably involve massive alterations there to the existing Jubilee station. A new Victoria Line underground terminus there is likely to be easier to squeeze in.


Accepted. But it does involve two deep escalator journeys and no step-free access at Walthamstow. - A problem that's not easy to solve.

Walthamstow Central would have to be completely rebuilt if the Jubilee Line were to be extended there, as it can barely cope with current demand since the post 2015 increases to services on the Victoria Line. With trains every 1 minute or less at peak times, there is congestion at the bottom of the escalators, which is frequently not cleared by the time the next train arrives.

A better terminus would be Tottenham Hale, to connect with Crossrail 2 and the Stansted Express.

But we all know that there isn't a cat in hells chance of any extension of the Jubilee line Northwards from Stratford, so in the short term an increase in service frequency between Tottenham Hale and Stratford via Lea Bridge is more realistic.

Perhaps it would also be possible to reinstate the Hall Farm curve and divert the some (say 50%) of the Chingford to Liverpool Street trains to run via Stratford. This would maintain links to Clapton and Hackney Downs, and also provide the required links to Stratford, without increasing traffic over the Highams Park level crossing.

To compensate for the loss of service at Clapton, perhaps some of the existing trains from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street could be made to stop there, thus providing a link which is missing at the moment. It is ridiculous that there is no direct service from Tottenham Hale to Clapton.

 

[43096]

Surely the easiest thing would be to put another station on the Central Line near where it crosses the Gospel Oak - Barking line ?

Leytonstone High Road is only about 100m from the Central line.

That would provide a 1change link from Walthamstow to Stratford.

There’s already a one change link between Walthamstow and Stratford: Victoria line to Greater Anglia at Tottenham Hale.

 

[cle]

I don't think the Victoria line has much capacity to go onwards at the northern end either (the southern is often debunked) - the Central line traffic would massively overwhelm it, and every station north of Kings Cross is a railhead interchange and gets feed all day. Meridian Water and all those developments will ostensibly continue to feed the Vic even more.

Hall Farm - people don't seem to like so much - but I would think that 2-4tph Overground extended to Chingford would cover a few things off. Chingford and Walthamstow to Stratford journeys (maybe trim Chingford-Liverpool St to even 3tph and get that third Cambridge) - and sends some trains through Stratford via terminating them. Lea Bridge would have a great metro service, build more and more housing until between there and Stratford looks like Bladerunner.

 

[Basil Jet]

I don't think the Victoria line has much capacity to go onwards at the northern end either (the southern is often debunked) - the Central line traffic would massively overwhelm it, and every station north of Kings Cross is a railhead interchange and gets feed all day. Meridian Water and all those developments will ostensibly continue to feed the Vic even more.

Hall Farm - people don't seem to like so much - but I would think that 2-4tph Overground extended to Chingford would cover a few things off. Chingford and Walthamstow to Stratford journeys (maybe trim Chingford-Liverpool St to even 3tph and get that third Cambridge) - and sends some trains through Stratford via terminating them. Lea Bridge would have a great metro service, build more and more housing until between there and Stratford looks like Bladerunner.

The bizarre reports that London Overground were looking to take over running Lea Bridge, Northumberland Park and Meridian Water start to make sense if the Stratford - Chingford service shared diagrams with the Stratford - Meridian Water service.

 

[Bald Rick]

The bizarre reports that London Overground were looking to take over running Lea Bridge, Northumberland Park and Meridian Water start to make sense if the Stratford - Chingford service shared diagrams with the Stratford - Meridian Water service.

Unfortunately, it’s not possible to do this without a rebuild of that side of Stratford station. And I’m not even sure that is possible.

 

[DanNCL]

Extending either the Jubilee or North London Lines from Stratford would require a complete rebuild of the station. The DLR station at International faces the wrong way for an easy extension to Walthamstow, although the DLR can handle very sharp curves so that issue could possibly be overcome without having to rebuild the station.

I think realistically the only options are a new Central line station at Leytonstone High Road for a connection to the Gospel Oak - Barking Line, extending the Victoria line to Leytonstone, or rebuilding Walthamstow Central to provide step free access and therefore make the existing route to Stratford with a change at Tottenham Hale fully accessible.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Perhaps it would also be possible to reinstate the Hall Farm curve and divert the some (say 50%) of the Chingford to Liverpool Street trains to run via Stratford. This would maintain links to Clapton and Hackney Downs, and also provide the required links to Stratford, without increasing traffic over the Highams Park level crossing.

To compensate for the loss of service at Clapton, perhaps some of the existing trains from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street could be made to stop there, thus providing a link which is missing at the moment. It is ridiculous that there is no direct service from Tottenham Hale to Clapton.

That's an interesting idea. Many of the passengers travelling between Walthamstow and Chingford use the Victoria Line and would not object to fewer trains going through to Liverpool Street. Those train paths could be taken up by a new service from Meridian Water which called at Clapton.

I don't think the Victoria line has much capacity to go onwards at the northern end either (the southern is often debunked) - the Central line traffic would massively overwhelm it,

I don't think it would be overwhelmed because of the Elizabeth Line. The numbers changing from the Central at Leytonstone and from Anglia at Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters will be lower than would have been the case a few years ago.

Extending either the Jubilee or North London Lines from Stratford would require a complete rebuild of the station. The DLR station at International faces the wrong way for an easy extension to Walthamstow, although the DLR can handle very sharp curves so that issue could possibly be overcome without having to rebuild the station.

I think realistically the only options are a new Central line station at Leytonstone High Road for a connection to the Gospel Oak - Barking Line, extending the Victoria line to Leytonstone, or rebuilding Walthamstow Central to provide step free access and therefore make the existing route to Stratford with a change at Tottenham Hale fully accessible.

I don't think that is politically or socially realistic. The current station is at the heart of Leytonstone's shopping district and that new station would be very near to Leyton Underground Station.

 

[DanNCL]

If the Victoria Line extended to Leytonstone and there was a desire to increase the frequency on the two Central Line branches, I wonder how feasible it would be to incorporate one of the two branches into the Victoria Line and have all Central Line trains run via the other. The logical branch to transfer to the Victoria line from a geographical point of view would be the Hainault branch, but could the tunnels be modified to accommodate the larger Victoria Line fleet? Transferring the Epping branch to the Victoria Line would be easier as there aren't any deep tube tunnels, but from a geographical point of view wouldn't make sense as the Victoria Line would effectively be making a southwards detour in order to serve Leytonstone.

I don't think that is politically or socially realistic. The current station is at the heart of Leytonstone's shopping district and that new station would be very near to Leyton Underground Station.

In which case the options are either a Victoria line extension to Leytonstone or an upgrade of the existing route via Tottenham Hale.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

If the Victoria Line extended to Leytonstone and there was a desire to increase the frequency on the two Central Line branches, I wonder how feasible it would be to incorporate one of the two branches into the Victoria Line and have all Central Line trains run via the other. The logical branch to transfer to the Victoria line from a geographical point of view would be the Hainault branch, but could the tunnels be modified to accommodate the larger Victoria Line fleet? Transferring the Epping branch to the Victoria Line would be easier as there aren't any deep tube tunnels, but from a geographical point of view wouldn't make sense as the Victoria Line would effectively be making a southwards detour in order to serve Leytonstone.

I don't think it's feasible or necessary for an extended Victoria Line to take over either branch. The main requirement for the Central Line would be to maintain the frequency of a train every three minutes west of Leytonstone. One very interesting statistic about use of the Elizabeth Line so far is that it has not reduced patronage of the Central Line even in central London.

 

[Railperf]

Seems to make more sense to run a light rail shuttle service between Walthamstow Central and Lea Bridge via a reinstated Hall Farm curve to connect it to the 4 tph there. Looks like enough space for a bay platform at Lea Bridge. The third track could be extended into the bay platform thus minimising disruption to paths through stratford. P11 and 12

 

[MPW]

Not sure if this is the right thread, maybe it needs a dedicated thread for stratford station redevelopment.

A business case has been submitted for large-scale redevelopment of the station, including more passenger capacity and better connection to olympic park, stratford high street and the international station. All very vague so far. Maybe it's just an improved walking route to the international station without having to go through westfield. I wondered if anyone had any ideas of what could be involved.

I notice the NLL terminating platforms are right next to the Lea Valley line terminating platforms. Could those be interconnected without causing major operational issues? maybe a new station could be added on the lea valley line north of the international tracks. somewhere like temple mill lane or liberty bridge road.

Also the existing DLR connection is pretty useless. 10 minute frequency and even if timed perfectly it's not really much faster than walking from main station to international once factoring in transfer. If the DLR were diverted out of the station tunnel and to instead go above the station and north then west around westfield, it could connect with the lewisham DLR line (terminates above and perpendicular) to provide a much higher frequency to international. The tunnel through station could then be repurposed for passenger interchange.

it's all so vague at the moment that it's pretty fun trying to think what could happen.

Stratford station upgrade moves forward with business case submission: Plans include 2,000 homes and 10,000 jobs

Plans to upgrade overcrowded Stratford station in East London have taken a step forward after a business case was submitted to the government.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

 

[supervc-10]

Stratford Int'l DLR is very useful for those of us who live in East Village, as someone who can see the station from his balcony I can assure you that! Walking through Westfield is an absolute nightmare. I don't think it would be easy to route the DLR through any other way than through the tunnel, without building some elevated track over the entire station and Montfitchet Road.

I think a better way of extending higher frequency service up through Lea Bridge to Tottenham would be to extend the existing Overground services to Meridian Water, by doing exactly what you say @MPW and connecting through the NLL platforms to the Lea Valley line. The issue would be with frequency- certainly not all NLL trains could extend up the single track to Meridian Water, and I don't know if TfL would be keen on having anything less than 15 minute frequency. The route looks like there are areas that could be doubled towards Tottenham Hale, but adding in a new platform at Tottenham Hale looks like it would be impossible.