Vintage rolling stock Kent 60's information needed

[Doveboy]

Hi. I used to live in Kent in the 1960's and my father commuted daily to London on the Kent coast line from Whitstable to London Victoria or London Bridge, think there were various journeys including Cannon Street too. I moved away from Kent in 1975, it was 3rd rail electric line.

This was the period 1964 to 1975. I am interested in exactly what rolling stock and power units were used on this line between Margate and London. I travelled on this line during that period as a young boy and I seem to recall EMUs, but there may have been electric locos as well? It's the rush hour train sets I am really interested in, from around 6.30 am towards London, and 5pm out of London towards Margate. Would these have been EMUS in sets, or loco drawn coach stock? Be great to know what my father used to board 5 days a week at rush hour times.

Any info on the old slam door rolling stock used, and especially if it changed during 1964 to 1975 or not. And also, any preserved sets from the line and time period?

Hope an expert on period stock can pinpoint this information, thanks

 

[yorksrob]

At the time it would have most likely been a selection of 4CEP/BEP units on the express services and 2HAP units on the stoppers.

Ther 4CEP's stayed around until 2005, whilst the 2HAP's were around until 1994. There are various 4CEP's on preserved railways and the NRM has been restoring a 2HAP unit as part of Project Commuter.

In around 1974 the 4VEP's started arriving on the scene, and like the CEP's stayed on the routes until 2005. There's quite a high profile project to restore one of these to the mainline: https://twitter.com/Gordon_3417

They were all splendid trains !

 

[yorksrob]

Since you're up North, the Eden Valley railway has a couple of 4CEP's, although they look different internally from how they would have done in the early 1970's, as they were all extensively refurbished in the late 70's. You can see the NRM's 2HAP at locomotion at Shildon.

 

[Doveboy]

Thanks for your help. I will do more research into these units. Were these all corridor compartment trains or were there any compartments with no corridors?

 

[EM2]

I seem to remember that CEPs and VEPs were mostly open carriages. First Class carriages had corridor compartments, one of which was Second Class.

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks for your help. I will do more research into these units. Were these all corridor compartment trains or were there any compartments with no corridors?

These had corridoor compartments. The CEP's and VEP's it was possible to walk through the whole train. For the HAP's the motor carriage was divided into two saloons which weren't connected, and the trailer had one standard saloon and one corridor with compartments neither of which were accessible to theother.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe CEPs and VEPs were mostly open carriages. First Class carriages had corridor compartments, one of which was Second Class.

When they were built, the CEP's had two open motor carriages, and two compartment trailers, one standard, the other first class. During the refurb, the standard compartment carriage was opened out into a saloon. The guards van was moved to the remaining compartment carriage.

 

[Bevan Price]

Not sure when they finished (without searching through a lot of old timetables), but Class 73 used to have late night / very early morning workings from London into Kent on newspaper trains which also conveyed passengers. One of these reached Faversham.

To/from Dover rather than Margate, Class 71s once worked the "Golden Arrow" London - (boat to Calais) - Paris Pullman service.

 

[big all]

Thanks for your help. I will do more research into these units. Were these all corridor compartment trains or were there any compartments with no corridors?

same design as mk1coaches so look up preserved but unmodified mk1 on preserved railways
from memory the motor coaches where the same as tso mk1

 

[30907]

I seem to remember that CEPs and VEPs were mostly open carriages. First Class carriages had corridor compartments, one of which was Second Class.

That's after they were refurbished as yorksrob has said.
The VEPs had Driving Trailer Composites with 1st compartments and 2nd saloons, but IIRC some of the 1stcwere soon declassified.

@ Doveboy: non-corridor 4EPBs with one coach of "dogbox" compartments might have reached Ramsgate in summer, and possibly some of the commuter trains were re-formed 4EPB plus 8CEP to provide additional seats by the mid 70s.

Electric locos on passenger trains were very rare (otther than the Golden Arrow/ Night Ferry), barring the 0300 Holborn to Ramsgate papers which had a single Brake Second amongst the newspaper vans. (There was a London Br - Redhill - Dover mail but IIRC that was diesel hauled, as Rexhill-Tonbridge wasn't electrified.)
BTW back then the Cannon Street fast trains didn't call at London Bridge.

 

[Journeyman]

When they were built, the CEP's had two open motor carriages, and two compartment trailers, one standard, the other first class. During the refurb, the standard compartment carriage was opened out into a saloon. The guards van was moved to the remaining compartment carriage.

The original compartment trailers on the CEPs were one standard, one composite. Same bodyshells as loco hauled SKs and CKs. The ends were a bit different, with cabling and brake connections arranged for EMU working.

 

[shap summit]

Ah, I remember the 0300 Holborn to Ramsgate papers, I used to help to unload the papers at Whitstable in the 1960s.
The down platform is on a right hand curve and the driver couldn't,t see where to stop as the Whitstable van was near the rear, so we would position somebody further along the platform and signal when 'our' van came along side the waiting room door where we sorted the papers.
Then it was a mad scramble to unload the van and send the train on its way.

 

[eastwestdivide]

@ Doveboy: non-corridor 4EPBs with one coach of "dogbox" compartments might have reached Ramsgate in summer

Definitely reached Ramsgate in the summer - around the late 70s/early 80s when I lived in Medway, there were summer extensions through to Ramsgate of up to three morning and three evening '62' Charing Cross-Gillingham semifasts.

 

[yorksrob]

The original compartment trailers on the CEPs were one standard, one composite. Same bodyshells as loco hauled SKs and CKs. The ends were a bit different, with cabling and brake connections arranged for EMU working.

Ah thanks for the information. With the exception of one memorable journey from Charing Cross as a small child, the pre refurb CEP's were a bit before my time.

 

[Journeyman]

Ah thanks for the information. With the exception of one memorable journey from Charing Cross as a small child, the pre refurb CEP's were a bit before my time.

Certainly before mine, I never saw one! Interesting that a set in preservation is being "defurbished" to original form, though.

 

[yorksrob]

Certainly before mine, I never saw one! Interesting that a set in preservation is being "defurbished" to original form, though.

It's an impressive enterprise as they'll presumably have to make all the internal fittings from scratch !

 

[Journeyman]

It's an impressive enterprise as they'll presumably have to make all the internal fittings from scratch !

Absolutely. My local heritage railway is home to a DMU that had to be gutted for asbestos stripping, and it destroyed all the original panelling. Recreating it was a HUGE job that needed lottery funding, but the finished product is an absolute gem of fifties design.

There's quite a challenge ahead for the CEP rebuild! Many of the fittings are common to Mark 1 coaches, but there's not many of those knocking about to strip these days.

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely. My local heritage railway is home to a DMU that had to be gutted for asbestos stripping, and it destroyed all the original panelling. Recreating it was a HUGE job that needed lottery funding, but the finished product is an absolute gem of fifties design.

There's quite a challenge ahead for the CEP rebuild! Many of the fittings are common to Mark 1 coaches, but there's not many of those knocking about to strip these days.

Indeed, particularly as the designs varied over different mk1's.