Virgin roster

[axlecounter]

Last thing I want is restart where we left in the recently closed topic about working at VT, but I'm really curious: what does a typical roster look like there?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Post amended due to incorrect or irrelevant information.

 

[dctraindriver]

I just read the virgin thread, fair play to red being happy with his decision, good for him/her however I can see where the other bloke is coming from too.

I work for a TOC south of London, it’s not perfect no job is but I’m bloody happy where I am.

Just thought I’d add my two penneth.

I wouldn’t want to work for Virgin..........

 

[Bromley boy]

I wouldn’t want to work for Virgin..........

In fairness, how is that relevant to this thread where someone has asked about typical rosters for Virgin? I for one would be very keen to see them if anyone in the know is willing to post them.

I was disappointed by the way the other thread went, and this one is in danger of going the same way.

There seems to be a great deal of negativity and bitterness (jealousy?) running through the threads discussing Virgin!

 

[neilb62]

35 hr week over a 4 day roster + Sundays.
Most depots (except Polmadie) work a 5 day week and have every 5th week off as Rest Days.
Roughly 50% Sundays and 50 (ish) % Saturdays.
On and off times are very depot specific so can't comment really.
Early book on and night shift allowance paid per shift as appropriate.
Sundays paid at time worked, minimum 6 hrs.
RD's minimum 8 hrs + turn out (£80-odd per shift).
Minimum turn length is 6hrs and the maximum 10.
The spare weeks can be a pain as they have a floating RD. If you get booked a weeks work you take that weeks RD, if you get booked daily you retain the spare weeks RD. We don't have Saturday RD's on spare weeks so you can only gain a Saturday RD, not loose one. You won't know either way until the Tuesday before.

I choose to take my Sundays off so in nearly 40 years footplate its the best part-time job I've ever had!

 

[axlecounter]

Yes, please, let's keep talking about rosters and shifts. Even though it would be interesting to look closely into all these sentiments about Virgin this is probably not the best place to do it.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Perhaps while we're here I can bring up the position of a "Ferryman". I read in one edition of the RAIL magazine that a ferryman is one who takes the trains in and out of the depot between services or when the sets are heading off for the night and coming out in the morning.

Now here this was a driver who was based at Euston but was acting as a ferryman for that specific day. Is this actually a thing or are there designated drivers to take the sets to stations from depots, or do the drivers taking the train on it's next diagrammed service bring them in?

This is technically part of a roster if I'm not mistaken, so thankfully it's still relevant to the original post.

 

[dctraindriver]

In fairness, how is that relevant to this thread where someone has asked about typical rosters for Virgin? I for one would be very keen to see them if anyone in the know is willing to post them.

I was disappointed by the way the other thread went, and this one is in danger of going the same way.

There seems to be a great deal of negativity and bitterness (jealousy?) running through the threads discussing Virgin!

In fairness really the OP asked a question which actually may have been asked in the locked thread.

No I’m not negative/bitter (jealous) towards Virgin/Stagecoach and like Red I’m proud of where I work which is why I said I wouldn’t want to work for Virgin.

Like I say fair play to Red but there are other good companies to work for.

 

[ComUtoR]

Don't take everything I say here as fact, because I'm no driver though I have gathered some information over the years. I too would be interested in this information myself though, so if I'm wrong I'd appreciate being corrected, and if I'm right I'd feel more confident in my knowledge.

This entire post is irrelevant

What you are describing is NOT a roster and in context of the aforementioned thread pretty much completely wrong. Sorry.

You have the Master Roster which outlines your link working and your base hours and days that you are required to work. Typically that's will be :

Sunday RD
Monday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Tuesday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Wednesday RD
Thursday RD
Friday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Saturday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)

In the above example you have a 4 day week with split rest days. The duties/diagrams you work each day has little bearing on the overall issue at hand. What a favourable week would be is :

Sunday RD
Monday RD
Tuesday RD
Wednesday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Thursday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Friday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Saturday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)

That way when you keep the RD's grouped you get a better quality of time off between worked days. That's just covering the issue of split rest days...

The other issues become :

Time between shifts (rest periods)

Monday 16:35 - 01:35
Tuesday 13:38 - 22:15

You meet the 12hr minimum between turns but your fatigue level is pushed to the limit; especially if you consider travel times.

Sundays inside/outside

This is contentious across the entire industry. Ours is Sunday inside and that means our 4 day week includes Sundays. Other TOC's have Sundays outside and that they will either never work a Sunday again (giving more quality time off) or that Sundays are by some form of contractual obligation and that the Sunday is a 5th day of work.

Rest Day patterns

Only once in my entire career has my TOC had a rest day pattern. That was a 16 line rotation and you could predict your rest days forever. You get consistent long weekends every X number of weeks and it leads to a better quality of life. Rest day patterns are considered to be a better roster. The tricks you can pull with AL can be really beneficial.

Shift pattern

My TOC works the standard A/B shifts with Early/Late rotations. Early is considered 00:01 - 11:59 booking on time and Late 12:01 - 23:59. This means that you can book on for an early shift at 11:58 and then work 9hrs and that is considered an early shift :/ Some TOCs work a 3 shift rotation. I'm not sure how that works tbh but GTR work it.

Roster balancing

Difficult one to approach tbh but rosters can be well-balanced pretty badly at times. Due to the service patterns at some TOCs there may be some weighting towards an increase in Weekend work, Early shifts (peak cover) and even a heavy weighting on Bank Holiday work (as at my TOC) If you have a TOC where you work more weekends then your work/life balance gets seriously skewed. This is also heavily affected where Sundays are inside or not.

Start/finish times

Our earliest booking on time is 0345 and our latest book off is 0154 when our late turn gets amended. That's just my Depot. With another Depot booking on for 02:50 you very much need to think of a roster where you can get a heavy weighting towards early early starts and late late finishes. Almost all of our early turns have booked on before 0500.

Spare/As Required

Getting moved 3hrs from Spare really really winds me up. Where we have a huge amount of spare cover you can get messed about considerably. Having a base roster with minimal spare cover but an increase in fixed work is generally beneficial. Constantly moving your shifts at a minimum of 16hrs notice puts a strain on your personal life and removes any flexibility you need for family/friends etc.

Misc

You can chuck in link working and link progression too but that's a different complication to add at this time. You can also add diagram lengths to a lesser extent but that can also have an affect on the roster too. Out ATL (average turn length) is around 08:24 and that is heavily restricted by our T&C's and constrained by rostering principles Our max diagram is 09:15 and when you compare that to GTR's 09:50 they can poke it with a hook switch pole.

There is sooooooo much to consider when thinking about the 'Bonnie' 'Roster' situation. There is a split between mainline/metro work but deep down I don't think any of us really care. Work is work. The discussions about what we do each day is just as endless.

Someone in another thread mentioned the East Grindsteads. My route knowledge is pretty good and I sign a diverse amount of routes. Doing just one or two routes day in, day out would make Sisyphus look like a cry baby. It can get soul destroying. Some people however, love it. Each to their own tbh but its also a consideration when changing TOCs'

 

[dctraindriver]

Sundays inside/outside

This is contentious across the entire industry. Ours is Sunday inside and that means our 4 day week includes Sundays. Other TOC's have Sundays outside and that they will either never work a Sunday again (giving more quality time off) or that Sundays are by some form of contractual obligation and that the Sunday is a 5th day of work.

Rest Day patterns

Only once in my entire career has my TOC had a rest day pattern. That was a 16 line rotation and you could predict your rest days forever. You get consistent long weekends every X number of weeks and it leads to a better quality of life. Rest day patterns are considered to be a better roster. The tricks you can pull with AL can be really beneficial.


Roster balancing

Difficult one to approach tbh but rosters can be well-balanced pretty badly at times. Due to the service patterns at some TOCs there may be some weighting towards an increase in Weekend work, Early shifts (peak cover) and even a heavy weighting on Bank Holiday work (as at my TOC) If you have a TOC where you work more weekends then your work/life balance gets seriously skewed. This is also heavily affected where Sundays are inside or not.

Someone in another thread mentioned the East Grindsteads. My route knowledge is pretty good and I sign a diverse amount of routes. Doing just one or two routes day in, day out would make Sisyphus look like a cry baby. It can get soul destroying. Some people however, love it. Each to their own tbh but its also a consideration when changing TOCs'

Well put and what I’ve quoted sums up why I’m happy. Half a year off, fair conditions, I’m happy.....

 

[ComUtoR]

35 hr week over a 4 day roster + Sundays.

Sundays in or out ?

Ours is in, so when your rostered a Sunday you get 3 days off that week. I haven't worked a 5 day week in some time.

The whole 5 day week for a deferred RD week has always intrigued me. 1 week off every 5 sounds great on paper but a 4 day week has changed my life way to much. A hard one fo rme to decide which way to swing.

10hrs - No "£$%$%$% way, never again. 09:45 was my maximum and to go back to that would kill me slowly. Maybe its the Metro in me that just sees another 30 stops

We have no time allowances as they were absorbed into the base salary but personally I think that has come out at a loss.

 

[superhands]

Someone posted the base roster for VWC Preston depot a few months ago
search back through the the virgin treads for it.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

This entire post is irrelevant

What you are describing is NOT a roster and in context of the aforementioned thread pretty much completely wrong. Sorry.

Apologies not required. I shall simply make amendments to my original post...

 

[donpoku]

What I'd like to know is the +/- of a virgin roster from a virgin driver. How is the roster and work for you?

Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

 

[donpoku]

Sundays in or out ?

Ours is in, so when your rostered a Sunday you get 3 days off that week. I haven't worked a 5 day week in some time.

The whole 5 day week for a deferred RD week has always intrigued me. 1 week off every 5 sounds great on paper but a 4 day week has changed my life way to much. A hard one fo rme to decide which way to swing.

10hrs - No "£$%$%$% way, never again. 09:45 was my maximum and to go back to that would kill me slowly. Maybe its the Metro in me that just sees another 30 stops

We have no time allowances as they were absorbed into the base salary but personally I think that has come out at a loss.

Yeah but No but Yeah but No but... are you happy though? Can't I tempt you to the amazing Virgin? lol

In all seriousness though every TOC has its attractiveness and unattractiveness be it close to home, t&c etc. One man's treasure...


Sent from my LG-H850 using Tapatalk

 

[red2005]

In fairness really the OP asked a question which actually may have been asked in the locked thread.

No I’m not negative/bitter (jealous) towards Virgin/Stagecoach and like Red I’m proud of where I work which is why I said I wouldn’t want to work for Virgin.

Like I say fair play to Red but there are other good companies to work for.

I totally agree there are many good companies to work for such as the one I left for Virgin..... without going over old ground too much..... my other post was in no way designed to make out that Virgin was better than anyone or anything else ( that seemed to be someone else's angle) how could I say that they are better than anyone else when A- I've been here a short period and B- I've not worked EVERYWHERE else?

The other post was aimed at people who were thinking about making the move but were unsure due to some often incorrect mess room type bravado as a couple of people would of seen had they chose to read the entire post instead of just the bits they chose to. All that uniform and "looking down noses" nonsense was brought in by someone else and ruined what I thought could of been a very informative post. Totally pointless.

Anyway back to the OP...... from what I have seen so for the rosters seem very different from depot to depot..... my depot rosters wise seems ok.

 

[axlecounter]

So many questions and so little time...

While being a driver I understand the basics of how english drivers' rosters look like there are some things that I still can't seem to grasp...

This entire post is irrelevant

What you are describing is NOT a roster and in context of the aforementioned thread pretty much completely wrong. Sorry.

You have the Master Roster which outlines your link working and your base hours and days that you are required to work. Typically that's will be :

Sunday RD
Monday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Tuesday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Wednesday RD
Thursday RD
Friday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Saturday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)

In the above example you have a 4 day week with split rest days. The duties/diagrams you work each day has little bearing on the overall issue at hand. What a favourable week would be is :

Sunday RD
Monday RD
Tuesday RD
Wednesday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Thursday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Friday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)
Saturday XX:XX - XX:XX (duty #)

That way when you keep the RD's grouped you get a better quality of time off between worked days. That's just covering the issue of split rest days...

Ok, I get how this week looks like, but how will the next (and the next) look like RD-wise? Will it be with the same RD or different? Or does that mean that each week you could work any four out of seven days of the week, (eventually) respecting the 2-1 RD?

The other issues become :

Time between shifts (rest periods)

Monday 16:35 - 01:35
Tuesday 13:38 - 22:15

You meet the 12hr minimum between turns but your fatigue level is pushed to the limit; especially if you consider travel times.

Here we have a "12hr minimum-but can get down to 11hr once every 4 days-why not down to 10hr sometimes" :roll:

Sundays inside/outside

This is contentious across the entire industry. Ours is Sunday inside and that means our 4 day week includes Sundays. Other TOC's have Sundays outside and that they will either never work a Sunday again (giving more quality time off) or that Sundays are by some form of contractual obligation and that the Sunday is a 5th day of work.

This is still something I can't seem to understand:
Sundays in: does it mean just that one of your 4 work days may be a Sunday?
Sundays out: I had a big WTF face when I first heard of this and I pretty much still have...does this mean that some TOCs have no trains on Sundays? Or only that some drivers don't do Sundays (for less money?) ?

Rest Day patterns

Only once in my entire career has my TOC had a rest day pattern. That was a 16 line rotation and you could predict your rest days forever. You get consistent long weekends every X number of weeks and it leads to a better quality of life. Rest day patterns are considered to be a better roster. The tricks you can pull with AL can be really beneficial.

Could you give an example? Pattern as in fixed days of the week off or as in 4 on 2 off 4 on, etc. ? AL?

Shift pattern

My TOC works the standard A/B shifts with Early/Late rotations. Early is considered 00:01 - 11:59 booking on time and Late 12:01 - 23:59. This means that you can book on for an early shift at 11:58 and then work 9hrs and that is considered an early shift :/ Some TOCs work a 3 shift rotation. I'm not sure how that works tbh but GTR work it.

Meaning that each week you do only early/late shifts?

 

[class 9]

The post is about the Virgin roster, but for what & who.... Is it Drivers or onboard staff? East Coast or West Coast?

 

[axlecounter]

The post is about the Virgin roster, but for what & who.... Is it Drivers or onboard staff? East Coast or West Coast?

Well, the closed topic that to open this one was about driving for VTWC. But, from what I've read on this forum here and there, it seems that there's some sort of mystical surrounding VT, which maybe someone in the know could help to clarify, so it could be about any of those you mention...

 

[axlecounter]

35 hr week over a 4 day roster + Sundays.
Most depots (except Polmadie) work a 5 day week and have every 5th week off as Rest Days.
Roughly 50% Sundays and 50 (ish) % Saturdays.
On and off times are very depot specific so can't comment really.
Early book on and night shift allowance paid per shift as appropriate.
Sundays paid at time worked, minimum 6 hrs.
RD's minimum 8 hrs + turn out (£80-odd per shift).
Minimum turn length is 6hrs and the maximum 10.
The spare weeks can be a pain as they have a floating RD. If you get booked a weeks work you take that weeks RD, if you get booked daily you retain the spare weeks RD. We don't have Saturday RD's on spare weeks so you can only gain a Saturday RD, not loose one. You won't know either way until the Tuesday before.

I choose to take my Sundays off so in nearly 40 years footplate its the best part-time job I've ever had!

Thanks!

 

[Bromley boy]

The post is about the Virgin roster, but for what & who.... Is it Drivers or onboard staff? East Coast or West Coast?

I'd be fascinated to see both - preferably for London depots!

 

[ComUtoR]

Ok, I get how this week looks like, but how will the next (and the next) look like RD-wise? Will it be with the same RD or different? Or does that mean that each week you could work any four out of seven days of the week, (eventually) respecting the 2-1 RD?

Different RD's. Our roster is based on the principle of 4/7 days and it can be any 3 days off each week. As the previous thread mentioned, split rest days aren't popular. Neither is random rest days. You may hear the phrase 'rest day pattern' and those are rosters with a repeating pattern of days off. Rest day patterns are by far the most popular.

Here we have a "12hr minimum-but can get down to 11hr once every 4 days-why not down to 10hr sometimes" :roll:

Ours is always 12hrs minimum when driving. 11hrs when not safety critical. Still, getting the bare minimum between shifts is a killer.

Sundays in: does it mean just that one of your 4 work days may be a Sunday?

Pretty much yes. My contract has Sundays included and is a normal working day. My 4 day week can include Sundays

Sundays out: I had a big WTF face when I first heard of this and I pretty much still have...does this mean that some TOCs have no trains on Sundays? Or only that some drivers don't do Sundays (for less money?) ?

Soundays outside means that any Sunday working is not part of your normal week and that you generally don't have to work them. Some TOC's have complicated working arrangements about Sundays and any Sunday worked is considered overtime. Contractual or otherwise. GTR have just agreed a committed Sunday agreement.

TOC's do have trains on Sundays but the Sundays outside the working week is historical. There are plenty of occasions where the TOC has to cancel services because not enough Drivers volunteer for the Sunday.

Could you give an example? Pattern as in fixed days of the week off or as in 4 on 2 off 4 on, etc. ? AL?

Rest days
Week 1 : Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday
Week 2 : Thursday/Friday/Saturday
Week 3 : Sunday/Wednesday/Thursday
Week 4 : Tuesday/Wednesday/Saturday
Week 5 : Sunday/Monday/Tuesday

Then it just repeats back again from week 1. Not forgetting htis is a random made up example. Ours was a 16 line rotation so every 16 weeks the pattern repeated. You can plan ahead for the long term and you typically get a long weekend every X number of weeks.

Our Gateline work 5 on/2 off, 7 on/ 5 off. Again its a nice repeating pattern. Each TOC does it different and each depot within that TOC can also be different, as long as your basic rostering principles are followed.

AL (annual leave)

Meaning that each week you do only early/late shifts?

Yes. Ours alternates. Other TOC's can change shifts in the middle of the week and they run a different style roster or have multiple shifts.

To add more to the mix..

Our base roster only changes twice a year. So between the May timetable change and December one the roster is fixed. You have a certain degree of planning as your rest days can't change.

When you change TOC the roster is something Drivers are concerned with. You rarely hear about the work content/station stops/breaks or terms and conditions but you hear loads about what the roster is like. Plenty of threads come up asking about rosters and rest day patterns.

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks!

I'd also be very intrigued to hear, how does the money/T&Cs in the UK compare with Switzerland?

 

[superhands]

Chris the ref posted the Roster it is in the Virgin Trains Drivers thred which is currently on page 35 of railway jobs and careers. (Don't know how to post link)

 

[axlecounter]

Chris the ref posted the Roster it is in the Virgin Trains Drivers thred which is currently on page 35 of railway jobs and careers. (Don't know how to post link)

This: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142765

I'd also be very intrigued to hear, how does the money/T&Cs in the UK compare with Switzerland?

Well, I could give you the numbers...but you'll have to do the math! Always difficult to do such economic comparisons...

T&C is another big topic, I could talk a bit about the easy part: rosters. They vary quite a bit between Depots, but the base is everywhere an annual base roster, where you know when all your RD are and for I'd say about 60% if you are on lates or earlies shifts (they can obviously change but mostly don't).

There's no sunday in or out, it's considered just like any day of the week and there's not really a "week". Usually a generic pattern of # days off - # days on is extablished and then repeated for the rest of the year, with exceptions.

For example, we have a "4-2" pattern, which means that I'll generally do 4 on and two off but sometimes have maybe only 1 RD instead of 2 or work 5 days instead of 4.

Monday early
Tuesday early
Wednesday early
Thursday early
Friday RD
Saturday RD
Sunday late

Monday late
Tuesday late
Wednesday late
Friday RD
Saturday late
Sunday late

Monday late
Tuesday RD
Wednesday RD
Etc...

Other Depots prefer to work 5-6 days in a row and have more RD.

What's a usual number of total hours worked each year for a driver in the UK?




I'm sorry, I should have titled this "Generic roster knowledge" or something like that.

 

[ComUtoR]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142765

Sundays outside. You work 5 days Mon-Sat with 1 RD.
After 4 weeks of that, you get a week of RDs.
Earlier start 03:38. Latest finish 02:15 (based on the link I have from a couple of years ago)
100 Drivers. 5 links of 20. Link 5 sign Longsight and Euston, which is what put me off applying.

Link 5 of the roster is posted a couple of posts down.

 

[Class2ldn]

Not to stirr up any of the last thread but as I posted on the lines below that roster I think it's a very poor roster indeed.
Most weeks have split rest days and for me the money on offer would never be enough to outweigh the negatives that roster would have on my family life.
I work a 4 day week with the same rest days and it rotates every 3 weeks with the 3rd week our 5 day long weekend.
I can basically plan what rest days I'm doing until retire if need be.
They never change.
Always a minimum of 2 off and at the moment no Sundays atall.

 

[red2005]

Just so people are aware...... there are people at Virgin who wouldn't touch the long weekend every 3rd week pattern with a barge pole and I dare say they have families and private lives too..... just a thought.

I for one have worked to BOTH patterns now and can safely say I've felt just as tired and spent just as many days passing my family like ships in the night on the 3 week cycle as I have on this....... I've also felt just as flogged going into a long weekend off as I have on this too.

Neither shift pattern is a paradise..... the important thing is the work load whilst you're in and the family time when you're off...... on my new pattern I feel as though I'm doing half the workload...... I'm home at more sociable times so seeing more of my family during work times and now I get a whole week off where I can take and pick the lad up from school...... help him with his homework....... take him on longer holidays without worrying about using ad hoc rest days etc....... I'm in much better moods at home and in work..... and I've received an improved salary for the privilege!...... oh and I've NO split rest days either ??????

Horses for courses obviously but having now done both patterns it's a no brainer for me!

 

[Class2ldn]

Just so people are aware...... there are people at Virgin who wouldn't touch the long weekend every 3rd week pattern with a barge pole and I dare say they have families and private lives too..... just a thought.

I for one have worked to BOTH patterns now and can safely say I've felt just as tired and spent just as many days passing my family like ships in the night on the 3 week cycle as I have on this....... I've also felt just as flogged going into a long weekend off as I have on this too.

Neither shift pattern is a paradise..... the important thing is the work load whilst you're in and the family time when you're off...... on my new pattern I feel as though I'm doing half the workload...... I'm home at more sociable times so seeing more of my family during work times and now I get a whole week off where I can take and pick the lad up from school...... help him with his homework....... take him on longer holidays without worrying about using ad hoc rest days etc....... I'm in much better moods at home and in work..... and I've received an improved salary for the privilege!...... oh and I've NO split rest days either ��

Horses for courses obviously but having now done both patterns it's a no brainer for me!

Sorry but there's not many who wouldn't like the 4 day week.
Why would you want to work 5/6 days as standard.
Il let others decide why anyone at virgin wouldn't want a 4 day week like most other tocs
Only time I'm doing that is when I'm working rest days so I'm earning extra for it anyway.
Be interesting to see your roster as if I'm correct your at Wolverhampton and after seeing one of their roster patterns before it didn't change my mind
Obviously all depots are different but on my toc every depot works to the same rest day dependant on the shift so for me it's great, I know my friends on the same shifts at other depots have the same time off as me.
To me the weekends are more important which may not be as important to others which may be why the roster suits you.
I wouldn't even think about going to a company where Sundays are compulsory now, haven't worked one in 4 years and don't plan to now.

 

[Class2ldn]

Also you say about family time but if your not on a four day week with set rest days how can you plan ahead?
I know if I'm off for any birthdays, Xmas new year etc.
Doesn't matter what changes it won't be the roster so I can plan years in advance.
Who wouldn't prefer that?
My last toc had a roster similar to yours and they could change rest days on new rosters etc and you couldn't plan anything past the next roster change.
It's all the little extras like sign on and walking times etc that make a difference to.
I'm glad it suits you red and I hope you'll be happy there but it's not a place I'd look to work as for me there's more negatives then positives but like you say it's horses for courses.

Each to their own.