Virgin set to propose new cross-channel service

[Future]

‘Virgin planning rival rail service to Eurostar’

It is reported billionaire Sir Richard Branson is set to launch a challenge to Eurostar – but will it mean a revival for Ashford and Ebbsfleet?

www.kentonline.co.uk

Eurostar's monopoly over high-speed continental passenger train services through the Channel Tunnel could be set to be broken by Sir Richard Branson.

According to reports, the billionaire Virgin boss is drafting up plans to go head-to-head with Eurostar – a company which has enraged many in Kent by failing to stop any of its continental services at either Ashford or Ebbsfleet since the pandemic.

However, with Virgin bosses keeping tight-lipped over the claims – reported in the Telegraph – it is not known if the proposals would include reviving the fortunes of Kent’s two international stations.

The news comes hot on the heels of Spanish company Evolyn formally declaring an interest in a Eurostar challenger, which Ashford MP Damian Green hopes will eventually lead to trains stopping once again in the county.

Ashford residents have called for Eurostar trains to be brought back after the international rail links were suspended during the pandemic. Eurostar has insisted it does not make economic sense to revive the services yet. More than 23,000 people signed a petition calling for the services to be reinstated in Kent earlier this year.

If tycoon Branson’s plans come to fruition, it would mark a return to the UK rail industry after his Virgin Trains company ended its services in Britain four years ago.

An industry source told the Telegraph that Virgin “would have a strong chance of succeeding” on any cross-Channel routes given its experience running a UK trains franchise from 1997 to 2019.

“Virgin doesn’t comment on rumour or speculation,” a Virgin spokesman added.

Eurostar has had a stranglehold on services from London to Europe since 1994. It pays Eurotunnel’s owners GetLink to use the Channel Tunnel but there are no restrictions to prevent others from now operating on the route if they can agree similar carriage deals with the tunnel operator.

it is hoped any direct competition to Eurostar – which almost went to the wall during the travel lockdowns after failing to secure any government financial support – could see cheaper prices and more options for travellers from Kent.

GetLink declined to comment on Virgin’s prospective plans but said it would “welcome growth in traffic through the Channel Tunnel whether from the current incumbent, Eurostar, or from new entrants to the market”.

The Telegraph reported former Virgin Trains boss Phil Whittingham has been tasked with formulating the plans

The newspaper report points to the ability to break the Eurostar stranglehold on the route as similar to the approach Branson took when he went head-to-head with trans-Atlantic aircraft operators

This could be an interesting opportunity, and certainly more viable than the other start-up planning to rival ES, as Virgin have far more experience in the field. Will be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[jfollows]

‘Virgin planning rival rail service to Eurostar’

It is reported billionaire Sir Richard Branson is set to launch a challenge to Eurostar – but will it mean a revival for Ashford and Ebbsfleet?

www.kentonline.co.uk

This could be an interesting opportunity, and certainly more viable than the other start-up planning to rival ES, as Virgin have far more experience in the field. Will be interesting to see where this goes.

Can you please expand the story in a quote, most of us can’t read through the link you’ve given?
Thank you!

 

[Future]

Can you please expand the story in a quote, most of us can’t read through the link you’ve given?

Just done so

 

[Flying Snail]

He probably noticed how many others were spouting hot air over "Eurostar Rival Plans" and as the former king of hot air felt left out so had to announce his own.

 

[Austriantrain]

Cross-Channel is certainly ripe for competition, but the station facility issue at St Pancras and Gare du Nord (and maybe other stations) is unresolved. The only viable option IMO is to run it like an airport, ie separately from any operators and charging those for the services (the charges of course will then be added to the fare, again like at airlines).

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think Virgin are in with a good shout on this one, they know what makes the UK tick and they know how to do international services because of the airline and more to the point putting the customer first and listening to them has always been something they were good at even if a few of their ideas, operation princess or rather than involvement in same which wasn't entirely there fault anyway left a bit to be desired

 

[Snow1964]

Cross-Channel is certainly ripe for competition, but the station facility issue at St Pancras and Gare du Nord (and maybe other stations) is unresolved. The only viable option IMO is to run it like an airport, ie separately from any operators and charging those for the services (the charges of course will then be added to the faire, again like at airlines).

Is the question of border at the stations one for the rail operator or the station operator.

All these proposed cross channel operators are clearly aiming to compete with short haul airlines, the way that works is they pay a fee to airport and air traffic control (Nats) for each plane, and then they can fill as many seats as they like on the plane.

So if competition is on same level playing field, my question is will train be charged flat fee and it is the station operators problem to provide sufficient border facilities, or is it train operators problem if they are granted a usage slot.

 

[JaJaWa]

Original (source) article from The Telegraph:

Sir Richard Branson plots Eurostar challenger

Billionaire to return to Britain’s rail sector after Virgin Trains ended UK operations

By Luke Barr 11 November 2023 • 12:00pm

Sir Richard Branson is preparing a bid to break Eurostar’s monopoly on Channel Tunnel rail services, The Telegraph can reveal.

The billionaire is plotting a rival operation and a return to Britain’s rail sector four years after his Virgin Trains business ended operations in the UK.

It is understood that Virgin Train’s former boss Phil Whittingham has been tasked with spearheading Sir Richard’s challenge to Eurostar, which is at an early stage. However, sources said preparations were already under way for one of the balloon enthusiast’s signature publicity stunts at St Pancras International.

Mr Whittingham has been holding discussions with infrastructure officials along the prospective route, which currently runs from London to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam.

He worked for the Virgin Trains franchise for 22 years but left for First Group in 2019. Mr Whittingham was subsequently made managing director of Avanti, but exited late last year after a string of timetable failures sparked anger among passengers and politicians.

An industry source said Virgin “would have a strong chance of succeeding” on any cross-channel routes given its experience running a UK trains franchise from 1997 to 2019. An attack on Eurostar’s monopoly would recall 73-year-old Sir Richard’s successful campaign to open up transatlantic airline routes previously dominated by British Airways.

A Virgin spokesman said: “Virgin doesn’t comment on rumour or speculation.”

The prospect of Sir Richard shaking up cross-Channel travel comes just weeks after Spanish company Evolyn also revealed plans for a new service to challenge Eurostar.

Evolyn and Virgin are among a group of contenders exploring new services to France and beyond, with the potential for a further two new bidders in the coming weeks.

It comes amid liberalisation of the train network in Europe, making it easier for challengers to bid for new services. The high-speed rail network in Europe is now open access, meaning companies who are not operating routes can bid for space on the tracks, following new EU rules in 2016.

An attempt to take on Eurostar would mark a show of regained strength for Sir Richard after his business empire nearly collapsed during the pandemic.

He said earlier this year that he lost around £1.5bn due to Covid, which was fuelled by Virgin Atlantic’s planes being grounded due to lockdown restrictions.

His satellite launch rocket company Virgin Orbit also filed for bankruptcy in the US in April – which followed its failed mission from Cornwall.

However, he was dealt an upturn in fortunes last month when he succeeded in a High Court dispute against US train operator Brightline.

Virgin successfully sued Brightline for £100m after the latter cancelled a deal to use the UK company’s brand in 2020 – just 18 months after an agreement was signed. It is understood Brightline is preparing to appeal the decision.

As for Eurostar, the high-speed rail service firm has held a relative monopoly on rail journeys from London to Paris ever since they were introduced in 1994. Campaigners have long argued for greater competition on the cross-Channel route in a bid to reduce fares for passengers.

The 31-mile Channel tunnel which Eurostar runs through is owned by infrastructure company GetLink.

GetLink declined to comment on Virgin’s prospective plans but said it would “welcome growth in traffic through the Channel Tunnel whether from the current incumbent, Eurostar, or from new entrants to the market”.

So far, only Evolyn has formally declared an interest in a Eurostar challenger. The start-up is owned by the wealthy Spanish Cosmen family and backed by French and British investors.

It has vowed to shake up the market with a “competitively priced” rail service and claimed last month that it had struck a deal with French manufacturer Alstom to buy 12 high-speed trains that could begin running from the UK to Europe as soon as 2025.

However, this was downplayed by Alstom just days later which stressed that no deal had been reached.

Evolyn was only incorporated last year and lists its directors as Felipe and Amalia Cosmen. They are part of the intensely private Cosmen family which traces its wealth back to the 18th century. In 2005, the Cosmens became the biggest shareholders in National Express, now called Mobico.

Evolyn was contacted for comment.

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/11/11/sir-richard-branson-plots-eurostar-challenger/

 

[YorkRailFan]

I welcome more competition for cross-Channel services, but I hope that this simply isn't a phase of operators trying to launch services to compete with Eurostar, after Evolyn ordered 12 trains from Alstom. I think that infrastructure at stations like St Pancras and Gare du Nord will need to be upgraded (security, passport control, etc) to handle passengers. But this could be interesting.

 

[Future]

after Evolyn ordered 12 trains from Alstom.

I believe the whole situation around this was somewhat of a misunderstanding by press and no order has actually been made

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I believe the whole situation around this was somewhat of a misunderstanding by press and no order has actually been made

You'd have to be sure of your access rights before ordering hardware.
The same would be true of a Virgin bid.
I'm not sure of Virgin's capability these days, Virgin Trains is now Avanti and Virgin Atlantic never showed much interest in its rail cousin and has its own problems staying afloat, to mix my metaphors.

 

[Snow1964]

Knowing Virgin it would be a 10-15% stake and lead on marketing and branding. It could even be one of the currently unspecified partners with Evolyn / Mobico

 

[RT4038]

Is the question of border at the stations one for the rail operator or the station operator.

All these proposed cross channel operators are clearly aiming to compete with short haul airlines, the way that works is they pay a fee to airport and air traffic control (Nats) for each plane, and then they can fill as many seats as they like on the plane.

So if competition is on same level playing field, my question is will train be charged flat fee and it is the station operators problem to provide sufficient border facilities, or is it train operators problem if they are granted a usage slot.

It could be a flat fee per train, or possibly a combination of flat fee and per passenger? The fee would cover the costs of providing border and security facilities, the provision of which affects the capacity calculations. However, like at Heathrow for instance, the slots would be rationed in accordance with capacity and I would imagine incumbents getting first dibs (or at least their existing) slots. There may well be some spare capacity (probably at the less popular times) now which could go to a new operator, but there would be no compulsion on the station operator to increase the current nominal capacity unless it was in their financial interests to do so.

 

[Intercity110]

another load of empty promises. How many companies have planned them and how many never went ahead?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Knowing Virgin it would be a 10-15% stake and lead on marketing and branding. It could even be one of the currently unspecified partners with Evolyn / Mobico

Similar to the airline, Virgin Australia (which Virgin has no stake in, they pay Virgin to use Virgin branding), but that's getting off topic.

 

[CdBrux]

another load of empty promises. How many companies have planned them and how many never went ahead?

As I understand it nothing is being promised. It seems some companies are evaluating the idea, which is quite different

 

[RT4038]

another load of empty promises. How many companies have planned them and how many never went ahead?

I don't think anyone has been promising anything? There is potentially a lot of money at stake (losses) and a lot of administrative hurdles in starting up a new cross-channel/cross-border service. Nobody 'owes' the market to set one up; I suspect those who talk about this at a high level find these hurdles higher than they first assumed, and perhaps easier places to invest their cash.

 

[Djgr]

Isn't it time for Branson to spend all his time relaxing on one of the islands that we have bought him?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Isn't it time for Branson to spend all his time relaxing on one of the islands that we have bought him?

But this could mean that he can buy another one (if it's profitable).

 

[Taunton]

The way the Virgin Group operates nowadays, it is mainly a marketing image, which can be (and is) sold to whoever as an "image front" to their business, so not surprising that one of the new Eurostar competitors has got together on this. Virgin charge a substantial annual fee for it. They are actually quite good at patrolling their various franchise fronts to be straightforward, and not let the image down. Part of the more expensive deals is for Richard Branson to do one or two key personal appearances.

 

[Speed43125]

Isn't it time for Branson to spend all his time relaxing on one of the islands that we have bought him?

He bought Necker Island in 1976 ie. Before even Virgin Atlantic was founded in 84. And I dare say a decent chunk of this forum has never bought a record!

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I believe the whole situation around this was somewhat of a misunderstanding by press and no order has actually been made

I don't think "misunderstanding" quite covers it. They put out a press release so blatantly false that Alstom had to take the extremely unusual step of issuing an official denial of the non-order.

At this point I'm just fed of of the supposed plans for tunnel services from organisations who have no trains, no order for trains, no clear source of finance, no operating experience and seemingly little comprehension of the complexities involved. Any informed observer could tell you these plans will almost certainly be eventually quietly abandoned and yet credulous journalists in major media outlets turn them into column inches over and over again. They should use the space to report on real train services which actually exist instead.

 

[Wolfie]

Is the question of border at the stations one for the rail operator or the station operator.

All these proposed cross channel operators are clearly aiming to compete with short haul airlines, the way that works is they pay a fee to airport and air traffic control (Nats) for each plane, and then they can fill as many seats as they like on the plane.

So if competition is on same level playing field, my question is will train be charged flat fee and it is the station operators problem to provide sufficient border facilities, or is it train operators problem if they are granted a usage slot.

The UK border is controlled by the Home Office not airports or train station operators. The latter are responsible for much of the physical infrastructure though.

 

[tankmc]

I will believe it when I see it. I am sure SNCF will also make it difficult. The only viable start up I can see if a low cost operator probably owned by SNCF

Isn't it time for Branson to spend all his time relaxing on one of the islands that we have bought him?

You do realise that Virgin is a company, actually many companies, and not just Branson? He actually has very little to do with the running of it now except as a face for it. It’s not going to disappear when he is not here.

 

[Taunton]

He bought Necker Island in 1976 ie. Before even Virgin Atlantic was founded in 84. And I dare say a decent chunk of this forum has never bought a record!

Now don't make us lot feel old!

 

[Tio Terry]

For anyone wanting to run additional trains via Eurotunnel there are a number of problems to be overcome.

Platform capacity at St Pancras is limited, to expand it would be incredibly expensive, but maybe something at Euston would help the problems there? But wherever you go in the UK you have the problem of Border Force not having facilities there so there will be an on cost assuming Border Force are satisfied that they can provide adequate Immigration and Customs checks at such a location.

Any new rolling stock will have to meet the stringent Fire Safety Requirements that Eurotunnel require, which makes the trains more expensive in the first place.

 

[LLivery]

Another website has popped up for 'Europe's next high speed train operator' called Heuro.

It doesn't say much but says:

'Heuro emerged from human desires, informed by analyses from Marveltest.'

and

We will connect Amsterdam with Brussels, Paris, and London with intermediate stops at Schiphol Airport, Rotterdam Central, Antwerp Central & complimentary services to Groningen, Assen, Zwolle and Almere (continuing to Paris, 2 times per day)

So this would be what, the fourth proposal? Virgin has its work cut out...

Edit: Antwerp would be most welcome, always felt Eurostar should've called, even if it was only in the Amsterdam direction...

 

[YorkRailFan]

Another website has popped up for 'Europe's next high speed train operator' called Heuro.

It doesn't say much but says:



and



So this would be what, the fourth proposal? Virgin has its work cut out...

Edit: Antwerp would be most welcome, always felt Eurostar should've called, even if it was only in the Amsterdam direction...

Just started a thread about it.

 

[LLivery]

Just started a thread about it.

Ah, I'll head to there!

 

[newb40]

Would anyone have an idea on the timescale for this? Currently live in Dover and work outside St. Pancras but the travel time to Calais via the tunnel is 10-15 mins quicker. Have been waiting for Eurostar to reopen Calais operations but this gives me some hope I can move soon.