Virgin / Stagecoach win East Coast

[SkinnyDave]

Agreed.

There are apparently works to be done at Carstairs with junctions this year as well which should hopefully bring journey times of the EC/XC/SR services which run that way down anyway. The difference between the two routes is only ten/fifteen minutes anyway so there is very little to be gained.

Agreed that's with current timings but that's based on a QS to Wav stopper I was speculating at an IEP heading straight through could it achieve around a 4hr30 ish journey time.. Was just a thought (if Virgin repainted WC in 2017) could have been an interesting one for competition reasons.

Carstairs has badly been needing done for a long time but that's for another thread

 

[Chrism20]

Understand it's not in the bid but asking if its feasible and if it would be competitive v the WCML service timings.

Pointless having the existing Central service going forward with XC doing most of that work

If going all the way to London the WCML will win every time with journey times of around 4.5hrs. The average time from Edinburgh is about the same with the exception of the very early morning run which stops only at NCL. Even if a Queen St service followed that stopping pattern the WCML would still be quicker or at best a few minutes less

I remember reading somewhere that the route analysis showed the majority of passengers using the old (frequent) services were going to Newcastle or Yorkshire rather than London whilst the services weren't that busy hence why it was scaled back and capacity increased elsewhere with XC running to Glasgow.

I'm guessing the token service that remains is there due to contractual needs more than anything tbh.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed that's with current timings but that's based on a QS to Wav stopper I was speculating at an IEP heading straight through could it achieve around a 4hr30 ish journey time.. Was just a thought (if Virgin repainted WC in 2017) could have been an interesting one for competition reasons.

Carstairs has badly been needing done for a long time but that's for another thread

Removing the stops would reduce the journey time to around 40 mins. Fixing Carstairs (Which I agree could be debated until the world ends) is going to potentially reduce journey times to 50 mins so the time difference remains the same.

Other than serving a second termini with Central more geared up for long distance is there much benefit to it?

 

[SkinnyDave]

If going all the way to London the WCML will win every time with journey times of around 4.5hrs. The average time from Edinburgh is about the same with the exception of the very early morning run which stops only at NCL. Even if a Queen St service followed that stopping pattern the WCML would still be quicker.

I remember reading somewhere that the route analysis showed the majority of passengers using the old (frequent) services were going to Newcastle or Yorkshire rather than London whilst the services weren't that busy hence why it was scaled back and capacity increased elsewhere with XC running to Glasgow.

I'm guessing the token service that remains is there due to contractual needs more than anything tbh.

With intro of IEP new franchise has committed to more 4 hour flat services stopping only at Newcastle.. Probably to stave off any potential threat from Alliance rail open access plans
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If going all the way to London the WCML will win every time with journey times of around 4.5hrs. The average time from Edinburgh is about the same with the exception of the very early morning run which stops only at NCL. Even if a Queen St service followed that stopping pattern the WCML would still be quicker or at best a few minutes less

I remember reading somewhere that the route analysis showed the majority of passengers using the old (frequent) services were going to Newcastle or Yorkshire rather than London whilst the services weren't that busy hence why it was scaled back and capacity increased elsewhere with XC running to Glasgow.

I'm guessing the token service that remains is there due to contractual needs more than anything tbh.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Removing the stops would reduce the journey time to around 40 mins. Fixing Carstairs (Which I agree could be debated until the world ends) is going to potentially reduce journey times to 50 mins so the time difference remains the same.

Other than serving a second termini with Central more geared up for long distance is there much benefit to it?

If the difference will indeed only be ten minutes then there could be an argument for East Coast to regain Central paths again from XC in the future

Are the central to Edin EC and XC services busy?

 

[Chrism20]

With intro of IEP new franchise has committed to more 4 hour flat services stopping only at Newcastle.. Probably to stave off any potential threat from Alliance rail open access plans
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If the difference will indeed only be ten minutes then there could be an argument for East Coast to regain Central paths again from XC in the future

Are the central to Edin EC and XC services busy?

They are so so tbh. I use it from EDB to GLC probably once or twice a month, mainly due to the fact that you can get cheap XC only tickets on it. It's usually laden coming into Edinburgh and then anything between 30 & 60% full depending on the time of day. It looks quite busy as its either a four or five car voyager but a Mk4 would look dead so yes a five car IEP would probably be ok on it but there probably wouldn't be the appetite to reinstate it and getting the paths back off XC isn't going to be easy and with all the new services that the new franchisee has proposed there is unlikely to be rolling stock to run it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the difference will indeed only be ten minutes then there could be an argument for East Coast to regain Central paths again from XC in the future

EC withdrew from Edinburgh-Glasgow for 2 reasons:
- VT is now quicker and more frequent from Glasgow to London
- they needed the stock to improve ECML frequencies to Leeds etc
XC cover the old frequencies with lower capacity.

The ICEC franchise does not include paths into Queen Street (and full length trains won't fit anyway).
Scotrail would object if they had to give away paths to ICEC.
Serving Motherwell is a useful stop via Carstairs.

 

[WatcherZero]

Scottish Government would have a fit if an English Toc proposed Edinburgh-Glasgow services, they already don't like 'English' tocs running on 'Scottish rails' and tried to stop any English services continuing beyond the central belt until public outcry from those it would cut off from direct London services forced them to drop it.

 

[marks87]

EC withdrew from Edinburgh-Glasgow for 2 reasons:
- VT is now quicker and more frequent from Glasgow to London

That's surely a moot point - I'd have thought anyone travelling from Glasgow onto the ECML is wanting an intermediate stop and not going all the way to London.

In much the same way as anyone going from Glasgow via the GSW isn't going to Carlisle, or anyone going from York via the Harrogate Line isn't going to Leeds and so on.

 

[Chrism20]

That's surely a moot point - I'd have thought anyone travelling from Glasgow onto the ECML is wanting an intermediate stop and not going all the way to London.

In much the same way as anyone going from Glasgow via the GSW isn't going to Carlisle, or anyone going from York via the Harrogate Line isn't going to Leeds and so on.

There was a time though pre-WCML upgrade that there wasn't much in the journey times and the ECML was a damn site more reliable most of the time so quite a few people did do the full run from Central down to the cross. Following the upgrade and the introduction of VHF the journey times are greatly reduced and services more reliable.

Factor in Virgins aggressive pricing whilst GNER & NXEC were struggling and the state of the rolling stock towards the end of the NXEC reign and the choice was easy for the passenger so the demand for central dramatically dropped.

Tbh the current set up is probably the best option. The additional capacity was needed elsewhere and the XC capacity is probably about right for the route nowadays although many will argue that the XC capacity is also badly needed elsewhere. Perhaps it's one for Scotrail if the new stations at East Linton and Reston do get built - the service could be Central to Berwick or Newcastle with connections available for onward journeys. One thing is for sure there is very little chance of the EC frequencies returning to what they were

 

[Stats]

I'm not sure if this was already mentioned.
Rail Magazine issue 764 says:

Transport Minister Claire Perry wrote that a ''marginal'' reduction of North East services will take place in the next East Coast franchise.

''These are typically a reduction of one daily call only, in one direction, and include Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar and Darlington'' she said.

Not exactly a massive improvement is it?

Claire Perry has now corrected the record and crossed out the entire paragraph relating to service reductions at the above stations.

 

[Stats]

FAQ on VTEC now available. Nothing new here (except for those that think the livery is the most important thing, first outing of the new logo )

http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/virgintrainseastcoast/

 

[MichaelJP59]

I've not been a rail commuter across a franchise change so not sure what to expect, will they re-livery the trains quite quickly or does it take months? And presumably every bit of grey/purple branding across all the infrastructure will have to be repainted red/white..

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've not been a rail commuter across a franchise change so not sure what to expect, will they re-livery the trains quite quickly or does it take months? And presumably every bit of grey/purple branding across all the infrastructure will have to be repainted red/white..

When GNER passed to National Express, a white stripe was quickly put in place of the red stripe used by GNER, on the same blue base livery, but complete repainting of the whole fleet into grey livery has only recently finished (now under East Coast) I believe.

 

[E-Rail]

Will you be closing ticket offices or shortening opening hours?

We will invest heavily in improving the experience for customers who purchase their tickets online or via mobile apps to make it quicker, easier and more intuitive. However, we recognise that some customers will always prefer to buy their ticket from a member of staff and may require extra help. Therefore we will continue to provide this service and we have no plans to reduce the days/times where this service will be available at any of our stations.

That's a YES then. To be read in conjunction with this...

I’ve heard a lot of talk about ‘Customer Zones’, what are these?

These are new customer friendly open plan areas for combined ticket purchase, information and assistance.

Stagecoach Travel Office Policy rolled out to East Coast then. Close the travel offices and have one member of staff standing around in the middle of a room surrounded by self service machines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach Travel Office Policy rolled out to East Coast then. Close the travel offices and have one member of staff standing around in the middle of a room surrounded by self service machines.

It sounds to me very much like the open-plan ticket office at Euston which works quite well, and is laid out to direct you first to the machines but then to the desks, which are a bit more friendly than usual because they aren't behind glass.

As for Travel Centres I don't see much point in these any more, as the vast majority of advance bookings are done via the Web. The normal ticket office can handle the few that aren't.

Neil

 

[adrock1976]

Travel Centres could also serve as a double function as local info points for visitors.

In peace

Adam

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hence East Coast Rewards to be axed and replaced by a lousy Nectar scheme.

You have until September to use up EC Rewards or convert them to Nectar points, according to this: .http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/virgintrainseastcoast/

If you’re a member of the existing East Coast Rewards scheme and have Reward Points to use, you can redeem them against the current scheme up until 30 September 2015, or simply convert them straight into Nectar points.
We’ll be contacting all members of the East Coast Rewards scheme to provide full information on how to exchange or redeem existing Reward Points

 

[fairysdad]

When do the new IEP (Intercity Express Programme) trains come into service? Will you be introducing new trains to the service?

We’ll be rolling out our 65 brand new Super Express trains from 2018, delivering a new standard of on-train service.

In other words... Virgin will take all the credit for introducing new trains, that belong to them, so when their franchise expires and gets awarded to another company, the public will be up in arms about them losing their new trains...

 

[thealexweb]

The more Stagecoach reveals about this new franchise the worse it gets. The only good thing that I've heard over the past few days is that some of the existing rolling stock (225) may be retained. It really is worrying....

 

[manxqueenies]

The recent Q&A is decidedly vague re catering offering, particularly first class post the transition. Have I missed the communication or is there an indication of what the complimentary first class service will be post transition to Virgin? Whilst only a once/twice a year ALR traveller - I have been more impressed with East Coast over Virgin catering, I am planning a trip in late April - unsure when I'll get sight of the EC offering so any info I've missed would be good to know....

 

[ModernRailways]

The more Stagecoach reveals about this new franchise the worse it gets. The only good thing that I've heard over the past few days is that some of the existing rolling stock (225) may be retained. It really is worrying....

Thank you! Reading through the small FAQ on the East Coast site from there plans there is nothing on there that seems to be screaming out improvement. They've answered the questions very corporate style by giving murky answers that doesn't say something bad will happen but that it isn't planned (yet...). The fares price is also avoided saying there won't be any changes on 1st March (obviously), but that the only ticket prices coming down is Standard Anytime and how many people purchase them!?

They're claiming they're responsible for the new trains saying 'We’ll be rolling out our 65 brand new Super Express trains from 2018' does that mean they'll be moving to another route if Stagecoach lose it come 2023? Of course not, they aren't Stagecoach's. Govia worded their press release for TSGN very well saying 'introducing three new fleets of trains' that doesn't say they are Govia's trains, but that they are only simply introducing them.

I don't know why but I have an odd feeling that this franchise isn't going to be fantastic and will be a huge let down. We haven't had many positives, in fact what has been positive? They are getting rid of the loyalty scheme, instead replacing it with Nectar. They are replacing the online booking system (likely to the current West Coast style interface/Trainline), ticket prices will be rising etc.

 

[ItchyRsole]

My brother works for Thameslink (Govia) who have a reciprocal agreement that all staff can use East Coast services at the weekends. Been in place for years. Does anyone know if that agreement will change under the new ownership?

Thanks.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I don't know much about trains, except using them, but I am keen on loyalty schemes so when I read East Coast was moving to Nectar I had to start some sort of online protest so that hopefully the general public will realise it's such a poor deal. By Sunday on my website I hope to have a comparison between EC Rewards and Nectar, showing whether you spend £50 or £5000 a year on rail tickets you'll be worse off under Nectar. I'm trying to get people on Twitter to follow @SaveECRewards and use the hash tag #SaveEastCoastRewards when appropriate.

I wish I'd discovered this site earlier. Apart from Nectar all the other announcements sounded positive to me but from what I've read here things may be worse that we are expecting. I hadn't realised 'Customer Zones' really meant reducing the counter staff in ticket offices.

However, my personal feeling is that the East Coast booking engine is safe. The Virgin page clearly states "There will be a rebrand of the existing East Coast website and online booking process". To me that sounds like the existing site will just be rebranded. Remember when the NXEC website changed into East Coast overnight, same functionality, just different look.

A combination of thetrainline.com + Nectar would be enough to scare people away who are used to the convenience of the superior booking engine.

I'm currently researching into options for booking tickets if we can't save East Coast Rewards. So far it seems Virgin West Coast only gives points for Virgin travel, but First Group franchises give points for all travel, so if Nectar is the only option it'll be better to ditch Virgin and book all tickets through First.

They do claim that EC will be the first UK rail franchise that you'll be able to spend Nectar points on, but if you look at the rates for Eurostar and easyJet they only offer the same rate as spending at Sainsbury's and they charge a booking fee higher than average when redeeming points (£10 on Eurostar). In other words being able to spend points is worthless, you might as well redeem them off your shopping.

 

[ModernRailways]

However, my personal feeling is that the East Coast booking engine is safe. The Virgin page clearly states "There will be a rebrand of the existing East Coast website and online booking process". To me that sounds like the existing site will just be rebranded. Remember when the NXEC website changed into East Coast overnight, same functionality, just different look.

A combination of thetrainline.com + Nectar would be enough to scare people away who are used to the convenience of the superior booking engine.

I'm currently researching into options for booking tickets if we can't save East Coast Rewards. So far it seems Virgin West Coast only gives points for Virgin travel, but First Group franchises give points for all travel, so if Nectar is the only option it'll be better to ditch Virgin and book all tickets through First.

They do claim that EC will be the first UK rail franchise that you'll be able to spend Nectar points on, but if you look at the rates for Eurostar and easyJet they only offer the same rate as spending at Sainsbury's and they charge a booking fee higher than average when redeeming points (£10 on Eurostar). In other words being able to spend points is worthless, you might as well redeem them off your shopping.

I imagine they will be switching to TheTrainline's booking system, which is different to the one currently used on the EastCoast site and will be more in line with the Virgin West Coast site. Maybe they will stick with the current one, but I highly doubt it.


As for booking tickets on a different site, I've said it multiple times now, but in my view Southern give the most advantages. Nectar points are fairly low value and don't give you much back, so I'm not too fussed about joining Nectar for what will be very minimal benefit (if I gain at all - I only shop at Tesco, and the majority of sites I use online don't use Nectar), so I'd rather gain a few more comforts. I also like the Southern website (it uses the same booking process as East Coast currently does), it's easy to use and is much more user-friendly to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The more Stagecoach reveals about this new franchise the worse it gets. The only good thing that I've heard over the past few days is that some of the existing rolling stock (225) may be retained. It really is worrying....

Why?

I think it sounds perfectly decent to me. A rewards/loyalty scheme is an incredibly minor thing compared with the rest of the service.

Though I say that as a reasonably satisfied regular VWC passenger.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They're claiming they're responsible for the new trains saying 'We’ll be rolling out our 65 brand new Super Express trains from 2018' does that mean they'll be moving to another route if Stagecoach lose it come 2023? Of course not, they aren't Stagecoach's. Govia worded their press release for TSGN very well saying 'introducing three new fleets of trains' that doesn't say they are Govia's trains, but that they are only simply introducing them.

The great majority of non-enthusiast rail users don't give a monkey's - the only thing that is relevant to them is the fact that they will be introduced. How they are paid for is about as relevant to the passenger as whether Tesco leases or purchases a given building they are opening a supermarket in.

Do VTEC get the credit for something they didn't design? Of course, but who cares if that brings in additional passengers?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ticket prices will be rising etc.

Anytime Singles and Returns are to be cut by 10%, are they not?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They do claim that EC will be the first UK rail franchise that you'll be able to spend Nectar points on, but if you look at the rates for Eurostar and easyJet they only offer the same rate as spending at Sainsbury's and they charge a booking fee higher than average when redeeming points (£10 on Eurostar). In other words being able to spend points is worthless, you might as well redeem them off your shopping.

...if you shop at Sainsbury's. Not everyone lives anywhere near one. There are loads of ways to collect Nectar points that aren't Sainsbury's, even if it was created off the back of their loyalty scheme.

I *very* occasionally shop at Sainsbury's and so earn most of them from British Gas.

Neil

 

[SaveECRewards]

...if you shop at Sainsbury's. Not everyone lives anywhere near one. There are loads of ways to collect Nectar points that aren't Sainsbury's, even if it was created off the back of their loyalty scheme.

I *very* occasionally shop at Sainsbury's and so earn most of them from British Gas.

Neil

What I mean is that Nectar points generally have the same almost worthless value whatever you spend them on. So if you spend £1000 you will get £10 of Nectar points to spend at Sainsbury's, BP, Eurostar, easyJet, wherever. What you can't do is convert those Nectar points into something decent with a higher value such as a couple of first class tickets.

Also if you look at Eurostar they charge a hefty booking fee (£10) to use your points, easyJet charge £11. If East Coast follows suit that will make redeeming points on the train even worse value.

From what I can see if we have to live with Nectar we're best off switching to the FGW booking engine which is the same as East Coast. First gives Nectar points on all tickets, so far Virgin West Coast only on their own and they also give points on online season tickets and Virgin EC have said no rewards for season ticket holders.

 

[Robertj21a]

What I mean is that Nectar points generally have the same almost worthless value whatever you spend them on. So if you spend £1000 you will get £10 of Nectar points to spend at Sainsbury's, BP, Eurostar, easyJet, wherever. What you can't do is convert those Nectar points into something decent with a higher value such as a couple of first class tickets.

Also if you look at Eurostar they charge a hefty booking fee (£10) to use your points, easyJet charge £11. If East Coast follows suit that will make redeeming points on the train even worse value.

From what I can see if we have to live with Nectar we're best off switching to the FGW booking engine which is the same as East Coast. First gives Nectar points on all tickets, so far Virgin West Coast only on their own and they also give points on online season tickets and Virgin EC have said no rewards for season ticket holders.

But how many people are really bothered about all these silly points, reward schemes etc. They've never interested me and I doubt that many other normal travellers are particularly concerned. It's just the usual add-on 'tat' that companies think will attract a few more customers (it does, but only a few).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do VTEC get the credit for something they didn't design? Of course, but who cares if that brings in additional passengers?

VTEC may not have designed or bought the IEPs but they do now have a say in how they are fitted out and operated, what the airlines call the "soft" product.
They also have the task of introducing them and migrating the maintenance regime from in-house to Hitachi (though FGW will have pioneered some of that).
You'd also expect the new franchisee to promote the trains as "theirs".
They will be paying through the nose to run them after all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But how many people are really bothered about all these silly points, reward schemes etc. They've never interested me and I doubt that many other normal travellers are particularly concerned. It's just the usual add-on 'tat' that companies think will attract a few more customers (it does, but only a few).

I prefer the paid-for benefit schemes like easyJet Plus, personally, provided what they offer is good value. A railway one might usefully include such things as dedicated "maybe reserved" seating, and perhaps an inclusive drink on board. You could even charge a bit more for it and give a discount on fares

Or with increasing numbers of businesses banning First Class travel, how about a subscription that allows unlimited upgrades to First Class for a year? Or a book of good value upgrades for where individuals would like to upgrade themselves out of their own pocket?

Neil

 

[jon0844]

In other words... Virgin will take all the credit for introducing new trains, that belong to them, so when their franchise expires and gets awarded to another company, the public will be up in arms about them losing their new trains...

There's a reason why despite the tiny percentage of involvement, the Virgin brand is going to be so vital to the service.

 

[455driver]

My brother works for Thameslink (Govia) who have a reciprocal agreement that all staff can use East Coast services at the weekends. Been in place for years. Does anyone know if that agreement will change under the new ownership?

Thanks.

Possibly,Probably,maybe!

Nobody knows but why would Stagecoach/Virgin give free travel to GoVia staff?

I used to work for SWT (run by Stagecoach) and despite Stagecoach having a 49% stake in Virgin West Coast Trains we got bugger all travel concessions on Virgin West Coast, we did get travel on EMT when Stagecoach took that over (actually a few months later) which was nice though!