Virgin to Launch London - Shrewsbury service?

[Polarbear]

If this comes off, (and I have to say I'll be surprised if it does), it will be at most one train a day each way. My reasoning is as below.

Firstly, resourcing trains & crew will be an issue. I assume the 221's are used fairly intensively as things stand given the likes of jollies to Lancaster & Holyhead?

Secondly, line speeds via the Sutton Hill route can't be fast & I can't see VT pumping lost of £££'s into fettling up the track for 2 trains a day.

To be honest, if VT wanted to go to Telford & Shrewsbury, I can't see why they wouldn't just diagram a 221 from there through Wolves & B'ham NS? If running in the peaks, it could run non stop from BNS to Euston to avoid overcrowding & keep up with pendo timings. They don't have another company looking over their shoulder waiting to run to the law courts every time someone tries to pinch two penneth' worth of revenue from them!

On the subject of competition, I am all for fair & open competition. However, Virgin's agreement with the DFT is used far too often to stifle potential "competitors". They objected vociferiously against WMSR, (as did Arriva Trains Wales) on the basis of abstraction of revenue & this has led to the present arrangement with WMSR not being able to pick up southbound/set down northbound at Wolverhampton & not picking up/setting down at all at B'ham International, despite some of their services being routed that way.

Virgin have also used the moderation of competition to hike their anytime returns to eye watering levels. If anyone can explain to me how an anytime return from Chester to London at £201 represents value for money, I would be most entertained!:roll:

 

[Failed Unit]

Almost.

Virgin legally have to oppose.



I don't have to explain anything to you.

As I just said they MUST oppose, that is 'what right' they had.

Interested why did they legally have to oppose? Does it say in the contract set by DaFT that all competition should be opposed?

The issue of spare voyagers is a good one though - would this only be if Virgin got new pendilinos (to replace the voyagers running on Euston - Lancaster etc runs)?

I don't think 1 train per day will be much of a threat to WSRC really, but another angle is that the extra pendo's are for overcrowding relief not extra services to new destinations.

The interesting contrast is that GNER/ NXEC haven't tried to "compete" with Hull Trains or Grand Central (apart from diverting the one Hull service a day via Selby) - they've concentrated on their "main line" services. However, Virgin have been quick to compete at the Wrexham end of W&S - now they are looking at the Shrewsbury end too...

I think that the they would have struggled with the stock they have, for example to complete directly with HT they would have needed to make a choice Leeds half-hourly or send some HST's to Hull. Leeds is worth more money for a start but it would have cause a nasty reaction if Leeds lost out so GNER / NXEC could compete with an open access operator.

Likewise on Sunderland, look at the current timetable and you have the 18:20 and 18:30 to Newcastle, both are not needed for Darlington, Durham and Newcastles demand so one of them could be diagrammed around Sunderland without too much hardship. But GNER had stated when they bid for the Franchise that no business case existed for Lincoln and Sunderland (can't remember about Hull). So they would have egg on the face if they suddenly started running to those places to squash an open access operator.

Virgins arrival into Wrexham is really using stock that would not be doing much, but why not start the Lancaster Voyager at Blackpool instead - Virgin are not interested in new markets? If we are going to allow open access onto the network it is only right that franchised companies can defend and counter compete! But only if the open access operator is allowed to fight on equal terms. I think that is what is getting most peoples backs up in the Virgin case. WSRC are not allowed to pick up at Wolverhampton (for London), stop at New Street or International at all and are not allowed into Euston. If Virgin are allowed this service then WSRC should at the very least be allowed full rights at Wolverhampton and Birmingham International.

I don't think WSRC running to Euston on the slow lines will be a major problem, HT started off on the slow lines of the ECML (although they were not banned from the fast). I used Silverlink from London - Birmingham International due to them been 1/3 cheaper than Virgin at the time of day I wanted to travel. Comfort, Customer service and price will be the winner in this case.

 

[tbtc]

the extra pendo's are for overcrowding relief not extra services to new destinations.

Virgins arrival into Wrexham is really using stock that would not be doing much, but why not start the Lancaster Voyager at Blackpool instead

I was thinking that the Pendos would replace at least a couple of Voyagers (the Voyagers that currently run on Lancaster and Birmingham services) - do they plan to give these to AXC, or use them for other services like to Shrewsbry?

You make an interesting point about Blackpool. The only reason I can think of *not* to serve it is that they don't intend to run Voyagers on the Lancaster terminators longer term, so couldn't run to Blackpool then.

I think that the they would have struggled with the stock they have, for example to complete directly with HT they would have needed to make a choice Leeds half-hourly or send some HST's to Hull. Leeds is worth more money for a start but it would have cause a nasty reaction if Leeds lost out so GNER / NXEC could compete with an open access operator.

Likewise on Sunderland, look at the current timetable and you have the 18:20 and 18:30 to Newcastle, both are not needed for Darlington, Durham and Newcastles demand so one of them could be diagrammed around Sunderland without too much hardship. But GNER had stated when they bid for the Franchise that no business case existed for Lincoln and Sunderland (can't remember about Hull). So they would have egg on the face if they suddenly started running to those places to squash an open access operator

I'm not up on my diagrams, but there certaily used to be some HSTs that ran started at Newcastle to run Newcastle - KX in the morning and finished at Newcastle after running KX - Newcastle in the evening(?). So these could potentially start to/from Sunderland (whilst keeping the same times from Newcastle to/from KX), or run via the Durham coast?

 

[The Planner]

If this comes off, (and I have to say I'll be surprised if it does), it will be at most one train a day each way. My reasoning is as below.

It is planned as a single train. The original reasoning behind it was that they had a unit not doing an awful lot after a Chester run, so they would put it to some use.

 

[TDK]

If this goes through I will be outraged - this is pure anti-competitive behaviour on the part of Virgin - simply trying to push out another company that could hardly be called a rival. I suppose I should expect nothing more...

If this happens, I do hope WSMR will try and push for use of the WCML down to London. Unlikely, but we can hope...

WSMR have no chance of utilising the WCML or picking up at Wolves or International until 2012. If Virgin pull this off it is direct competition with WSMR who are now seeing a huge increase in passenger numbers with many trains full to the hilt. Virgin introduced the Wrexham - London Service as direct competition to WSMR and this has not affected their passenger numbers but a link from Shrewsbury certainly will, ATW as well are trying to squeeze WSMR out by trying to introduce their Aber - London service. Lets hope passenger realise that the WSMR service is a lot more comfroatable with fantastice customer service and excellent food and the passengers that have used the service will continue to. It is a shame that the likes of Virgin and ATW who were the main opposition for the service starting in the first place who receive tax payers money to enhance their services are told to butt out.

 

[WillPS]

Can the voyagers use DMU speeds, I thought the were too heavy like the 185's are the South Pennie Route (among others). The 222's can take advantage of DMU speeds on Norwich-Liverpool.(I think).

Meridians/Pioneers have not been cleared to use differentials yet on the east side as far as I know. It took a while for even Turbostars to be cleared on this route, even though they're effectively an updated Sprinter!

Rule book quotes that only 185s are too fat and heavy to use differentials, 221s are fine for DMU speeds.

Super Voyagers are significantly heavier than Voyagers, Meridians and Pioneers due to their tilting equipment.

 

[Daimler]

WSMR have no chance of utilising the WCML or picking up at Wolves or International until 2012. If Virgin pull this off it is direct competition with WSMR who are now seeing a huge increase in passenger numbers with many trains full to the hilt. Virgin introduced the Wrexham - London Service as direct competition to WSMR and this has not affected their passenger numbers but a link from Shrewsbury certainly will, ATW as well are trying to squeeze WSMR out by trying to introduce their Aber - London service. Lets hope passenger realise that the WSMR service is a lot more comfroatable with fantastice customer service and excellent food and the passengers that have used the service will continue to. It is a shame that the likes of Virgin and ATW who were the main opposition for the service starting in the first place who receive tax payers money to enhance their services are told to butt out.

Aberystwyth to London? When's this happening? And at least as importantly, what will be hauling it?

 

[doubletrackemble]

According to this weeks Sutton Coldfield Observer, Virgin West Coast want to introduce a new service from London Euston to Shrewsbury, calling at Nuneaton, Coleshill Parkway, running via Sutton Park to Walsall, Wolverhampton, Telford Central and Shrewsbury. It could be introduced in December this year.

What route would it take from Nuneaton to Coleshill as the maps/aerials I'm looking at don't seem to show a route. Has a line now built through the Distribution Centre to link through to Coleshill station?

 

[matt]

What route would it take from Nuneaton to Coleshill as the maps/aerials I'm looking at don't seem to show a route. Has a line now built through the Distribution Centre to link through to Coleshill station?

Coleshill Parkway is on the Birmingham to Nuneaton line in between Water Orton and Whitacre Junction.

 

[clagmonster]

There always has been a through line. Used all the time by Leicester-New St services.

 

[doubletrackemble]

Sorry, confusion was caused by my 2007 road atlas showing the station as on the Water Orton to Kingsbury line section (unless there used to be a station on this section which was replaced by the new C Parkway?)

 

[tbtc]

Aberystwyth to London? When's this happening? And at least as importantly, what will be hauling it?

Arriva Trains Wales have a pdf on their website about this proposal for 158s to run the full way (from Birmingham International to London Marylebone) - could be December 2009 as an aspiration, but nothing concrete yet AFAIK

 

[Failed Unit]

Meridians/Pioneers have not been cleared to use differentials yet on the east side as far as I know. It took a while for even Turbostars to be cleared on this route, even though they're effectively an updated Sprinter!

Super Voyagers are significantly heavier than Voyagers, Meridians and Pioneers due to their tilting equipment.

Doh, I will correct the major typo in my orginal post and put the 't in! You are right the 222's can't use the sprinter speeds on Norwich - Liverpool. On the Nottingham - Sheffield section they can keep up, but I understand that it is still timetabled for a 156 anyway. However on Norwich - Ely when they trundle along at 30mph in some places they really lose time.

Digressing a bit, if I recall correctly the HST's could use the higher speeds on the Grimsby - Newark line. Is this because the sign just states 50/75 rather than 50 / 75sp or 50/75DMU which exist in other areas?

Back on the topic, another post raised the point that the Voyager isn't doing much in the day. Maybe true, but again why not run a return to Blackpool with it, a town without a direct train to London but significant demand at least in the summer. I would also be interested to know if Virgin have lost any passengers from Shrewsbury as a result of WSRC coming along. I just can't see them been a threat with them not been allowed to pick up at Wolverhampton and Birmingham. (Again some people may drive to Tame Bridge instead of fighting thier way into Birmingham but how many)

 

[D841]

On the subject of competition, I am all for fair & open competition. However, Virgin's agreement with the DFT is used far too often to stifle potential "competitors". They objected vociferiously against WMSR, (as did Arriva Trains Wales) on the basis of abstraction of revenue & this has led to the present arrangement with WMSR not being able to pick up southbound/set down northbound at Wolverhampton & not picking up/setting down at all at B'ham International, despite some of their services being routed that way.

I quite agree. I would love to see this moderation of competition agreement face a legal challenge at European level. I suspect that HMG's protectionist policy might not stand up too well, and that it might contravene European Competition law. Don't forget Open Access is an EU idea for creating a competitive environment. Just because we have a franchising system thought up by Government doesn't mean that they can ignore it at will. The ORR seems to have grasped this, even if DafT hasn't.

 

[Proud Salopian]

2 trains per day each way...

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2009/02/23/virgin-plans-london-rail-link/

Would they definitely be Super Voyagers? No chance of loco-hauled?

 

[Chafford1]

I quite agree. I would love to see this moderation of competition agreement face a legal challenge at European level. I suspect that HMG's protectionist policy might not stand up too well, and that it might contravene European Competition law. Don't forget Open Access is an EU idea for creating a competitive environment. Just because we have a franchising system thought up by Government doesn't mean that they can ignore it at will. The ORR seems to have grasped this, even if DafT hasn't.

WSMR won't make a challenge until DfT have approved Chiltern's franchise extension later this year.

 

[The Planner]

2 trains per day each way...

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2009/02/23/virgin-plans-london-rail-link/

Would they definitely be Super Voyagers? No chance of loco-hauled?

No chance, the paths wouldnt be quick enough. Its 221 based.

 

[Philip Elliott]

2 trains per day each way...

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2009/02/23/virgin-plans-london-rail-link/

Would they definitely be Super Voyagers? No chance of loco-hauled?

What locos and what stock? No locos do 125mph tilting so best to stick to the Voyagers. Traincrew issues may well scupper the plan though.

 

[D841]

WSMR won't make a challenge until DfT have approved Chiltern's franchise extension later this year.

_Very_ interesting, thanks!