Virgin Trains giving incorrect advice

[roversfan2001]

Due to strike action by Northern, I was unable to complete my journey by rail (contract was formed on the basis of a full timetable as I booked the tickets before the strike timetable was released). There was no Northern staff at Preston so I asked a member of Virgin staff if they would be able to arrange onward transport for me (in line with the NRCoT) and was flatly refused. After explaining it was a contractual right and being told it wasn't their problem, I gave up and got the bus home (at my own cost).

I then emailed both Virgin (about the staff member) and Northern (they cancelled the train). I'm still waiting for a reply from Northern however this is an extract from the email Virgin sent to me.

When you're travelling, the contract to get to your end destination lies with the company who you are intending to travel with. If there are no alternative options available for onward travel, it is the responsibility of the company who are unable to get you where you need to be, and also their responsibility to resolve this

Whilst I am sorry to hear you felt our staff weren't as helpful as you wanted them to be, it wouldn't be Virgin Trains' liability to convey you to your end destination, however we take on all feedback and will make sure your comments are passed over to the relevant teams.

This is completely wrong and contradicts the National Rail of Conditions of Travel:

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

What Northern told me in reference to a separate incident matches the NRCoT (although they did leave me stranded and it was only me spending half an hour trying to get the attention of a member of Virgin staff in an office that meant I got home).

I consider this to be a serious erosion of passenger rights and would like to take this further, but I'm not sure if it's really worth it.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Due to strike action by Northern, I was unable to complete my journey by rail (contract was formed on the basis of a full timetable as I booked the tickets before the strike timetable was released). There was no Northern staff at Preston so I asked a member of Virgin staff if they would be able to arrange onward transport for me (in line with the NRCoT) and was flatly refused. After explaining it was a contractual right and being told it wasn't their problem, I gave up and got the bus home (at my own cost).

I then emailed both Virgin (about the staff member) and Northern (they cancelled the train). I'm still waiting for a reply from Northern however this is an extract from the email Virgin sent to me.


This is completely wrong and contradicts the National Rail of Conditions of Travel:



What Northern told me in reference to a separate incident matches the NRCoT (although they did leave me stranded and it was only me spending half an hour trying to get the attention of a member of Virgin staff in an office that meant I got home).

I consider this to be a serious erosion of passenger rights and would like to take this further, but I'm not sure if it's really worth it.

I don't think there's anything really that has to be clarified; there is no ambiguity in the word "any" in the NRCoT.

What Virgin are clearly missing is that the wording of NRCoT 28.2 clearly shows that the contract is actually always with every TOC, but that the vast majority of rights are only exercisable in respect of those TOCs whose services your ticket permits you to use. It's only alternative transport or accomodation that the TOCs are all jointly and severally liable for, to the extent that they were reasonable able to provide it. That for example is the reason why you couldn't ask c2c to assist you, because it's not reasonable to expect them to be able to produce a taxi at the other end of the country to where they operate. However, Virgin manage Preston station so it would take an extraordinary set of events for them to be unable to reasonably assist you with onward travel.

I say: go full on on them. If internal customer services 'appeals' fail, send a Letter Before Action, and if that still fails, take out a County Court claim. It's not expensive, and you will get the fee back.

 

[roversfan2001]

I've replied to their email quoting the relevant condition in the CoT and explaining that this means they would be liable to get passengers to their destination regardless of the TOC they would have travelled with. Hopefully they won't do what Northern did and ring me up to accuse me of travelling on a child rate ticket then only give me Delay Repay as a "gesture of goodwill" as they took so long to reply that if I was to submit a claim it would be denied as it had been over 28 days. Unfortunately I didn't have the time to express my disappointment.

 

[roversfan2001]

It's only a £2.40 bus fare (plus Delay Repay which Northern are liable for) but it's the principle that they openly excused themselves from the contract. If I did that I'd be prosecuted.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's only a £2.40 bus fare (plus Delay Repay which Northern are liable for) but it's the principle that they openly excused themselves from the contract. If I did that I'd be prosecuted.

Oh absolutely. You can't have a double standard; old Northern's PR-spin comment some years ago that "all those 10p's add up to some £210m a year [in fare evasion losses]" is probably equally apt in the opposite direction, in terms of unclaimed delay compensation and particularly more recently, operators just abandoning passengers and refusing to reimburse incurred expenses.

It's all too unfortunate that Parliament has hamstrung the otherwise extremely wideranging powers which could be exercised against the TOCs and similar organisations, such as consumer protection law, in restricting who can prosecute offences to a range of ineffective and useless regulators.

 

[roversfan2001]

Oh absolutely. You can't have a double standard; old Northern's PR-spin comment some years ago that "all those 10p's add up to some £210m a year [in fare evasion losses]" is probably equally apt in the opposite direction, in terms of unclaimed delay compensation and particularly more recently, operators just abandoning passengers and refusing to reimburse incurred expenses.

It's all too unfortunate that Parliament has hamstrung the otherwise extremely wideranging powers which could be exercised against the TOCs and similar organisations, such as consumer protection law, in restricting who can prosecute offences to a range of ineffective and useless regulators.

The rumours that Northern are skint do tally well with experiences I have had. Delay Repay 15 won't be a welcome addition I'm sure; it'd certainly lead to me claiming 2-3 times a week based on the past month of commuting.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, Virgin Trains are often wrong when it comes to this sort of thing, whether it be on Twitter, by email or in person. Your experience is consistent with that of several other people. I am not surprised in the slightest.

I consider this to be a serious erosion of passenger rights and would like to take this further, but I'm not sure if it's really worth it.

Yes, I think they are banking on that.

Unless the sums are large, it's not worth pursuing. And there is currently no ombudsman who can do anything about it.

You can try Transport Focus, which gets mixed results, and may not be worth the effort.

Mistreatment of passengers is rife at certain train companies and they don't care how bad their reputation gets; they know most passengers have no choice but to continue using their services. It's not like any other industry I know of.

 

[gray1404]

Your understanding of the NRCoT here is correct and as VT manage Preston they had a duty to get you to your destination. They failed and their reply to you is dreadful. I see you have responded to them quoting the NRCoT so it will be interesting to see if they admit they are in the wrong in their reply. I would certainly take this to a Transport Focus. What if you had been travelling much further and been left stranded in Preston.

There is a pass the buck mentality now on the railways to whichever TOC caused the delay rather then the TOC which manages the station sorting it out. I had a LM delay leave me stranded in Liverpool Lime St once. Northern refused to help as it was LM who caused the delay. When I complained afterwards Northern maintained their position even though they are the company responsible for assisting customers at LIV. LM refused to refund my taxi on the basis Northern should have arranged it. However they did refund it once I escalated the case to their Customer service manager.