Voter ID

[crehld]

The government is going to start a pilot where voters in some parts of England will be asked to provide ID to confirm their address in order to vote. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38440934

Currently (except for Northern Iteland) it is unlawful for polling station staff to request ID from voters (they are allowed to ask a set of prescribed questions to determine the identity of a voter, to which anyone can lie in response). Now, I don't have a problem with this in principle (most democracies do require IDto vote). However the approvided forms of ID will a passport, a driver's licence or a utility bill. A passport doesn't not constitute a proof of address, and anyone with a computer and a word processing programme can knock up a convincing fake electricity bill in a matter of minutes. Furthermore, not everyone has a passport or driver's licence, and utility bills will not list everyone eligible to vote in the property.

So clearly this is another poorly thought through piece of government policy... Or perhaps it's nothing more than meaningless gimmick designed to distract attention from other government failings?

 

[miami]

Is there a real issue with in person electoral fraud? No.
Is there a real issue with voter disenfranchisement? Yes.

What will this move do? Increase the latter.

 

[crehld]

Is there a real issue with in person electoral fraud? No.
Is there a real issue with voter disenfranchisement? Yes.

What will this move do? Increase the latter.

I fear you are correct.

 

[yorksrob]

I must admit, I have read of a few instances of electoral fraud and these seem to have fallen into one of two categories:

1: People harvesting armfulls of postal votes and completing them fraudulently away from prying eyes.

2: "community leaders" leaning on members of their said community to vote in a particular way.

It's hard to see how either of these types of circumstances could be prevented by the current proposal. The first would require some sort of check on the request of postal votes I.e. Requiring people to request them in person as used to be the case (I'm not aware of anything along these lines being proposed). The second relies on vigilance and the proper investigation of individuals complaints.

The polling station set up is already a very difficult environment in which to carry out an effective fraud. An individual would most likely be noticed if they tried to fraudulently steal votes more than once at the same station, which in turn would make it difficult to affect the outcome. There are procedures for tendered ballots, I.e. where someone requests a vote against a name that has already been marked off as having voted.

I fear that these proposals are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[SS4]

Voter ID won't do a thing to address the larger problems with our elections

Instead of doing something actually democratic and abolishing FPTP in favour of STV the government seeks to make it less democratic by restricting voting rights (and gerrymandering)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The government is going to start a pilot where voters in some parts of England will be asked to provide ID to confirm their address in order to vote. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38440934

What steps will then be taken to ensure the stated validity of postal votes that would be cast in the same trial areas, in order to provide a similar amount of proof?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there a real issue with in person electoral fraud? No.
Is there a real issue with voter disenfranchisement? Yes.

What will this move do? Increase the latter.

Agreed. This rather reeks of an attempt to restrict the ability of the poor and minorities to exercise their right to vote, especially as one of the pilot areas is Bradford. We've seen how voter ID laws have been used in the USA and this seems to be very similar. Electoral fraud is not a major issue either side of the pond, but nevertheless the invented fear of electoral fraud is used in very sinister ways.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't have a problem with this in principle (most democracies do require IDto vote). However the approvided forms of ID will a passport, a driver's licence or a utility bill. A passport doesn't not constitute a proof of address, and anyone with a computer and a word processing programme can knock up a convincing fake electricity bill in a matter of minutes. Furthermore, not everyone has a passport or driver's licence, and utility bills will not list everyone eligible to vote in the property.

So clearly this is another poorly thought through piece of government policy... Or perhaps it's nothing more than meaningless gimmick designed to distract attention from other government failings?

It's hard not to notice that the people most likely not to have any of the forms of ID you have listed are poorer people, and younger people - especially those living in shared houses - exactly the kind of people who traditionally are least likely to vote Conservative. If I was in the Government, and I wanted to slightly gerrymander the system by making it harder for people who are likely to be Labour and LibDem supporters to vote, this is almost exactly the kind of thing I'd do.

 

[Howardh]

Surprised we still don't have to pay to vote - fiver each? Tenner?

C'mon, Tories, privatise the General Election. You know you want to...

 

[Barn]

The better solution would probably be to abolish the right to a postal vote, and allow them only for people who are housebound, with a doctor's note.

 

[pemma]

The better solution would probably be to abolish the right to a postal vote, and allow them only for people who are housebound, with a doctor's note.

So people on holiday or needing to be away from home for work on the day of the election can't vote? Great idea! :roll:

 

[Barn]

So people on holiday or needing to be away from home for work on the day of the election can't vote? Great idea! :roll:

There may be other reasons to claim a postal vote (although they should be one-off applications for each vote for a specific reason rather than a standing instruction).

The permanent entitlement to a postal vote for every election is not some ancient right. It came in only in 2001 and there are fears that it has been significantly abused. Remember that there is also the proxy system, which is used by most of my colleagues when posted abroad.

 

[MotCO]

So people on holiday or needing to be away from home for work on the day of the election can't vote? Great idea! :roll:

I agree that postal votes is most open to electoral fraud, and agree that it should be more difficult than it currently is to regster for a postal vote. Further, I believe that currently, once you ask for a postal vote, this can be in perpetuity.

I would prefer a system of a 'permanent' application for a postal vote for those with a permanent medical condition or similar which makes attending a polling station difficult, and a 'single use' application for a postal vote for those who are unable to vote because they are away from their usual address at the time of the election.

 

[pemma]

The permanent entitlement to a postal vote for every election is not some ancient right. It came in only in 2001 and there are fears that it has been significantly abused. Remember that there is also the proxy system, which is used by most of my colleagues when posted abroad.

Which is also open to abuse. A relative of mine was on holiday when it was the last general election and a Conservative Party canvasser on hearing she was on holiday on election day offered to be her proxy to which she replied "No thank you I've already voted by post and didn't vote Conservative." I wonder if the kind Conservative Party canvasser would have been happy to put an X next to a Labour, Lib Dem, Green or UKIP candidate?

 

[Phil.]

Is there a real issue with in person electoral fraud? No.
Is there a real issue with voter disenfranchisement? Yes.

What will this move do? Increase the latter.

For voter fraud I would refer you to the corruption that was the Tower Hamlets Mayoral election. It was shameful.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-electoral-fraud-tower-hamlets-a7187326.html

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, but that sort of thing is not going to be stopped by demanding PAPERS from everyone who attempts to vote.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I may be labouring under a misapprehension, but from what I recall, under the terms of the Identity Documents Act 2011, any previously issued identity cards ceased to be legal documents as from 21st January 2011.

I ask for information if there has been any subsequent laws passed that have brought in an officially legal replacement system.

 

[HSTEd]

Certain classes of non EU migrants are still required to carry identification cards like those that were issued under the previous ID card scheme.
But otherwise you are correct.

 

[pemma]

I may be labouring under a misapprehension, but from what I recall, under the terms of the Identity Documents Act 2011, any previously issued identity cards ceased to be legal documents as from 21st January 2011.

I remember that happening. Some North West residents were offered the chance to buy UK identity cards as part of a trial and were told they could be used in lieu of a passport for travel within the EU (in common with other EU countries) and they were very annoyed when the new government told them their identity cards were no longer valid for anything.

 

[tony_mac]

From the figures in the report, there is approximately 1 allegation of personation at the election booth from about every 1 million votes cast - which is acknowledged as being a low number.

However, "there is a concern that the absence of evidence does not mean this practice is not taking place."
Which is an argument you can use to justify almost anything...

 

[507021]

Is there a real issue with in person electoral fraud? No.
Is there a real issue with voter disenfranchisement? Yes.

What will this move do? Increase the latter.

I couldn't agree more with this, Paul. I suspect very few people will go to the effort of obtaining a form of identification such as a passport or driving licence just so they can vote.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

People who do not drive have no need of a driving licence and I wonder if passports would be needed more in future, even though some people never go abroad.

 

[Howardh]

People who do not drive have no need of a driving licence and I wonder if passports would be needed more in future, even though some people never go abroad.

Are we just being buttered up for a post-Brexit ID card?

 

[AlterEgo]

Are we just being buttered up for a post-Brexit ID card?

I don't see why such a card would be a necessarily bad thing.

 

[SS4]

I don't see why such a card would be a necessarily bad thing.

A de facto compulsory ID card goes against the history of this country as a liberal democracy and with May pushing "British Values" (whatever they are) it doesn't help. It's still not bad by itself but it does make me feel uneasy. I wonder if this will ever be rolled out to richer parts of the country :roll:

More sinister is how the national ID card data/information will be stored (assuming government incompetence ever gets a database off the ground) and how it'll link in with other government databases

 

[AM9]

A de facto compulsory ID card goes against the history of this country as a liberal democracy and with May pushing "British Values" (whatever they are) it doesn't help. It's still not bad by itself but it does make me feel uneasy. I wonder if this will ever be rolled out to richer parts of the country :roll: ...

Of course not! Rich people (often aka Conservative voters), don't do fraudulent things do they?

 

[jon0844]

As we move further to the right, I am sure we'll get ID cards one day.

Actually, I'm not entirely against ID cards. It IS good to have a recognised ID card that anyone can get, so you won't have to drive or have a passport to be able to prove who you are.

In the case of going to a polling station, it wouldn't be the evil Government checking on you, so I don't have a problem with that either.

Thing is, what's to stop someone just voting for who they've been told do (perhaps even paid to)? And surely postal votes are where the bulk of the fraud is? ID cards don't help there at all.

 

[AlterEgo]

A de facto compulsory ID card goes against the history of this country as a liberal democracy and with May pushing "British Values" (whatever they are) it doesn't help

How? There are quite a few "liberal democracies" (whatever they are ) with ID cards.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course not! Rich people (often aka Conservative voters), don't do fraudulent things do they?

Hands on heart, being one of those who totally match your description, I most certainly have never committed such an offence as that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So clearly this is another poorly thought through piece of government policy... Or perhaps it's nothing more than meaningless gimmick designed to distract attention from other government failings?

I have serious issues with this policy unless a National ID card is introduced; too many people (as I well know from doing DBS checks in Scouting) simply don't own enough ID, and it is getting worse as more things get electronic.

It seems in the UK if you are billed for everything electronically (as should be encouraged so as not to waste paper), don't travel abroad and don't drive, you are persona-non-grata. That is not OK, as it's the most vulnerable people in society who tend to fit that description.

And all it would take to solve would be a "non-driving driving licence", not something big and complex like the abandoned national identity register.