Wales & Borders Franchise

[PHILIPE]

First task of the 2018 re-franchising process - Bang heads together

 

[a good off]

The best fit for the cross border services is within the Wales and Borders franchise, the way things are now. Carving the franchise up into Wales only services and shoehorning the other services into whatever English franchise is nearby would be a pointless waste of time and money, when the franchise needs help RIGHT NOW. The only people who think it'll do any good are mandarins in Cardiff Bay who don't know a thing about how to run a transport service but think that everything and everyone should run to Cardiff.

Fine, let the WG have a say on the franchise, but the best cure for its current issues is more stock RIGHT NOW, not chaos whilst the current franchise is ripped into pieces followed by anger as passengers are forced to change at Shrewsbury/Chester since passenger demands don't match up to political dreams.
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What services are you travelling on? Whilst I've agreed previously that the franchise needs extra stock asap, under normal circumstances it's very rare for people to be standing on the marches. By normal circumstances, I mean the right stock allocations (almost all of the services booked for 2 cars are quiet enough to cope with them) on the day, and no special events on. When services on that get line get extremely busy,its normally due to stock shortages shrinking certain services, or special events taking place. The only exception to that are the school services in and out of Hereford, but even they they normally only have people standing between Leominster.

Things are bad I know, and my definition of "normal circumstances" doesn't happen as often as it should, which is why more stock is needed urgently, but I don't believe that you"very rarely" get a seat.

We don't really have any set time of day or services that we go on. However, if you don't believe me, I'm not bothered. For the last 5 times, both my wife and I have had to stand in the vestibule going north and south from Hereford. There isn't enough provision for the amount of luggage people carry on that route either. Add a bike or two and it ends in tears.

 

[PHILIPE]

I know it will be a fudge but that's how it's panning out. Wales and Waet ran Manchester Piccadilt to Pontypridd and Barry diagrams with 158's.

Sorry Gareth. Only as far as Radyr. I remember the train - I was involved in the diagramming of it. Barry, Penarth and Coryton are OK.
Similarly 156's are also 23m length stock so taboo beyond Radyr.

 

[gareth950]

Sorry Gareth. Only as far as Radyr. I remember the train - I was involved in the diagramming of it. Barry, Penarth and Coryton are OK.
Similarly 156's are also 23m length stock so taboo beyond Radyr.

What about to Barry Island? If the problem with stock over 20m is with tight curves, then I can't see how 156's/153's/158's could be allowed on what has got to be the tightest curve on the valleys network between Barry and Barry Island.

If 156s and 158s can't usefully be deployed across the whole valleys network then the next best option must be to deploy them elsewhere across Wales and cascading as many 150/2s as possible to the valleys from West Wales and up North.

Saying that, splitting services at Radyr shouldn't prevent 156s and 158s from being deployed to the valleys. After all, the current proposals for the Metro are likely to see traditional through services from the valleys to Barry and Penarth split at Cardiff Central.

 

[headshot119]

What about to Barry Island? If the problem with stock over 20m is with tight curves, then I can't see how 156's/153's/158's could be allowed on what has got to be the tightest curve on the valleys network between Barry and Barry Island.

153/155/156/158/159 are cleared Barry Junction - Barry Island, it's not really to do with how tight curves are, but whether or not the vehicle will hit anything due to the overhang.

If 156s and 158s can't usefully be deployed across the whole valleys network then the next best option must be to deploy them elsewhere across Wales and cascading as many 150/2s as possible to the valleys from West Wales and up North.

158s are not suitable for the Valley Lines, even on the routes on which they are cleared, the door layout, and time it takes to open and close doesn't lend itself well the the frequent station stops.

156s are more suitable, but are still slow compared to 150s and 14X, in terms of loading and unloading.

Saying that, splitting services at Radyr shouldn't prevent 156s and 158s from being deployed to the valleys. After all, the current proposals for the Metro are likely to see traditional through services from the valleys to Barry and Penarth split at Cardiff Central.

I can't see the metro proposals going ahead, Cardiff Central doesn't have enough platforms to handle splitting all the Valley lines services in half.

 

[Solaris]

In case you hadn't spotted...

The WG procurement for the next W&B franchise and the construction of the SW Metro has already started....

www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/Search_View.aspx?id=JUL144353

expectations for £3-5Bn and different management of core valley lines.

WG set out their vision and aspirations for core valleys/metro some time ago...

http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en

Looks a bit "light rail" like...

 

[Doctor Fegg]

So the Welsh Government has a policy of deliberately withdrawing rail services in England? And the evidence?

I wouldn't go so far as saying "withdrawing", but as is well chronicled, Church Stretton and Craven Arms haven't exactly done well out of recent changes to the HOWL timetable at the behest of the Welsh Government.

We don't really have any set time of day or services that we go on. However, if you don't believe me, I'm not bothered. For the last 5 times, both my wife and I have had to stand in the vestibule going north and south from Hereford. There isn't enough provision for the amount of luggage people carry on that route either. Add a bike or two and it ends in tears.

+1. The Marches line is consistently the worst line for overcrowding that I travel on, worse even than XC Oxford-Birmingham, though I'm lucky enough not to have to endure any part of GTR. (It is also one of the most, shall we say, optimistically priced.) I'm genuinely surprised by craigybagel's suggestion that "it's very rare for people to be standing on the marches" - that doesn't tally with my experience at all.

 

[gareth950]

In case you hadn't spotted...

The WG procurement for the next W&B franchise and the construction of the SW Metro has already started....

www.sell2wales.gov.wales/search/show/Search_View.aspx?id=JUL144353

expectations for £3-5Bn and different management of core valley lines.

WG set out their vision and aspirations for core valleys/metro some time ago...

http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en

Looks a bit "light rail" like...

So what is being classed as the core valley Lines? Has this been defined yet? Eg. does it include the lines to Barry, Penarth and Bridgend via the Vale, which are currently included in the valley lines network operationally?
Or is what the WG are calling the core valley lines just everything north of Queen St? If so, this will likely involve light rail north of Central and heavy rail to Barry, Penarth and the Vale. How will this work exactly?

 

[Llanigraham]

Conwy Valley isn't in North Wales?

2 would involve the Welsh Assembly working with Rail North and WMCA so you've proved again you don't understand the issues with the franchise affecting England. If 2 is unworkable then the next franchise must be specified by Westminster not Cardiff.


So the Welsh don't care about Cardiff having a say in the new franchise as long as the trains are on time and clean? Problem sorted then Westminster will write the specification and they'll be a 20% increase in journey times. Oh and if the name doesn't matter how about Marches Railways?

And this proves that you do not understand the problems in the WHOLE of Wales and how it affects us in areas other then North Wales.

Your pedantry does not become you.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a suitable solution that is both workable for ATW, WAG and the english regions, but so far all I see is many people following Westminster's lead in having an anti-Welsh agenda.
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Yes the turf wars do have to stop, but judging by the tone of this thread, will they? It's not in the UK govt's interests for them to stop.

For those posting that the W&B franchise should be totally let by Westminster, that's not going to happen. The wheels are already in motion - companies have been bidding for the South Wales Metro contract that will be integrated into the W&B franchise, and this process is being handled by the WG's new transport body 'Transport for Wales'.

The turf wars could also be called political point scoring from the Conservatives who have never supported devolution. Andrew RT Davies even said recently that the WG should be entirely scrapped! (or words to that effect)
This nonsense of transferring cross border services could only serve one purpose - to leave Wales with a basket case franchise so come the 2020 election the Tories can say "look how much money the railways are losing in Wales with Labour in charge there", just like they were doing in the last 2 elections with the NHS. It's pathetic.

Coincidentally, the next reading of the Wales Bill is due in Parliament this week.
Let's see if it can actually make progress.

Quite!!
An anti-Welsh agenda in Westminster! But funnily enough the English contributors can't see it.

 

[PHILIPE]

What about to Barry Island? If the problem with stock over 20m is with tight curves, then I can't see how 156's/153's/158's could be allowed on what has got to be the tightest curve on the valleys network between Barry and Barry Island.

If 156s and 158s can't usefully be deployed across the whole valleys network then the next best option must be to deploy them elsewhere across Wales and cascading as many 150/2s as possible to the valleys from West Wales and up North.

Saying that, splitting services at Radyr shouldn't prevent 156s and 158s from being deployed to the valleys. After all, the current proposals for the Metro are likely to see traditional through services from the valleys to Barry and Penarth split at Cardiff Central.

There's also a tight curve at Cardiff between Queen St and Central and it isn't only Pacers that squeal round that Curve. 158s are OK. By the way, the City Line platforms (new stations) were only built accomodate 2 carriages of 20m length.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

So the Welsh Government has a policy of deliberately withdrawing rail services in England? And the evidence?

If control of the the franchise is devolved what would stop then doing so? It won't cost them any votes.

 

[tbtc]

I shouldn't think the Shrewsbury to Crewe locals would be transferred if Wales & Borders retains the South/West Wales to Manchester services as some of these supplement the local service, especially early morning, night and on Sundays.

Well, if the line from Newport to Swansea is going to be electrified, with talk of a Bristol - Swansea service, then the practicalities of a Manchester - Milford Haven service become harder to justify.

At the moment we have some ridiculously long diagrams, with three coach DMUs at Milford Haven whilst two coach DMUs are in Manchester. Electrify the line to Swansea and it becomes easier to justify splitting the vast majority of the service into three (with 75mph DMUs running most services west of Swansea).

In that case, there may be sufficient 100mph DMUs for a stand alone Manchester - Cardiff service, but as this will be 90% in England then it doesn't need to be part of a "Welsh" franchise any more (the Birmingham - Cardiff service isn't part of a "Welsh" franchise, the world kept spinning after through services from Birmingham to Swansea and west Wales were chopped).

I can see some 156/158's coming in and being used on valley lines until electrification to kill off pacers and then being cascaded out to rural Wales once the valleys wires are up.

Can't see 156's coming and 158s are only permitted to run on the Rhymney Valley route withing the Valleys themselves. They were not liked when they worked on the Rhymney line due to the tight schedules, frequent stops not suitable for the slow door opening/closure process.

I mentioned the need for 150s earlier in the thread.

Problem is, whilst other TOCs are jettisoning DMUs, they seem to be dumping Pacers (would need lots of money spending on them to bring them up to scratch, single units insufficient to cope with capacity, possibly not enough 143/144s for all Valley Lines services to be run by doubled up Pacers), or 153/ 156/ 158/ 170s that are too long for most Valley Lines diagrams.

The only options are:

1. Scrabble round for as many 150s as you can get from the churn at other TOCs
2. Bite the bullet and accept 230s for a few years
3. Hope that there's a manufacturer with sufficient spare capacity on their production line to build some self powered 20m units fairly urgently (though some deadlines are going to be looking pretty tight and other orders are already on the books)

Do you understand the problem in England? Rail North has control over the new Northern and TPE franchises, an equivalent Midlands body will have control over the new LM franchise. However, both bodies are powerless to intervene in the ATW fiasco which sees the cross-border routes - some of which are making a profit - being hampered by being in the same franchise as many loss making branch lines in Wales.

Is there any evidence of any W&B services actually making a profit? In fact, do any routes in the UK run by two coach DMUs make a profit?

The current franchise was let by DfT (well, the SRA) and then devolved to the WG to manage.
I think the WG has done quite well with the hand it was given, and I wouldn't accuse it of significant bias towards Welsh services

I'd have been tempted to agree, were it not for the WAG Express that found time to stop at Colwyn Bay etc but was non stop through Hereford, the obsession with a flagship hourly Holyhead - Cardiff service, ...

Do you really think that the majority of passengers give a fig about who the operator is? All they want to know is that their trains are roughly on time and clean!

You don't think that people would notice if the new franchise had something like West British Trains painted on the side?

I can't see the metro proposals going ahead, Cardiff Central doesn't have enough platforms to handle splitting all the Valley lines services in half.

I wish they'd forget the daydreaming about this "Metro" and focus on the day job of actually upgrading the Valley Lines in heavy-rail sense. It's like when you have an essay deadline looming, so you start daydreaming about something else instead to avoid worrying about the actual problems that you are facing.

Given the 1 January 2020 deadline, we don't have time to focus resources on some blue sky thinking mega-proposals (or building branchlines on Anglesey or other rural places like Brecon). Focus on the simple boring straightforward important stuff...

 

[Llanigraham]

If control of the the franchise is devolved what would stop then doing so? It won't cost them any votes.

What??:roll::roll::roll::roll:
Do you think that Welsh passengers only want to go to Welsh stations?
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You don't think that people would notice if the new franchise had something like West British Trains painted on the side?

Considering the number who still call it British Railways, no.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

What??:roll::roll::roll::roll:
Do you think that Welsh passengers only want to go to Welsh stations?

Just to be clear I don't have a problem with devolving control of the Wales and Borders franchise provided a mechanism is put in place to give the borders region some input into the new franchise alongside the Welsh government. What jcollins proposed earlier in the tread and you dismissed was a sensible suggestion for how devolving control away from Westminster but solving the lack of accountability of the Welsh Government to the Borders regions of England

Maybe the best idea is to do something similar to the next LM franchise, so there is a Welsh local business unit and a regional business unit with the Welsh Assembly having a lot of control over the local business unit but having to work with their English neighbours on the regional business unit?

Another dimension to this that has not been considered is I carn't imagine many Tory MP's in the Borders being happy at the idea of the Welsh Government being responsible for specifying the services in their constituencies.

 

[craigybagel]

We don't really have any set time of day or services that we go on. However, if you don't believe me, I'm not bothered. For the last 5 times, both my wife and I have had to stand in the vestibule going north and south from Hereford. There isn't enough provision for the amount of luggage people carry on that route either. Add a bike or two and it ends in tears.

+1. The Marches line is consistently the worst line for overcrowding that I travel on, worse even than XC Oxford-Birmingham, though I'm lucky enough not to have to endure any part of GTR. (It is also one of the most, shall we say, optimistically priced.) I'm genuinely surprised by craigybagel's suggestion that "it's very rare for people to be standing on the marches" - that doesn't tally with my experience at all.

I speak as a conductor who spends the vast majority of his working life on that line. Across all services, there are very few where standing passengers are a regular occurrence. 0449 CRE-MFH and 0610 SHR-MST are usually busy with standees south of Pontypool, with similar returning issues in the evening,but what train into a city centre (or effectively 2 city centres given how many people use those services to commute to Bristol as well as Cardiff) in the morning rush hour isn't busy? At the other end, between Nantwich and Manchester is very busy on the two peak trains (0435 CDF-MAN and 1730 MAN-CDF) but otherwise standees are rare at that end. Then there is the school train (0630 MAN-MFH) which is usually very full by Leominster, but apart from that rarely has more than 40 passengers on. So long as those services booked for 3 cars actually get them, and there are no special events on (both fairly big ifs I'll admit, hence why we do need more stock) the line copies reasonably well with the demand placed on it.

What about to Barry Island? If the problem with stock over 20m is with tight curves, then I can't see how 156's/153's/158's could be allowed on what has got to be the tightest curve on the valleys network between Barry and Barry Island.

.

A 153 is actually booked to go to Barry Island every morning.

 

[daodao]

Just to be clear I don't have a problem with devolving control of the Wales and Borders franchise provided a mechanism is put in place to give the borders region some input into the new franchise alongside the Welsh government. What jcollins proposed earlier in the tread and you dismissed was a sensible suggestion for how devolving control away from Westminster but solving the lack of accountability of the Welsh Government to the Borders regions of England



Another dimension to this that has not been considered is I can't imagine many Tory MP's in the Borders being happy at the idea of the Welsh Government being responsible for specifying the services in their constituencies.

It is inappropriate for the responsibility for the W&B franchise, as it is currently constituted, to be devolved solely or even primarily to the WAG. Virtually all services in North/Mid Wales and many serving South Wales cross Offa's Dyke, or are closely inter-worked with services that do so.

Therefore, the only rail services that it is appropriate for the WAG to have sole control over are local trains in the South East Wales Metro area - the Valley line services (including those to the coast) running through Cardiff Queen Street, the services to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale (which could be linked at Cardiff) and any proposed service from Newport up the Ebbw valley. These could be constituted as a separate franchise, like Merseyrail or C2C.

The remaining W&B franchise should be left much as it is and controlled by the DfT in Westminster, with appropriate input from the WAG and English counties that it serves. It could take over additional services in border counties like Cheshire and Shropshire (e.g. all non-electric services to Chester and Shrewsbury, apart from Virgin trains to London) to simplify operational arrangements, but should not be regarded as a "Welsh" franchise.

 

[thenorthern]

Thing is with the Welsh Assembly having control of the franchise think about this. When my local TOC's franchise is due to expire my local MP will be consulted about the new franchise and if I have any suggestions about the new franchise I can go and speak to him and he will be able to ask questions in Parliment on my behalf or ask the Transport Secretary on my behalf.

With the new Wales and Borders Franchise however for the people who live in Yorton, Wem, Prees and Witchurch can't ask Owen Patterson the local MP to ask in the Welsh Assembly about the new franchise and they can't ask their local AM because they don't have one, this is despite many of the trains at these stations running only to destinations in England. But its not just Shropshire lets say that someone in Codsall, Staffordshire wants to ask their local MP to ask in Parliament about more trains stopping there on Sundays during the next franchise the local MP would in effect have to say its out of his remit. Also if there are any select committees at the Welsh Assembly on the new franchise a large number of Arriva Trains Wales users will have no representation on those select committees.

Now I am aware that John Stevenson MP for Carlisle is in a similar position for the Glasgow and South Western line but given that its only one station on one line its not really on the same scale.

Perhaps there should be a separate franchise for the Valley Lines like there was from 1997 - 2001 which is let by the Welsh Assembly.

 

[northwichcat]

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a suitable solution that is both workable for ATW, WAG and the english regions, but so far all I see is many people following Westminster's lead in having an anti-Welsh agenda.
.

Really? Earlier you said it doesn't matter if Shropshire politicians have a say in the new franchise as long as the trains are clean and on time. Perhaps you realised you were being anti-English when you read my proposed solution but don't want to admit it. Pretty much everyone thinks Westminster favour other areas over their own, the Welsh are not unique in that respect.

Is there any evidence of any W&B services actually making a profit?

Someone posted a link to a document on here a year or two ago which showed ATW returning a premium to DfT for the England part of their franchise but the premium was low in comparison to the total funding the franchise receives.

In fact, do any routes in the UK run by two coach DMUs make a profit?

Like I've pointed out before we don't normally see figures for whether routes are profitable or not - the figures are always for groups of routes. I've not seen any evidence to suggest there's no profitable routes in the Northern franchise - I can guess which routes are least likely to be loss-making but there's no evidence to say whether those routes are heavily subsided or whether those routes are profitable and helping to subside other routes.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I speak as a conductor who spends the vast majority of his working life on that line. Across all services, there are very few where standing passengers are a regular occurrence.

Very curious! My experience is generally in the Abergavenny-Hereford-Shrewsbury area at weekends; I'd say I've had to stand around between a third and a half of the time, and on occasion (particularly Sunday afternoons) it's been can't-squeeze-anyone-else-onto-the-train territory. Standing wedged in a 175 vestibule from Church Stretton to Hereford, then onto an empty but uncomfortable Turbo back to the Cotswolds, is not my idea of fun for £53...

 

[craigybagel]

Very curious! My experience is generally in the Abergavenny-Hereford-Shrewsbury area at weekends; I'd say I've had to stand around between a third and a half of the time, and on occasion (particularly Sunday afternoons) it's been can't-squeeze-anyone-else-onto-the-train territory. Standing wedged in a 175 vestibule from Church Stretton to Hereford, then onto an empty but uncomfortable Turbo back to the Cotswolds, is not my idea of fun for £53...

Weekends are a bit hit and miss I'll admit. There are so many variables in terms of sports and concerts, and engineering work anywhere on the Atw network can mess up unit allocations so it's a little harder to predict . You can work the same train two weekends in a row and have two very different experiences.

I won't name actual trains but yesterday I worked a 3 car 175 in one direction, late afternoon, and whilst it was busy passenger numbers never exceeded 120 (there are about 170 seats on a 3 car). On my return trip the numbers never got above 40. One annoying thing is that there were still people standing on the busier of the two services, but if they'd gone past the vestibules they'd have found plenty of seats.

 

[40129]

It is inappropriate for the responsibility for the W&B franchise, as it is currently constituted, to be devolved solely or even primarily to the WAG. Virtually all services in North/Mid Wales and many serving South Wales cross Offa's Dyke, or are closely inter-worked with services that do so.

Therefore, the only rail services that it is appropriate for the WAG to have sole control over are local trains in the South East Wales Metro area - the Valley line services (including those to the coast) running through Cardiff Queen Street, the services to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale (which could be linked at Cardiff) and any proposed service from Newport up the Ebbw valley. These could be constituted as a separate franchise, like Merseyrail or C2C.

The remaining W&B franchise should be left much as it is and controlled by the DfT in Westminster, with appropriate input from the WAG and English counties that it serves. It could take over additional services in border counties like Cheshire and Shropshire (e.g. all non-electric services to Chester and Shrewsbury, apart from Virgin trains to London) to simplify operational arrangements, but should not be regarded as a "Welsh" franchise.

As a resident of the Borders part of Wales & Borders, I completely agree with the above.

In terms of specific services I do wonder whether the Manchester - West Wales services could/should be split in two with a British franchise covering a Manchester - Swansea service and the Welsh franchise covering a separate Cardiff - West Wales service.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I wonder if ATW just need to straight-up run more trains at a weekend (and I know, it's easy to pontificate from the comfort of a forum!). Northbound services from Church Stretton on a Sunday are broadly speaking two-hourly, vs hourly or better on a weekday. Even at major stations like Hereford there are several 1hr+ gaps.

 

[craigybagel]

I wonder if ATW just need to straight-up run more trains at a weekend (and I know, it's easy to pontificate from the comfort of a forum!). Northbound services from Church Stretton on a Sunday are broadly speaking two-hourly, vs hourly or better on a weekday. Even at major stations like Hereford there are several 1hr+ gaps.

Quite possibly the case. But as you hinted yourself, it's easier said than done! They already have to use several 150s on a Sunday as it is.

 

[transmanche]

With the new Wales and Borders Franchise however for the people who live in Yorton, Wem, Prees and Witchurch can't ask Owen Patterson the local MP to ask in the Welsh Assembly about the new franchise and they can't ask their local AM because they don't have one

What about the residents of Chester, Ellesmere Port, Hooton, Bache, Capenhurst, Little Sutton or Overpool who can't ask their local MP or councillor abut the operation of their local rail service and can't ask their local representative on the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority as they don't have one? It doesn't all fall apart as they can respond to consultations directly and Merseytravel consult with all stakeholders. The same thing that is done by TfL, Transport Scotland and every transport authority in the UK.

Why are you so certain that TfW would not do the same.

Again, you're looking for a problem where none exists.

 

[PHILIPE]

As a resident of the Borders part of Wales & Borders, I completely agree with the above.

In terms of specific services I do wonder whether the Manchester - West Wales services could/should be split in two with a British franchise covering a Manchester - Swansea service and the Welsh franchise covering a separate Cardiff - West Wales service.

Isn't Wales part of Britain any more ?

 

[northwichcat]

What about the residents of Chester, Ellesmere Port, Hooton, Bache, Capenhurst, Little Sutton or Overpool who can't ask their local MP or councillor abut the operation of their local rail service and can't ask their local representative on the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority as they don't have one? It doesn't all fall apart as they can respond to consultations directly and Merseytravel consult with all stakeholders. The same thing that is done by TfL, Transport Scotland and every transport authority in the UK.
.

Merseyrail's a bit different to ATW:

Which services do they run which don't go in to Merseyside at all? None
Which services do they run which travel for 100 miles or more before reaching the Merseyside border? None
How many notices in Scouse dialect do Merseyrail put up at Chester station? None (ATW put up notices in Welsh at stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh.)

When Merseyrail start running Liverpool to Hull services or Chester to Manchester services then you can compare them to ATW.

Don't the Newcastle to Glasgow services change operator at Carlisle?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many notices in Scouse dialect do Merseyrail put up at Chester station? None (ATW put up notices in Welsh at stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh.)

The lift at Central used to have a Scouse accent, though.

 

[snowball]

The lift at Central used to have a Scouse accent, though.

Did it have a Genuine People Personality?

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't Wales part of Britain any more ?

Oh so it offends you if anyone refers to a cross-Border franchise as British but an all Wales franchise as Welsh?

Note to all English posters - don't say 'Welsh' in this thread, the inhabitants of the country of Wales obviously want to be referred to as British not Welsh. I'm not sure if we're supposed to refer to the Welsh rugby and football teams as British as well now!

 

[transmanche]

Merseyrail's a bit different to ATW:

The principal (of 'representation' on the controlling body) is exactly the same.

(ATW put up notics in Welsh at stations in England where plenty of foreign languages can be heard but never Welsh.)

Well that's not true as my Mum regularly speaks to my Aunt in Welsh at Shrewsbury, Gobowen and Chester stations... :roll: