War Nostalgia Gone Wrong?

[75A]

I find the report in the OP very bizarre. That they were escorted away for their own safety and yet does not mention what danger they were in. They were then escorted out of town by marshals,sounds very spaghetti Western. Excellent reporting.
Some people like dressing up,whether it’s Trekkies dressed as Klingons or American civil war re-enactors or staff at heritage railways. Just because someone chooses to dress as German soldiers doesn’t mean they are right wing sympathisers,perhaps they just wish to portray the opposite side. Perhaps it’s a “what if “ scenario they wish to portray.
As I said above the railway I volunteer on used to have them during war weekends. We had no trouble,indeed the banter between them and the British was at times quite humorous as most of them knew each other anyway.

When the Great Central has had this sort of thing @ Quorn there has never been any issues between the two 'sides', always been a cracking weekend.

 

[Ashley Hill]

When the Great Central has had this sort of thing @ Quorn there has never been any issues between the two 'sides', always been a cracking weekend.

Indeed. When it works well it is good fun. The actions of those described above ruin it for everyone else. Our “war weekend”has been rebranded “40s weekend” for some years now. Many people now believe it’s wrong to glamourise the war.

 

[Mike Machin]

With time continuing to move on, I think that a lot of people would prefer to engage participate in 1950s or 60s vintage weekends.

Juke boxes, coffee bars, rockers with their vintage motorcycles, mods with their scooters, lovely classic cars, guys and girls looking like characters from Happy Days or Grease, rock ‘n’ roll, skiffle and jazz - Miss Marple and Hi-De-Hi!

All such happy, joyful sunny images and totally in keeping time wise with our predominantly 1950s heritage railways.

Time to move on from wartime into Winston Churchill’s ‘Sunny Uplands.’

 

[Ashley Hill]

With time continuing to move on, I think that a lot of people would prefer to engage participate in 1950s or 60s vintage weekends.

Juke boxes, coffee bars, rockers with their vintage motorcycles, mods with their scooters, lovely classic cars, guys and girls looking like characters from Happy Days or Grease, rock ‘n’ roll, skiffle and jazz - Miss Marple and Hi-De-Hi!

All such happy, joyful sunny images and totally in keeping time wise with our predominantly 1950s heritage railways.

Time to move on from wartime into Winston Churchill’s ‘Sunny Uplands.’

This could be the way forward.

 

[Russel]

Obviously we don't know the full story here, but assuming they were just there dressed as SS officers, then there has been a bit of an overreaction here.

Unless they were behaving in a way that would cause trouble intentionally, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with running someone out of a town just because of how they are dressed, even it if is a little distasteful.

I also don't agree with taking offense to something on behalf of others, which is what a lot of this boils down to.

 

[yorksrob]

With time continuing to move on, I think that a lot of people would prefer to engage participate in 1950s or 60s vintage weekends.

Juke boxes, coffee bars, rockers with their vintage motorcycles, mods with their scooters, lovely classic cars, guys and girls looking like characters from Happy Days or Grease, rock ‘n’ roll, skiffle and jazz - Miss Marple and Hi-De-Hi!

All such happy, joyful sunny images and totally in keeping time wise with our predominantly 1950s heritage railways.

Time to move on from wartime into Winston Churchill’s ‘Sunny Uplands.’

Sounds excellent:

I love Hi-De-Hi and Miss Marple ! Am I excluded for preferring Joan Hickson (1980's Miss Marple) to Margaret Rutherford (1960's Miss Marple) ?

Add to that slam-door trains with trojan moquette !

 

[zwk500]

Obviously we don't know the full story here, but assuming they were just there dressed as SS officers, then there has been a bit of an overreaction here.

Unless they were behaving in a way that would cause trouble intentionally, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with running someone out of a town just because of how they are dressed, even it if is a little distasteful.

It's a bit more than a little distasteful to go around with a lookalike Hitler. That's a very particular statement. There are ways to include 'the other side' without being over the top as mentioned above. However it's not totally new to get to badly, badly wrong - a few years ago the Bluebell dropped a clanger by having a simulated summary execution of a 'german spy'.

It's worth pointing out that we are now 68 years from the end of the war, and anybody with distinct memories of 1940-43 (the worst part of the war for Britain) would be into their 80s by now. I think part of the problem is that people planning and attending these events perhaps think of them more in terms of the films like 'Where Eagles Dare' in the 60s as that's how they experienced it, rather than what it actually was. I suspect if you asked people who grew up on 'Schindler's List', 'Saving Private Ryan' or 'Piano' you'd get a very different WW2 event planned.

 

[Titfield]

It's a bit more than a little distasteful to go around with a lookalike Hitler. That's a very particular statement. There are ways to include 'the other side' without being over the top as mentioned above. However it's not totally new to get to badly, badly wrong - a few years ago the Bluebell dropped a clanger by having a simulated summary execution of a 'german spy'.

It's worth pointing out that we are now 68 years from the end of the war, and anybody with distinct memories of 1940-43 (the worst part of the war for Britain) would be into their 80s by now. I think part of the problem is that people planning and attending these events perhaps think of them more in terms of the films like 'Where Eagles Dare' in the 60s as that's how they experienced it, rather than what it actually was. I suspect if you asked people who grew up on 'Schindler's List', 'Saving Private Ryan' or 'Piano' you'd get a very different WW2 event planned.

78 years.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a bit more than a little distasteful to go around with a lookalike Hitler. That's a very particular statement. There are ways to include 'the other side' without being over the top as mentioned above. However it's not totally new to get to badly, badly wrong - a few years ago the Bluebell dropped a clanger by having a simulated summary execution of a 'german spy'.

It's worth pointing out that we are now 68 years from the end of the war, and anybody with distinct memories of 1940-43 (the worst part of the war for Britain) would be into their 80s by now. I think part of the problem is that people planning and attending these events perhaps think of them more in terms of the films like 'Where Eagles Dare' in the 60s, rather than what it actually was. I wrote my undergraduate history dissertation on the experience of a jewish family in Nazi Germany immediately prior to the war breaking out, and anybody who thinks there is anything light-hearted about the Nazi regime should educate themselves better.

True, but Allo Allo remains one of the best sitcoms ever made. Perhaps the fact that it was made by those of a generation who would have witnessed the war (either as children, if not combatants) gave them license to a sort of gallows humour !

 

[Lost property]

Obviously we don't know the full story here, but assuming they were just there dressed as SS officers, then there has been a bit of an overreaction here.

Unless they were behaving in a way that would cause trouble intentionally, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with running someone out of a town just because of how they are dressed, even it if is a little distasteful.

I also don't agree with taking offense to something on behalf of others, which is what a lot of this boils down to.

I don't see them being "asked to leave " as an over reaction. The activities of the S.S. are well documented and anybody who chooses to dress in their uniforms probably has an ideological affinity with them...the back story photo reinforces this perception.

Personally, I'm not in favour of "war weekends "..as they present a very sanitised impression of the carnage that resulted, for all nations involved, and neither am I a fan of the many war references in film / comics / books which glorify war. Some films, I admit, do the reverse.

I'm always bemused by people who want to dress up in uniforms.... and why.

The rebranding to a 50's / 60's themed events would be a positive way forward and could reasonably be expected to generate revenue as a result.

I remain committed to saying, that, the only day the war should be remembered, along with other conflicts, is Remembrance Day.

 

[75A]

I remain committed to saying, that, the only day the war should be remembered, along with other conflicts, is Remembrance Day.

Exactly

 

[SteveM70]

One of the "Nazis" in the picture in the BBC article has his face pixellated - is he a child?!?

 

[Vespa]

says it all that they think this is some kind of justification - did they forget Russia was on our side?

Russia weren't on our side as they invaded Poland in concert with Nazi Germany and divided the country up between them then killed all the Polish officers at Katyn just when the Russians needed them after the Germans invaded Russia.

It was an alliance of convenience not friendship after the Germans invaded.

I remain committed to saying, that, the only day the war should be remembered, along with other conflicts, is Remembrance Day.

I parade every with my unit and remember those who have died in service including personal friends, yet I like watching Dad's Army, Allo Allo, I also watch various war films Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers are probably the most realistic for battle scenes and the absurdity of war, I'm not offended by 1940s reenactment groups and do find the Wehrmacht Heer to be of historical interest I find myself analysing the kit and battle tactics of both sides during 40s weekends from a professional viewpoint, it's all theatre and entertainment, because we have defeated the Axis regimes we own the victory and do what we want with it without fear.

I find anti military types and eternally complaining types find it very offensive, I don't I've seen far worse.

 

[Krokodil]

The only authentic Nazi representation would be a downed Luftwaffe pilot being escorted by local labourers with pitchforks

I went to a Mid Hants event years ago, long before there had been any outcry about SS uniforms. Even back then they had the sort of reenactment you describe, complete with the womenfolk appropriating the parachute to make knickers with. It was very good.

With time continuing to move on, I think that a lot of people would prefer to engage participate in 1950s or 60s vintage weekends.

I went to one of these at Llangollen a few years ago. Mixed traction, hippies, beehive hairdos and live music. Great fun.

One of the "Nazis" in the picture in the BBC article has his face pixellated - is he a child?!?

Or a member of the Royal Family?

 

[GusB]

One of the "Nazis" in the picture in the BBC article has his face pixellated - is he a child?!?

The BBC article says:

The uniforms worn by the men, aged between 30 and 50, bore swastikas and death's head symbols, as first revealed by the Eastern Daily Press.

I also spotted the blurred face and reached the same conclusion. Maybe the person whose face was blurred looked young enough to be a minor, so the BBC didn't want to take any chances.

Obviously we don't know the full story here, but assuming they were just there dressed as SS officers, then there has been a bit of an overreaction here.

Unless they were behaving in a way that would cause trouble intentionally, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with running someone out of a town just because of how they are dressed, even it if is a little distasteful.

I also don't agree with taking offense to something on behalf of others, which is what a lot of this boils down to.

What's the overreaction? They were behaving in a way that would intentionally cause trouble. They didn't have to say anything and they didn't have to do anything; the very fact that they turned up in those uniforms was enough to cause alarm. The fact that they left when asked to is irrelevant - they'd made their point and caused the offence just by being there. They were extremely lucky not to have been arrested and charged (if they'd been holding "Just Stop Oil" banners, they probably would have been).

Also, it doesn't matter that the number of people who actually lived through the war is diminishing; the memory of the atrocities that were committed doesn't disappear in a single generation. Their descendants will wonder why their aunties, uncles, cousins etc. aren't around any more.

I have to say that I'm rather disappointed with the people here who brush off such activities as being a "bit of banter"; you clearly haven't thought this through and you really need to give your heads a shake.

Let's not forget that you didn't have to be Jewish to fall foul of the Nazis.

 

[MP33]

There is a Fawlty Towers experience offered where actors recreate Gourmet Night. At work, we had a do where things went wrong and we got the Gourmet Night for real.

At one of the Toy Fairs near me, a man said to a trader that a railway book was about a place where he did his National Service. He went on to say he hated it and thought it was a waste of time. Are there people who remember the war when little and hated it and would rather forget all about it.

 

[Lost property]

Russia weren't on our side as they invaded Poland in concert with Nazi Germany and divided the country up between them then killed all the Polish officers at Katyn just when the Russians needed them after the Germans invaded Russia.

It was an alliance of convenience not friendship after the Germans invaded.



I parade every with my unit and remember those who have died in service including personal friends, yet I like watching Dad's Army, Allo Allo, I also watch various war films Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers are probably the most realistic for battle scenes and the absurdity of war, I'm not offended by 1940s reenactment groups and do find the Wehrmacht Heer to be of historical interest I find myself analysing the kit and battle tactics of both sides during 40s weekends from a professional viewpoint, it's all theatre and entertainment, because we have defeated the Axis regimes we own the victory and do what we want with it without fear.

I find anti military types and eternally complaining types find it very offensive, I don't I've seen far worse.

You missed "Das Boot " from your short list, widely reported as having a factual content.

Also, "Kellys Heroes " when it comes to comedy. "Dads Army ", certainly, and if you've served, you will have met all the characters portrayed at some point. That, and the show parodies the urban myth about "military efficiency "....true, the proverbial system can, and does, work well, but, it's also prone to cock ups and "you couldn't make it up "sagas...and you need a sense of humour to serve.


However, the "we won so there " bit comes across as being jingoistic and, in many ways, synonymous with why the UK flounced out of the EU.

But, it's your last line that deserves a mention. If that comment was directed at me, then presumably you feel 20yrs with the RAF, both serving and as a civilian, is "anti military ".....as for yourself ?.

if it's any consolation, I have a great deal of derision for aircraft preservationists who like to dress in flying suits, with badges, and rank tabs, who have never served.

I've seen a lot worse as well, notably EDL thugs "marching" around, some, amazingly, standing upright.

 

[Vespa]

There is a Fawlty Towers experience offered where actors recreate Gourmet Night. At work, we had a do where things went wrong and we got the Gourmet Night for real.

At one of the Toy Fairs near me, a man said to a trader that a railway book was about a place where he did his National Service. He went on to say he hated it and thought it was a waste of time. Are there people who remember the war when little and hated it and would rather forget all about it.

At the time they did, I read my grandparent's letters from the times, I certainly got that vibe, it had to be remembered nobody was sure of the outcome at the time.

As the years gone by many have come to appreciate the role they played in WW2, indeed I remembered one saying at no other time did the country come together as much as they did and said "We will never see the likes of it again in my lifetime"

 

[Haywain]

As Gloster has said, the Sherringham event was actually more the whole town rather than the NNR.

None of the TV reports on BBC Look East made any mention of the railway and there is no suggestion that I'm aware of that this group were ever at the railway. The story is about the town of Sheringham which is not defined solely by the NNR.

 

[Calthrop]

Noticed, as I post this, a pop-up ad at the bottom of the screen -- seemingly from some militaria outfit -- "SS, Wehrmacht Panzer Uniforms -- Shop Now". (Am not investigating further.)

 

[70014IronDuke]

There's a place for them as many German troops were drafted without a say in the matter including Austrians, Studetens, Slieswig-Holstien and other nationalities that are considered "Deutches Volk"

Only SS recruited other nationalities including Britons into the Britishers Frei Korps admittedly their numbers weren't very high.

There were both volunteer recruits, some out of conviction and some for financial reward, all over the Nazi occupied territories (especially the Baltics and Ukraine).

There were also forced conscription troops in the SS. I met a Slovenian a decade back who was conscripted after his 18th birthday into the Hungarian army - around Christmas-New Year 1944-5. (He lived in that part of NE Slovenia which was occupied by the Hungarians.)

He was taken to Hungary proper, and then, before he knew it, forcibly drafted into the German SS. In the chaos as the Germans were retreating towards Austria (this would have been Feb-March-April 45) he was captured by the Red Army and transported to a prison camp somewhere in the Soviet Union.

Fortunately for him, he said that he did not get the SS tattoo under his arm (which would have been much worse for him) and after 6-9 months he was released and made it back home. I think he said he never actually fired a shot in anger, or did any genuine SS duties.

In another example, my own father-in-law was deported to Ebensee concentration camp in Austria in 44-45. (It was one of the very last camps to be liberated.) For a period, the prisoners were marched to work each morning through the Austrian countryside, and some days a local woman would cycle in front of the column, dropping apples on the ground.

He said the SS guards at this point were mostly old men (and possibly conscripted, I don't know) who didn't go in for gratuitous violence, and they not only allowed the woman to do this, but allowed the prisoners to pick up and eat the apples off the ground (but not take them off any neaby trees, if it was the season).

Maybe the Ebensee camp guards were - by SS standards - exceptionally liberal. Paul Johnson, in one of his books, records that very near the end, around April-May 45, the kapos were told to order the prisoners into a cave quarried into the hillside. This was, ostensibly to save them from potential allied air attacks, though in fact the plan was to bury them alive by blowing up the entrance to the cave.

The prisoners refused to go. At this point, an SS officer ordered his troops to machine-gun the prisoners assembled on the parade ground. Incredibly, the troops refused to open fire, and the prisoners survived (at least one more day).

This was the only time on record that SS troops ever defied orders, according to Johnson.

(My father-in-law remembered this event. He was one who had refused to go into the cave - but he didn't know that the SS troops had disobeyed orders to open fire.)

I'm sure the vast majority of SS officers and most/many of the regular troops were Nazi brutes - and I'm not at all trying to defend them - but just to say that there were forced conscripts and maybe even some volunteers in the lower SS ranks, who were not Nazi believing sadists, indeed people who detested the system they were forced to serve.

 

[Haywain]

Anyone wanting more background about the Sheringham event could refer to this linked web page: Sheringham 1940's Weekend 2023

 

[stuu]

Obviously we don't know the full story here, but assuming they were just there dressed as SS officers, then there has been a bit of an overreaction here.

Unless they were behaving in a way that would cause trouble intentionally, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with running someone out of a town just because of how they are dressed, even it if is a little distasteful.

A little distasteful? Dressing as some of the worst murderers for centuries is more than a little distasteful. I would absolutely question the thinking and politics of someone who thought that was acceptable

 

[contrex]

This is crazy, the adverts on this page ate now advertising nazi uniforms!!!!

I expect there's probably a way of stopping them?

 

[Calthrop]

I expect there's probably a way of stopping them?

Re above post -- as I mentioned on Saturday; didn't notice @uglymonkey's post of the day before. Seems that they come and go...

 

[contrex]

With time continuing to move on, I think that a lot of people would prefer to engage participate in 1950s or 60s vintage weekends.

Juke boxes, coffee bars, rockers with their vintage motorcycles, mods with their scooters, lovely classic cars, guys and girls looking like characters from Happy Days or Grease, rock ‘n’ roll, skiffle and jazz - Miss Marple and Hi-De-Hi!

All such happy, joyful sunny images and totally in keeping time wise with our predominantly 1950s heritage railways.

Time to move on from wartime into Winston Churchill’s ‘Sunny Uplands.’

Oh great! Let's make it really authentic! A colour bar, people dressed up as Colin Jordan and his followers, a re-enactment of Hola Camp..., maybe a hanging at the local prison?

 

[pint]

We should not be glorifying the nazi, or any other heinous reigeime of the past, but that the same time we should not, and must not forget it it and airbrush it out of memory . And there in lies the paradox of people dressing up in "nazi" uniforms are they glorifying the Nazi regeime, or are they reminding us of thre horrors of the past - even if doen so in a light/tongue in cheek way?
Its easier to take offence at the mere fact that people were/are wearing such stuff than it is to look into the ( horrific) history of such things , and its much easier to get angry about the fact that you may have been reminded of the past , instead of focusing that anger on the much more difficult task of looking at - and even harder task of trying to resolve your own or even societetys modern issues, prejudices and problems.


"Those who cannnot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

 

[zwk500]

We should not be glorifying the nazi, or any other heinous reigeime of the past, but that the same time we should not, and must not forget it it and airbrush it out of memory . And there in lies the paradox of people dressing up in "nazi" uniforms are they glorifying the Nazi regeime, or are they reminding us of thre horrors of the past - even if doen so in a light/tongue in cheek way?

It's perfectly possible to remember the Nazi Regime without dressing up as SS officers at a general public event. There are plenty of museums, memorials, archives, projects, books, songs, films, plays, etc about what happened in the war, and particular in films/plays/TV dressing up in the uniforms is necessary and the audience understands that. It would have been perfectly possible to have an information stand with some German uniforms on a mannequin and a bit of information about what life was like on the 'other' home front done in a way that caused no harm whatsoever.

Its easier to take offence at the mere fact that people were/are wearing such stuff than it is to look into the ( horrific) history of such things , and its much easier to get angry about the fact that you may have been reminded of the past , instead of focusing that anger on the much more difficult task of looking at - and even harder task of trying to resolve your own or even societetys modern issues, prejudices and problems.

Focusing anger on to society's current issues won't solve those problems but rather exacerbate them. Prejudice and other problems need compassion and understanding to work towards a solution. Dressing up as Hitler and the SS does not contribute in any meaningful way to solving issues of prejudice.

"Those who cannnot remember the past are condemned to repaet it"

It's not remembering the past but learning from it that's important.

 

[Rhinojerry]

A little distasteful? Dressing as some of the worst murderers for centuries is more than a little distasteful. I would absolutely question the thinking and politics of someone who thought that was acceptable

My friend who lives in the town said it only kicked off because,a drunk male ( not a local),thumped one of them.
The rest you know.

 

[John Luxton]

I think we are in great danger of rewriting history.

As with most things is becoming victim to the so called "woke brigade". I don't want to get into a discussion of wokism but I think people will know what I am getting at. History is being rewritten to fit an agenda. This discussion would not be taking place 20 years ago.

This morning I caught the a discussion this morning on Radio 4's religious programme "Sunday" in which a private member's bill outlawing the sale of Nazi era memorabilia. A trader in such memorabilia was interviewed then it was revealed that the trader was Jewish! Now, I imagine that gent would have more reservations about the Nazis than others but he saw no problem in selling the memorabilia.

I have only attended two WWII Railway weekends both there the Isle of Man Railway's Island at War weekends a few years back. There was a kriegsmarine sailor being marched around as a PoW who "escaped" it was all rather a bit of fun and rather reminiscent of Dad's Army and the "Don't tell him Pike" scene.

The other was a bit more subtle a lady in 1940s costume joined the compartment I was in. I just presumed she was just someone entering into the spirit of the occasion as there were quite a few in period dress. Near Santon statin the train was stopped by soldiers and she was ordered off the train at gun point for being a spy.

We all know the Nazis were bad but I don't see why characters should be written out of re-enactments providing no one is using the uniform in a political context there is no harm, its just history.

If people feel as though they are going to be offended they should stay away.