Was fined this morning because I have bought a ticket whilst the train was in station

[georgeiulian17]

Morning everyone!
As the title says, here are de details:
7.30 train from Horwich Parkway to Manchester Oxford Road

Arrived at the station at 7.20, trying to buy a ticket from trip. app which I’ve done loads before.

I hear an announcement in the speaker. The 7.30 train is cancelled this will delay your trip by 15 minutes.

I was ok. But all of a sudden, train is in station; panic, open the app, app wasn’t loading, was in doubt if to go up or not, app loads, first ticket 8.30 train, I bought that, while the doors were closing; purchase successful. Yes!

Few minutes later, the conductor (?) came and wanted to see my ticket. The screen wasn’t loading, and she started; I need to give you fine because you can’t show me your ticket; I told her that I have a ticket and would like a second. After a few back and forward she agreed that she will return. (Have to note that in that moment I’m 100% sure she was set to fine me)

Managed to load the ticket, went to her, showed the ticket she scanned it.
I still need to give you a fine as you bought the ticket while train was in station. I was what? Yes. It shows here you bought the ticket at 7.29 and the train left at 7.30 meaning you bought the ticket whilst the train was in station. I was baffled…
I tried to explain that they announced at the station that the train was cancelled. (In the trip. app the train is showing as cancelled.)
She took out her phone and said, see, it says here it’s not cancelled (for real Sherlock, we’re in it!)
The she started to write the fine which I received in the end. The fine was given as 7.38

I will attach pictures with my ticket, her explanation form the fine and proof that in the app train is cancelled.

I commute to work twice a week and never traveled without a ticket and never had issues before.

Can I appeal?

Thank you
(sorry for poor formatting, posting from phone)

 

[clagmonster]

The cancelled train was the 07:31 to Blackpool, ie in the other direction. Guessing you misheard the announcement.

The trouble you have is that your ticket is an advance for the 08:14, therefore valid on that train only. The correct course of action was for the travelling ticket inspector to issue a penalty fare. On another day, they might have reported you for prosecution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside I hope that member of staff isn't issuing PFs if the ticket was purchased before the scheduled departure time. It's only supposed to be invalid if purchased after the actual departure time (taking into account that the train may be late). I very often purchase tickets while walking to a train from the cycle or car parking, which has in the past involved them being issued at its published departure time (but before I boarded).

This PF is valid as the ticket purchased was an Advance, though, and thus the correct course of action is to pay it and be more careful next time

 

[transportphoto]

My first thought is that there may be a technical grounds to appeal here based on the reasons written on the penalty fare. Others may be able to better advise.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The cancelled train was the 07:31 to Blackpool, ie in the other direction. Guessing you misheard the announcement.

How does this explain the greyed out bar that the OP has shown us showing Horwich Parkway (0730) to Manchester Piccadilly (0758) as cancelled?

The trouble you have is that your ticket is an advance for the 08:14, therefore valid on that train only. The correct course of action was for the travelling ticket inspector to issue a penalty fare. On another day, they might have reported you for prosecution.

This, however, I agree with.

 

[Turtle]

The cancelled train was the 07:31 to Blackpool, ie in the other direction. Guessing you misheard the announcement.

The trouble you have is that your ticket is an advance for the 08:14, therefore valid on that train only. The correct course of action was for the travelling ticket inspector to issue a penalty fare. On another day, they might have reported you for prosecution.

As a matter of interest, are the ticket prices different for the earlier and later trains. I'd have thought they'd be the same; peak hour travel?

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a matter of interest, are the ticket prices different for the earlier and later trains. I'd have thought they'd be the same; peak hour travel?

Had the OP bought an Anytime Day Single there'd likely have been no issue (I think the "it was bought at 0729" bit is the inspector floundering, as it's totally valid to purchase it at 0729, or indeed 0730, just not 0731 i.e. after departure).

 

[georgeiulian17]

As a matter of interest, are the ticket prices different for the earlier and later trains. I'd have thought they'd be the same; peak hour travel?

They are, bun in this case tickets had the same price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are, bun in this case tickets had the same price.

Doesn't matter, an Advance is only valid on the train for which it was booked unless that train itself was cancelled. The train for which the Advance was purchased wasn't cancelled (nor does the cancellation confusion relate to it) so the PF is correctly issued.

Generally there's a cut-off on the apps about 5 minutes before departure after which a ticket for that train can't be purchased. Provided it hasn't yet departed you can purchase an Anytime or (Super) Off Peak "for" another train and use it on that (subject to any ticket restrictions) but not an Advance.

The alleged cancellation is actually irrelevant to what happened.

 

[georgeiulian17]

As an aside I hope that member of staff isn't issuing PFs if the ticket was purchased before the scheduled departure time. It's only supposed to be invalid if purchased after the actual departure time (taking into account that the train may be late). I very often purchase tickets while walking to a train from the cycle or car parking, which has in the past involved them being issued at its published departure time (but before I boarded).

This PF is valid as the ticket purchased was an Advance, though, and thus the correct course of action is to pay it and be more careful next time

I do the same. But today none of the apps work till I got to the station. I had missed train before and went home with different train and never had issues. Does that mean I was lucky then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do the same. But today none of the apps work till I got to the station. I had missed train before and went home with different train and never had issues. Does that mean I was lucky then?

If you got away with using an Advance on a train that it wasn't booked for, then yes, you were lucky. You were lucky in this case too - a settlement for prosecution avoidance is typically £100 plus fare, the PF will be £50 plus fare, so you definitely need to pay it, particularly before they do any more digging and realise you might have done it before.

Unless the booked train is cancelled Advances are valid only on the specified train, and you won't be able to buy them less than 5 (or maybe 10, you'd have to try it, I'm not sure every TOC/sales site is exactly the same) minutes before departure.

If the app doesn't work use the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) at the station, or the booking office if there is one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I do the same. But today none of the apps work till I got to the station. I had missed train before and went home with different train and never had issues. Does that mean I was lucky then?

It does. If your ticket says 'Advance' on it, then it is only valid for that particular train. It sounds as if in the past you have been lucky and haven't been picked up for getting it wrong, but you can't rely on being lucky in future. This is particularly the case because you have been picked up once so the inspector will know your face: if they pick you up again that will look like you are deliberately using a cheap ticket when by the rules you should use a more expensive one.

 

[georgeiulian17]

If you got away with using an Advance on a train that it wasn't booked for, then yes, you were lucky. You were lucky in this case too - a settlement for prosecution avoidance is typically £100 plus fare, the PF will be £50 plus fare, so you definitely need to pay it, particularly before they do any more digging and realise you might have done it before.

Unless the booked train is cancelled Advances are valid only on the specified train, and you won't be able to buy them less than 5 (or maybe 10, you'd have to try it, I'm not sure every TOC/sales site is exactly the same) minutes before departure.

If the app doesn't work use the TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) at the station, or the booking office if there is one.

It all happened very fast, as mentioned I was on the fence if to go up or not. Wish I didn’t…

It does. If your ticket says 'Advance' on it, then it is only valid for that particular train. It sounds as if in the past you have been lucky and haven't been picked up for getting it wrong, but you can't rely on being lucky in future. This is particularly the case because you have been picked up once so the inspector will know your face: if they pick you up again that will look like you are deliberately using a cheap ticket when by the rules you should use a more expensive one.

98% of time I’ve traveled with the train I’ve purchased tickets for. I’m not trying to dodge more expensive tickets. It just happened. But I’ve learned a few things today.
I don’t care if she remembers my face, as mentioned, most of the time I was in the right train, and from now on I’m definitely be.

 

[fandroid]

If you get in a similar situation again you need to pick the Anytime Single for a future train time. That'll cost you £7.00 but it will be valid on any train and will save a £50 penalty!

 

[Haywain]

If you get in a similar situation again you need to pick the Anytime Single for a future train time. That'll cost you £7.00 but it will be valid on any train and will save a £50 penalty!

But it must be purchased before boarding the train.

 

[georgeiulian17]

If you get in a similar situation again you need to pick the Anytime Single for a future train time. That'll cost you £7.00 but it will be valid on any train and will save a £50 penalty!

I don’t have this option in the app unfortunately. It’s advanced single only.

Now I have another question, I have two 26-30 railcards, one in trip.com one in trainline; are those transferable? Not between people, but between apps? For example: if those apps don’t work, can I use northerner app to buy a ticket? Will I need a 3rd rails card?

As you might see I’m not very knowledgeable about train travel and would like to avoid those unpleasant situations

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t have this option in the app unfortunately. It’s advanced single only.

Now I have another question, I have two 26-30 railcards, one in trip.com one in trainline; are those transferable? Not between people, but between apps? For example: if those apps don’t work, can I use northerner app to buy a ticket? Will I need a 3rd rails card?

As you might see I’m not very knowledgeable about train travel and would like to avoid those unpleasant situations

You don't need two railcards, one is enough. It can be used against any ticket purchases, through any medium, or via a ticket office or machine.

 

[yorkie]

I don’t have this option in the app unfortunately. It’s advanced single only.

Now I have another question, I have two 26-30 railcards, one in trip.com one in trainline; are those transferable? Not between people, but between apps? For example: if those apps don’t work, can I use northerner app to buy a ticket? Will I need a 3rd rails card?

As you might see I’m not very knowledgeable about train travel and would like to avoid those unpleasant situations

No need to use any apps for your ticket purchase. The Railcard is totally separate (see post above)

You could use the forum's site, and ensure you click "Flexible"; this will avoid Advance fares being offered:




If you want e-tickets, check for the e-ticket symbol.

I'd say as long as the purchase was complete before the train doors have closed, you should be OK, but it is best to buy before boarding the train to be safe.

The only other caveat is if you buy an off peak ticket and travel earlier than such tickets allow, but that's not as big a problem as buying an Advance for the wrong train, and you can avoid this by selecting the correct service in the first place.

 

[georgeiulian17]

I'd say as long as the purchase was complete before the train doors have closed, you should be OK, but it is best to buy before boarding the train to be safe.

Yeah, I usually do, but today was one of those when nothing worked in my favour. But I’ve learned a few lessons today so thank you all!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it must be purchased before boarding the train.

Correct, but that can be at 0730 provided the doors haven't shut yet so you can still board! The inspector was wrong to say it wasn't OK to buy it at 0729.

 

[georgeiulian17]

Correct, but that can be at 0730 provided the doors haven't shut yet so you can still board! The inspector was wrong to say it wasn't OK to buy it at 0729.

I think that is what triggered me most. If she would have said, you have the 8.30 ticket not the 7.30 so you’re getting a fine, it would’ve been easier to to get over it.

But now I feel that she tried to give a fine no matter what, just because it took 20 seconds to produce a “valid” ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that is what triggered me most. If she would have said, you have the 8.30 ticket not the 7.30 so you’re getting a fine, it would’ve been easier to to get over it.

But now I feel that she tried to give a fine no matter what, just because it took 20 seconds to produce a “valid” ticket.

Yes, it does seem she was floundering, and that her spelling and grammar wasn't up to much either! Not very professional at all by the sounds of it.

Unfortunately though she did eventually find grounds, the invalid Advance.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, it does seem she was floundering, and that her spelling and grammar wasn't up to much either! Not very professional at all by the sounds of it.

Unfortunately though she did eventually find grounds, the invalid Advance.

Crucially, those grounds are not explained on the notice, and there is a chance of an appeal.

 

[georgeiulian17]

Crucially, those grounds are not explained on the notice, and there is a chance of an appeal.

Do I have a chance to appeal if I had the wrong ticket? I don’t want pay the £57 but definitely don’t want to pay the £107
How long does and appeal last?

 

[pelli]

I don’t have this option in the app unfortunately. It’s advanced single only.

If you're using the Trip.com app, it's under "View more classes and tickets":


But as others have explained, you don't have to use the Trip.com app just because your railcard is held there. You can try a few different apps and see which you like the best, and also note that different apps can have different extra functionality (e.g. split tickets), fees (for booking, refund, etc), and loyalty schemes.

Further, I note that your opening post states that your destination was Manchester Oxford Road but your attached ticket is for Manchester Piccadilly. Strictly speaking when travelling on an Advance ticket you must not just take the exact train specified, but also between the exact points specified, so if you intend to alight earlier at Oxford Road then you should book your ticket for Oxford Road. (On non-Advance tickets, i.e. Anytime/Off-peak/Super Off-peak, you are allowed to join the train late or leave it early in this way unless the ticket has a restriction that prohibits break of journey, and in addition for Manchester the tickets would likely not have a specific station as origin/destination but rather "Manchester Stations" or "Manchester CTLZ".)

 

[Haywain]

Correct, but that can be at 0730 provided the doors haven't shut yet so you can still board!

Very high risk to leave it that late though. You only need card verification to pop up and you're stuffed.

 

[georgeiulian17]

If you're using the Trip.com app, it's under "View more classes and tickets":
View attachment 141057

But as others have explained, you don't have to use the Trip.com app just because your railcard is held there. You can try a few different apps and see which you like the best, and also note that different apps can have different extra functionality (e.g. split tickets), fees (for booking, refund, etc), and loyalty schemes.

Further, I note that your opening post states that your destination was Manchester Oxford Road but your attached ticket is for Manchester Piccadilly. Strictly speaking when travelling on an Advance ticket you must not just take the exact train specified, but also between the exact points specified, so if you intend to alight earlier at Oxford Road then you should book your ticket for Oxford Road. (On non-Advance tickets, i.e. Anytime/Off-peak/Super Off-peak, you are allowed to join the train late or leave it early in this way unless the ticket has a restriction that prohibits break of journey, and in addition for Manchester the tickets would likely not have a specific station as origin/destination but rather "Manchester Stations" or "Manchester CTLZ".)

All valuable information, thank you!
I always book HPkway to Picadilly, don’t really know why. I just search for Manchester (Any)

So you’re telling me that is illegal to get down before your final station? Why? I can’t find any logic to that.
I also assumed it’s fine to do so as the barriers always work. I’ve traveled at least 40 times on this route, always was scanned, and till today had no issue.

I’m not saying that I’m right, ai just want to understand…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very high risk to leave it that late though. You only need card verification to pop up and you're stuffed.

I've done it. A bit naughty technically, I boarded but was ready to alight if the whistle was blown before the transaction completed. Wouldn't plan to do it but sometimes it's useful.

 

[Haywain]

I've done it. A bit naughty technically, I boarded but was ready to alight if the whistle was blown before the transaction completed. Wouldn't plan to do it but sometimes it's useful.

I certainly wouldn't risk it at an intermediate station. And if I get on a train I don't want to be thinking about getting off again.

 

[PacerTrain142]

Seems a bit unreasonable to me, we went on the train today. The bus was late so we were late arriving at the station so no time to buy tickets. So we just bought tickets on the train instead which the guard was fine with. It’s actually cheaper to pay with cash on the train as well. Never had a problem paying on the train. If I got fined I’d just refuse to pay and get off at next station simple.