Was losing Stagecoach/Virgin bad for the railway?

[Geezertronic]

(The refused converted HSTs were irrelevant; those were for a new hourly Paddington-Brum service which never operated)

What route would that have taken had it been operated?

 

[paddy1]

What route would that have taken had it been operated?

The plan was for a Birmingham - Cheltenham - Gloucester - Swindon - Paddington service, so as to give Birmingham a direct link to Swindon.

 

[Geezertronic]

The plan was for a Birmingham - Cheltenham - Gloucester - Swindon - Paddington service, so as to give Birmingham a direct link to Swindon.

Thanks, that would have been an interesting route to take from Brum to London

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thanks, that would have been an interesting route to take from Brum to London

With a significant slice of ORCATS revenue on the Swindon to Paddington leg. Purely coincidental.

 

[Runningaround]

I see Avanti staff are sporting new uniforms in that Peacock green. Virgin's red uniforms were a bit too tarty for my liking and it's a pity LNER has stuck with this red too.
Strangely LNER seem to have retained more Virgin influence than Avanti, despite only being Virginised for a mere two years.

At least they stood out on the platforms so you knew who were likely to be staff. Heavy makeup was also a clue.

Virgin fans are always incredibly selective when it come to praising Virgin's achievements. Was the Virgin Cross Country franchise and Operation Princess competent and glamourous, or the problems that still exist to this day on the XC network due to Virgin's gross incompetence?

I think if you did really think back to the 1990s Virgin Trains were a national joke. They were regularly used by the media, comedians, etc as an example of everything that was bad about privatisation and things only started to improve when the WCML upgrade was completed, which was paid for by the taxpayer and executed by Railtrack/Network Rail.

Do train enthusiasts really become fans of '''TOC'S? I see a thread where they have ''Club Shops'' for TOC'S. That's beyond my comprehension and cannot work out why any would.

 

[paddy1]

Thanks, that would have been an interesting route to take from Brum to London

I think it was primarily to link Birmingham with Swindon rather than yet another route between Birmingham and London as well as to fill the gap in the service between Cheltenham/Gloucester and Swindon, which at the time was less frequent than today and supplemented with just a couple of through peak trains to/from London trains.

With a significant slice of ORCATS revenue on the Swindon to Paddington leg. Purely coincidental.

Yes, it would have been, especially as passenger numbers wise Swindon is (or was) one of the largest long distance flows on GWML to/from Paddington.

 

[Hadders]

Virgin fans are always incredibly selective when it come to praising Virgin's achievements. Was the Virgin Cross Country franchise and Operation Princess competent and glamourous, or the problems that still exist to this day on the XC network due to Virgin's gross incompetence?

I think if you did really think back to the 1990s Virgin Trains were a national joke. They were regularly used by the media, comedians, etc as an example of everything that was bad about privatisation and things only started to improve when the WCML upgrade was completed, which was paid for by the taxpayer and executed by Railtrack/Network Rail.

Go to stations served by CrossCountry and you'll still hear some passengers referring to them as Virgin Trains, some 15 years after they ceased running the service.

 

[HarryL]

Go to stations served by CrossCountry and you'll still hear some passengers referring to them as Virgin Trains, some 15 years after they ceased running the service.

Isn't necessarily an indicator they were any good to be fair. If you just use their voyagers and never pay any attention to the exterior livery, you probably would still think they're Virgin with how little they've bothered touching them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think it was primarily to link Birmingham with Swindon rather than yet another route between Birmingham and London as well as to fill the gap in the service between Cheltenham/Gloucester and Swindon, which at the time was less frequent than today and supplemented with just a couple of through peak trains to/from London trains.


Yes, it would have been, especially as passenger numbers wise Swindon is (or was) one of the largest long distance flows on GWML to/from Paddington.

Probably about 20% of the Swindon to Paddington revenue.

For a while there was a Brum - Swindon service via the Stroud Valley - run by the ex XC 158's which were a pretty manky sub-fleet , and eventually passed onto what used to be Wessex trains as a result of some of the restructerings of the Operation Princess excercise. (Wessex got some extra 158's as well as inheriting the somewhat poor ex XC 158's)

 

[Dr Hoo]

Probably about 20% of the Swindon to Paddington revenue.

For a while there was a Brum - Swindon service via the Stroud Valley - run by the ex XC 158's which were a pretty manky sub-fleet , and eventually passed onto what used to be Wessex trains as a result of some of the restructerings of the Operation Princess excercise. (Wessex got some extra 158's as well as inheriting the somewhat poor ex XC 158's)

At the risk of veering off-thread, it is almost impossible to think of the Cross Country operation in whatever form without there being a revenue allocation issue. BR developed ORCATS as soon as computing power became sophisticated enough to Allocate Tickets to Services within InterCity, Network SouthEast and Provincial. Virtually all Cross Country services were on shared routes, especially when there were regional operations on legs like Birmingham-Derby. It was sometimes claimed that Coventry-Nuneaton was their only monopoly route with a regular service. (No need for argument over oddities like Kensington Olympia to Reading.)

This was nothing to do with privatisation or franchising in particular. You carry a proportion of the passengers; you deserve a fair proportion of the (inter-available) revenue.

 

[wolfman]

Glad to see the back of virgin on the east coast like everything virgin.All mink coat and no knickers

 

[fgwrich]

Probably about 20% of the Swindon to Paddington revenue.

For a while there was a Brum - Swindon service via the Stroud Valley - run by the ex XC 158's which were a pretty manky sub-fleet , and eventually passed onto what used to be Wessex trains as a result of some of the restructerings of the Operation Princess excercise. (Wessex got some extra 158's as well as inheriting the somewhat poor ex XC 158's)

Oddly, Wessex did a good job with the refurbishment of those - putting the same seats as used by Connex in the 375s and the 350/450 First Class. FGW later came along and replaced them with ex ScotRail Richmonds, before replacing those with the original BR seats.

Glad to see the back of virgin on the east coast like everything virgin.All mink coat and no knickers

While I get where your coming from, at least Virgin / Stagecoach stood up against the DfT and bought us the mini buffet counter. Otherwise you could have been stuck like us on the western, an IET with no shop / buffet and the occasional mere hint of a trolley service.

 

[Goldfish62]

While I get where your coming from, at least Virgin / Stagecoach stood up against the DfT and bought us the mini buffet counter. Otherwise you could have been stuck like us on the western, an IET with no shop / buffet and the occasional mere hint of a trolley service.

This is very true. They also revolted against the drab utilitarian internal colour scheme that DfT tried to impose. Again GWR just rolled over in this respect.

Glad to see the back of virgin on the east coast like everything virgin.All mink coat and no knickers

It was only 10% Virgin. VTEC was 90% Stagecoach.

 

[Speed43125]

Go to stations served by CrossCountry and you'll still hear some passengers referring to them as Virgin Trains, some 15 years after they ceased running the service.

Doesn't help that you can still see the outline of the little virgin badge on the nose of so many units! Nor the fact the trains are almost identical as they were new on the inside, down to the striping on the doors.

 

[david1212]

For both WCML and XC Virgin initially had to work with older stock. At least for the core WCML route the electric locomotives were still relatively reliable. The same can not be said for the 47 fleet allocated to XC. Virgin were though pro-active in hiring in other 47's as first choice but when really desperate anything available to provide the timetabled service. For summer Saturday services to Ransgate Deltic D9000 was the booked traction.

The Voyager fleet was soon ordered with on paper capacity to replace the loco hauled stock but running to a more frequent time time. The reality as discussed many times since was that the fleet was too small not least because with improvements to both the service and reliability passenger numbers increased. Had Virgin retained the franchise in 2007 there was at least the possibility of investment to expand capacity.

However it transferred to Arriva except a few routes e.g. Birmingham <> Glasgow/Edinburgh to WCML and Manchester Airport <> Glasgow/Edinburgh to Transpennine. The Cardiff to Nottingham and Birmingham to Stansted Airport were transferred to XC from Central trains. The routes covered soon were the same as now.

The only capacity increase to the Voyager fleet was removal of the shop to add a few more seats. Since then zilch as posted above.

Now for summer 2022 in collusion with the DfT the summer 2019 timetable is not re-instated. Hence 2 hour gaps south of Reading with no like-for-like substitute. Likewise significant service reductions to the South-west. If Virgin still had the franchise would they too have done this or at least re-instated some of the services?

 

[takno]

Now for summer 2022 in collusion with the DfT the summer 2019 timetable is not re-instated. Hence 2 hour gaps south of Reading with no like-for-like substitute. Likewise significant service reductions to the South-west. If Virgin still had the franchise would they too have done this or at least re-instated some of the services?

It's not really a matter of collusion. They all basically do as they're told. XC have been more or less doing as they're told all along anyway.

 

[Steddenm]

Didn't Virgin run a Birmingham-Swindon service using 158s?

 

[Clarence Yard]

While I get where your coming from, at least Virgin / Stagecoach stood up against the DfT and bought us the mini buffet counter. Otherwise you could have been stuck like us on the western, an IET with no shop / buffet and the occasional mere hint of a trolley service.

All bidders for the EC franchise bid the buffet counter, iirc. The DfT allowed it and about 11 other minor variations to the East IEP contract to be included in the bid. On the GW build they had closed down the specification, even before the infamous “consultation” on the buffet. The GW build 802 had to follow suit to gain DfT authority.

 

[seagull]

Didn't Virgin run a Birmingham-Swindon service using 158s?

Yes, and a Birmingham-Portsmouth-Manchester as well with a 158.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Yes, and a Birmingham-Portsmouth-Manchester as well with a 158.

That's interesting, Virgin 158s! Were there any in the VT livery - can't find any on Google other than computer generated images for rail simulation games/software?

Were these on loan from another TOC with temporary VT logos stuck on?

 

[43096]

That's interesting, Virgin 158s! Were there any in the VT livery - can't find any on Google other than computer generated images for rail simulation games/software.

No, they never received Virgin livery.

Were these on loan from another TOC with temporary VT logos stuck on?

They were directly leased to Virgin XC; there were no logos on them.

 

[seagull]

If my memory is correct the 158s were still in BR Regional Railways livery (with the logo removed) but never had any Virgin branding or livery externally, and even inside nothing much changed, just the coach end posters.
As an earlier poster said, they were indeed pretty manky.

 

[LowLevel]

They just had "Express" on the sides as per the original Regional Railways brand on the first series of units.

They tried their best to pretend that they weren't proper Virgin trains and I expect they were quite happy when they departed!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Did these 158s sometimes operate some Edinburgh -> Manchester workings in the early days of Virgin's franchise? Seem to remember they were rather cramped and noisy for what was a three hour + service.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

As the VT 158s were in ex-RR livery, these must be with Northern or TfW now?

 

[greatvoyager]

As the VT 158s were in ex-RR livery, these must be with Northern or TfW now?

The units in question, 158747-751, are currently with GWR, some forming part of the 158/9 3-car sets.

 

[LowLevel]

As the VT 158s were in ex-RR livery, these must be with Northern or TfW now?

Great Western. Some are formed in 3 car 158/9s.

158747-751. 158750 had a short spell at TPE first but all eventually ended up with GWR.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Great Western. Some are formed in 3 car 158/9s.

158747-751. 158750 had a short spell at TPE first but all eventually ended up with GWR.

Thanks! I do forget that parts of GWR were RR as most southern regions came under NSE.


- - - - - - -

As mentioned in other posts, Stagecoach is to be absorbed into NatEx, it's sad that a mostly competent company (generally was on SWT) being swallowed by a much worse one.

Anyone reckon NatEx might return to UK railways to manage an allocated GBR region as concessions are lower risk than the former franchising system?

 

[ainsworth74]

Anyone reckon NatEx might return to UK railways to manage an allocated GBR region as concessions are lower risk than the former franchising system?

That might depend on how much churn there's been at the senior grades at NatEx. I rather got the sense that at the end National Express were at a "and a pox on both your houses!" point with the UK rail industry. Have enough senior staff moved on for that feeling to have dissipated and some new buck to think that "there's gold in them thar hills"?

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks! I do forget that parts of GWR were RR as most southern regions came under NSE.


- - - - - - -

As mentioned in other posts, Stagecoach is to be absorbed into NatEx, it's sad that a mostly competent company (generally was on SWT) being swallowed by a much worse one.

Anyone reckon NatEx might return to UK railways to manage an allocated GBR region as concessions are lower risk than the former franchising system?

Keep up! Nothing of the sort! As was extensively reported in the media a few weeks ago the Stagecoach board is recommending a sale to a German asset investment fund.