Was the Pendolino worth it?

[LNW-GW Joint]

There were several other loco-hauled times under 23 minutes for Oxenholme to Penrith, and more than a few Pendolino times over 23 minutes.

From memory that's a very constrained section with not much 125mph running and EPS speeds as little as 5mph above the PS in places.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

So a Class 390 0.43ms vs a Class 800 (Heavy Bi Mode) 0.70ms acceleration

The new 805s will be quicker than a 390

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think they will last till 40 (or even more) years as they are reliable and well suited to the WCML, some could get transferred off the WCML early as some routes get taken over by HS2 but I think they will find a new home for the remaining part of their life, Boris' 'build build build' message means we could be getting more electrification, giving more possible routes for the Pendolinos. When they do need getting replaced we could see high acceleration taking over from tilt however it would be a bigger order than the recent ones for Avanti and TPE which could allow for a new design which couldn't really happen with a small order like TPE's for 12 trains.

I can't think of anywhere surplus Pendolino stock could be cascaded, even with a fairly rapid rolling electrification program.

 

[Energy]

I can't think of anywhere surplus Pendolino stock could be cascaded, even with a fairly rapid rolling electrification program.

East Midlands has been mentioned before, Great Western could take the units to help with the bends in Cornwall and Devon.

 

[EdinburghTrain]

I must say that the Intercity 250 would've looked much nicer than the Pendolino....

InterCity 250 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[paul1609]

It may be worth recalling that it was the disastrous deal that Railtrack did with Virgin which left them with huge financial liabilities, and ultimately brought about their downfall (even without the post-Hatfield fiasco). Railtrack had firmly bought in to the Virgin proposals, and in a fit of utter incompetence promised to deliver an upgrade that could never happen.
I may be being unduly scpetical here, but I wouldn't put too much weight on the even-handedness of any document produced by Railtrack at any time on any subject. They were not fit for purpose, as history shows.

History will suggest that the Great Western Electrification is probably even more incompetent, its just that the same staff had moved to network rail who have been bailed out by the taxpayer.

 

[Domh245]

East Midlands has been mentioned before, Great Western could take the units to help with the bends in Cornwall and Devon.

Replacing 10 year old bespoke units on the MML with 30 year old heavily worked pendolinos would be an odd move. You also have to remember that you'd only be able to use the 9 cars on the MML because of the platform lengths at St Pancras.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I must say that the Intercity 250 would've looked much nicer than the Pendolino....

InterCity 250 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As the design and production would have gone out to competitive tender, it's hard to visualise what the outcome would have been.
GEC-Alsthom (with Fiat) might well have come up with a Pendolino-like train, or maybe more TGV-like (a UK version was then in production for Eurostar).
Derby was by then in the hands of ABB, which was building X2000s in Sweden.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

East Midlands has been mentioned before, Great Western could take the units to help with the bends in Cornwall and Devon.

Devon and Cornwall (Plymouth and Penzance) will not be wired by the time surplus Pendolino stock may be available.

Great Western already have a fleet of bi-mode units which are perfectly capable of utilising new sections of electrification, and can do so in an incremental manner, so as electrification progresses they're capable of extending their electric usage. East Midlands have essentially the same bi-mode rolling stock on its way and will extend their electric usage as MML electrification progresses north to Derby and Sheffield.

 

[edwin_m]

Replacing 10 year old bespoke units on the MML with 30 year old heavily worked pendolinos would be an odd move. You also have to remember that you'd only be able to use the 9 cars on the MML because of the platform lengths at St Pancras.

The MML version of the 80x has roughly the same car length as the 22x units, so is probably easier to get clearance for than the other 80x units. In that sense the MML ones are the only non-bespoke versions! I'm not necessarily saying that putting Pendolinos on the MML is a good idea, just that finding a home for the units they would displace isn't a major concern with it.

 

[jazza374]

I think the Pendolino proved its worth at Grayrigg alone. An incident that could have been much much worse in a train not built like a tank.

 

[jfisher21]

Great trains apart from the smell issue and standard class could have had a bit more leg room.

 

[edwin_m]

Another engineer? Yes of course, we apply the exact same skin thicknesses, materials and so on. A Pendo is literally just a plane without wings...

Or is it the boring stuff about methodology, process, standards, certification and so on.

What the hell, I can see why professionals get fed up here with the ignorant.

Indeed.

Edwin, CEng MIET, ex British Rail Research.

 

[corfield]

Indeed.

Edwin, CEng MIET, ex British Rail Research.

So not a Structures Engineer then, that figures.

 

[edwin_m]

So not a Structures Engineer then, that figures.

I currently work on operational safety among other things, and with 32 years in the railway industry across a wide range of projects I believe I know something about how the railway works as a system. Certainly enough to know that you can't draw conclusions on the success of structural safety measures from a single accident. The wide variety of outcomes to Mk3 stock shows that.

Perhaps if you'd explain why you believe the work you have done makes the Pendolino safer then I might find it a bit more convincing.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I'm no rolling stock engineer, nor am I an aircraft engineer, but do aircraft really have welded double skin extruded aluminium fuselages, and are those fuselages really designed with the structural rigidity and torsional stiffness needed to safely tilt repeatedly for 30+ years ?

I would point out one of the principle reasons the Grayrigg derailment was survivable for many passengers was not solely down to the strength of the bodyshell, there was also an element of extreme good luck with the way the Pendolino struck the trackside OLE masts. The masts were demolished, as one would expect, but fortunately didn't penetrate any of the vehicles. The forces involved were so significant the concrete mast foundations were pulled clean out of the ground and several bogies then impacted those foundations.

That is in stark contrast to Hatfield, where a Mark 4 RSB vehicle, after derailing, hit and demolished two OLE masts (both taller headspan masts). The masts were removed from their foundations and as they were being ripped from their foundations, entered the vehicle, caused significant damage internally and ripped the roof and parts of the bodysides off down to lower window frame level. It was in this vehicle all of the fatalities occurred.

I know the Pendolino stock is very well built, but it wouldn't have fared any differently had luck been even more against the railway that day at Grayrigg.

 

[Bletchleyite]

are those fuselages really designed with the structural rigidity and torsional stiffness needed to safely tilt repeatedly for 30+ years

Erm, yes, because planes turn by tilting?

 

[irish_rail]

Not understood. You've quoted one accident where the Pendolino survived relatively well (though not well enough to prevent it being scrapped) and I've quoted two where Mk3 stock did just as well. If you insist on using a single accident as evidence for structural superiority then two accidents says it's not so.

For very good reasons aircraft structural standards don't make any allowance for the risk of hitting another aircraft, or of hitting anything else other than a landing that's somewhat beyond normal limits. Rail standards specifically cover these cases. An aircraft built to railway structural standards would never get off the ground, and a train build to aircraft standards would have been totally wrecked in a Grayrigg-like accident.

Too be fair, Ufton nervett was a similar speed to grayrigg, 95mph I think and 7 people died. As much as I dislike pendolino passenger experience I do think they are rather safer in a derailment.

 

[edwin_m]

Too be fair, Ufton nervett was a similar speed to grayrigg, 95mph I think and 7 people died. As much as I dislike pendolino passenger experience I do think they are rather safer in a derailment.

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, there have been many high-speed accidents to Mk3 stock and the outcomes have been extremely variable, ranging from bodyshells being largely intact to near-total destruction. This demonstrates that there are many variables in an accident apart from the strength of the vehicles invoilved. So why do people keep thinking that the Pendolino fared relatively well in one accident says much about its overall crashworthiness?

I suggest the real difference is that major accidents have declined significantly in the last couple of decades, so the Pendolino (along with all other rolling stock types) is far less likely to experience one in the first place.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This demonstrates that there are many variables in an accident apart from the strength of the vehicles invoilved. So why do people keep thinking that the Pendolino fared relatively well in one accident says much about its overall crashworthiness?

There are lots of variables, not least a big dollop of luck. At Grayrigg the detailed train didn't hit anything solid like a building or even a steel stanchion supporting the OLE. But it did survive a serious accident in remarkably good condition, and was really more of an economic write-off than anything else.

Compared to, say, Hatfield, it came out of it really well. But it's impossible to compare crashes and, as you say, crashes are very rare now thankfully.

 

[edwin_m]

There are lots of variables, not least a big dollop of luck. At Grayrigg the detailed train didn't hit anything solid like a building or even a steel stanchion supporting the OLE. But it did survive a serious accident in remarkably good condition, and was really more of an economic write-off than anything else.

Indeed, but so did Mk3 stock in several accidents where it similarly didn't hit anything solid. I don't think that tells us anything about whether the Pendolino is more survivable.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

At Grayrigg the detailed train didn't hit anything solid like a building or even a steel stanchion supporting the OLE.

It hit several OLE masts (4 or 5, from memory) and pulled the concrete mast foundations clean out of the ground in the process. The luck which came the railway's way that night was that none of the masts penetrated any carriage(s), as occurred during the Hatfield derailment. That almost certainly saved lives.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It hit several OLE masts (4 or 5, from memory) and pulled the concrete mast foundations clean out of the ground in the process. The luck which came the railway's way that night was that none of the masts penetrated any carriage(s), as occurred during the Hatfield derailment. That almost certainly saved lives.

Weren't masts changed after Hatfield so they just break off when struck?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The luck which came the railway's way that night was that none of the masts penetrated any carriage(s), as occurred during the Hatfield derailment.

I thought Hatfield was because it hit one of the gantries which supported all four lines of OLE, which is obviously heavier and more securely planted in the ground.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Weren't masts changed after Hatfield so they just break off when struck?

The masts did break off, unfortunately in the process of breaking off and interacting with the carriage, two masts penetrated the buffet car and caused an enormous amount of damage.

I thought Hatfield was because it hit one of the gantries which supported all four lines of OLE, which is obviously heavier and more securely planted in the ground.

Masts for the headspans used on that section of line.

 

[mmh]

I thought Hatfield was because it hit one of the gantries which supported all four lines of OLE, which is obviously heavier and more securely planted in the ground.

Pretty standard. A stanchion per track is rare.

 

[edwin_m]

Pretty standard. A stanchion per track is rare.

Yes on a four-track section like Hatfield, no on a two-track section like Grayrigg. Four-track sections with standard track centres have always had heavier than "standard" supports on the outside of the formation, except in some special situations. With older electrification it was a portal structure, in the 70s and 80s it was headspans and on recent schemes it was paired twin track cantilevers.

 

[Railperf]

Really? A full electric 801 does 0-125 in about 4.25 mins and is lighter than an 800.

A Pendolino to the best if my knowledge can do 0-125 in less than 3 mins iirc.

(That of course assumes the figures I have are correct so apologies in advance if they aren't.)

People are forgetting that Pendolinos are being driven round in eco mode at much less than full power and still keeping to time. The acceleration on full power is not far behind a Class 80x.

 

[Railperf]

People are forgetting that Pendolinos are being driven round in eco mode at much less than full power and still keeping to time. The acceleration on full power is not far behind a Class 80x.

Looking at some recorded data - comparing Class 800 and 390 - from rest to five miles from a station stop - the Pendolino is only around 10 to 15 seconds slower than the 800 on full power - at which point both have reached 125mph.
Are people getting confused - thinking about Class 91 /Mk4 sets - or HSTs - which are a minute and a half slower to the same distance??

 

[Railperf]

Getting back to the OP question - yes Pendolino as a project is a great success - in every measure. In my view this shoukd have been the standard Intercity train for every electrified line including a fully electrified MML to Sheffield and through to Leeds. And even GWML to Swansea and Plymouth