Waterloo & City Line - Could there be a new station at Blackfriars?

[William3000]

Having looked at the real geographical route of the Waterloo & City line, I note it runs under the northern entrance to London Blackfriars.

Could it be feasible and/or desirable to build an underground station at Blackfriars providing an interchange with the Circle/District lines and perhaps more importantly with Thameslink services.

This could potentially make it easier to go from London Waterloo and parts of Hampshire/Dorset/Surrey to St Albans, Luton, Luton Airport, Stevenage, Cambridge, and Peterborough.

Logistically I don’t think it would be easy but I wonder whether it could also be extended to Liverpool Street providing access to East Anglia and the Elizabeth line.

 

[DiscoSteve]

A few years ago when working in London I used to take 'the drain' to get to the City from the South Bank - as a point-to-point line - everyone piles on at one end, everyone piles off at the other, there is no way on this earth an intermediate stop, wherever it is, would ever work.

 

[sh24]

A Blackfriars stop has been proposed before. I can't remember exactly why but a combination of cost, lack of capacity and lack of real rational for the intermediate stop ruled it out.

 

[whoosh]

I don't see the point. Anyone arriving from Thameslink or South Eastern at Blackfriars can catch the Circle/District to Mansion House/Cannon Street/Monument and be within walking distance of where they want to be, instead of going deeper underground and trying and fit on full W&C trains (only 4 cars!) that filled up at Waterloo.

Anyone on Thameslink from the north would've changed at Farringdon onto the tube for Moorgate/Liverpool Street or got off at City Thameslink and walked.
Or again, used the Circle/District from Blackfriars.

I'm not sure what purpose a Waterloo & City interchange at Blackfriars would be trying to achieve?

 

[William3000]

I don't see the point. Anyone arriving from Thameslink or South Eastern at Blackfriars can catch the Circle/District to Mansion House/Cannon Street/Monument and be within walking distance of where they want to be, instead of going deeper underground and trying and fit on full W&C trains (only 4 cars!) that filled up at Waterloo.

Anyone on Thameslink from the north would've changed at Farringdon onto the tube for Moorgate/Liverpool Street or got off at City Thameslink and walked.
Or again, used the Circle/District from Blackfriars.

I'm not sure what purpose a Waterloo & City interchange at Blackfriars would be trying to achieve?

Perhaps I wasn’t clear - I travel regularly from Hitchin to Southampton and an easier connection from Blackfriars on the Thameslink line to Waterloo and onwards connections to the southwest would be helpful. Thameslink and Elizabeth Line provide excellent connectivity to main stations like Paddington, London Bridge, King’s Cross, St Pancras, and Liverpool Street. But Waterloo is slightly out on a limb now - not connected to these lines.

 

[The exile]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear - I travel regularly from Hitchin to Southampton and an easier connection from Blackfriars on the Thameslink line to Waterloo and onwards connections to the southwest would be helpful. Thameslink and Elizabeth Line provide excellent connectivity to main stations like Paddington, London Bridge, King’s Cross, St Pancras, and Liverpool Street. But Waterloo is slightly out on a limb now - not connected to these lines.

Rather than drain to Blackfriars why not Waterloo East to London Bridge?

 

[infobleep]

I don't see the point. Anyone arriving from Thameslink or South Eastern at Blackfriars can catch the Circle/District to Mansion House/Cannon Street/Monument and be within walking distance of where they want to be, instead of going deeper underground and trying and fit on full W&C trains (only 4 cars!) that filled up at Waterloo.

Anyone on Thameslink from the north would've changed at Farringdon onto the tube for Moorgate/Liverpool Street or got off at City Thameslink and walked.
Or again, used the Circle/District from Blackfriars.

I'm not sure what purpose a Waterloo & City interchange at Blackfriars would be trying to achieve?

What do people from Waterloo and stations south of there do?

Just go to London Bridge?

 

[William3000]

What do people from Waterloo and stations south of there do?

Just go to London Bridge?

For the South and South East that’s fine but London Bridge doesn’t serve the south-west, so those coming up from Basingstoke, Southampton, Bournemouth, Salisbury etc wouldn’t be using London Bridge.

 

[swt_passenger]

Having looked at the real geographical route of the Waterloo & City line, I note it runs under the northern entrance to London Blackfriars.

Could it be feasible and/or desirable to build an underground station at Blackfriars providing an interchange with the Circle/District lines and perhaps more importantly with Thameslink services.

This could potentially make it easier to go from London Waterloo and parts of Hampshire/Dorset/Surrey to St Albans, Luton, Luton Airport, Stevenage, Cambridge, and Peterborough.

Logistically I don’t think it would be easy but I wonder whether it could also be extended to Liverpool Street providing access to East Anglia and the Elizabeth line.

Not possible, this has been mentioned in many previous threads.

Modern standards require new platforms to be straight and level. The existing tracks are on a gradient to get under the river, and on a significant bend.

The short trains would already be full on arrival at peak times.

 

[The exile]

For the South and South East that’s fine but London Bridge doesn’t serve the south-west, so those coming up from Basingstoke, Southampton, Bournemouth, Salisbury etc wouldn’t be using London Bridge.

Yes but it’s one change away in exactly the same way as Blackfriars would be - just without an 8 or 9 figure sum being spent on a new station.

 

[Failed Unit]

I tend to just walk from Blackfriars down the Southbank and into Waterloo.

 

[43096]

Rather than drain to Blackfriars why not Waterloo East to London Bridge?

Or just walk!

 

[William3000]

I tend to just walk from Blackfriars down the Southbank and into Waterloo.

I’m thinking I would too in some circumstances but not with lots of heavy luggage.

 

[CBlue]

I’m thinking I would too in some circumstances but not with lots of heavy luggage.

Not something that an additional W&C line stop is going to solve. Walking at street level with heavy luggage is definitely preferable to lugging it up and down escalators, and onto undersized deep-level tube trains.

Google maps suggests a four minute saving by public transport from Blackfriars Railway Station to Waterloo over walking by catching a bus. Hardly worth constructing an entire new station for.

 

[Bald Rick]

Network South East considered very briefly - in about 1987 when Thameslink was in the process of being ‘opened’. But it was uickly realised to be very expensive, and the drain trains were (are) all crush loaded anyway in the peaks so no point.

Besides, it is only a 15 minute walk from Blackfriars to Waterloo, less than that to Bank.

 

[Magdalia]

This could potentially make it easier to go from London Waterloo and parts of Hampshire/Dorset/Surrey to St Albans, Luton, Luton Airport, Stevenage, Cambridge, and Peterborough.

I would like to be able to travel between the Fens and Hampshire, but rarely do so, because getting to and from Waterloo is difficult. Using Thameslink, the contrast between getting to Hampshire, and getting to Kent or Sussex, is stark.

Waterloo is slightly out on a limb now

Waterloo is completely out on a limb because it is wrong side of the river. The Drain overcomes (or should that be undercomes?) that for journeys to and from the City but not for wider connectivity.

I tend to just walk from Blackfriars down the Southbank and into Waterloo.

Or just walk!

Besides, it is only a 15 minute walk from Blackfriars to Waterloo

I used to be able to do this, but now it is a walk too far, especially with luggage.

People who can do a 15 minute walk should not take it for granted that everyone is in the same fortunate position.

Rather than drain to Blackfriars why not Waterloo East to London Bridge?

It is still rather a lot of walking.

My preference would be for better connectivity between Thameslink and trains to/from Hampshire at Wimbledon, or somehow getting Thameslink into Clapham Junction.

At present the least worst option is the bus between City Thameslink and Waterloo, which is a fairly short ride via Fleet Street/Waterloo Bridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

People who can do a 15 minute walk should not take it for granted that everyone is in the same fortunate position.

Yes thats a fair comment.

I do think that taking Thameslink to London Bridge, changing there for Waterloo East, and then to Waterloo is relatively straightforward though. Yes it is two changes, but it is step free the whole way, and no more than a few hundred metres walking at most - less than many links between main line station and tube, and no less than the change between Thameslink and an imaginary W&C station at Blackfriars would be.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes thats a fair comment.

I do think that taking Thameslink to London Bridge, changing there for Waterloo East, and then to Waterloo is relatively straightforward though. Yes it is two changes, but it is step free the whole way, and no more than a few hundred metres walking at most - less than many links between main line station and tube, and no less than the change between Thameslink and an imaginary W&C station at Blackfriars would be.

I don’t think King’s Cross - Waterloo is that bad either. One cross platform change an Oxford Circus. (Or whatever route people prefer from our many threads on the topic)

Can’t be any worse then if a stop was built on Waterloo and city.

Not sure what the bus service is like for people that don’t want to use the tube.

 

[The exile]

I would like to be able to travel between the Fens and Hampshire, but rarely do so, because getting to and from Waterloo is difficult. Using Thameslink, the contrast between getting to Hampshire, and getting to Kent or Sussex, is stark.


Waterloo is completely out on a limb because it is wrong side of the river. The Drain overcomes (or should that be undercomes?) that for journeys to and from the City but not for wider connectivity.

Travelling between the Fens and Hampshire with a W&C station at Blackfriars would mean:

Train to Blackfriars
CHANGE
W&C to Waterloo
CHANGE
Train to Hampshire

Now it requires one of several options including:
Train to London Bridge
CHANGE
Train to Waterloo East
CHANGE
Train to Hampshire

Doubt the walk between Waterloo East and the main station is any worse than a putative interchange at Blackfriars would be. Not suggesting that the London Bridge option is the only one, but it exists and since I doubt it could be bettered by the new station, anything even better is a bonus.

 

[infobleep]

For the South and South East that’s fine but London Bridge doesn’t serve the south-west, so those coming up from Basingstoke, Southampton, Bournemouth, Salisbury etc wouldn’t be using London Bridge.

London Blackfriars also doesn't serve the south-west.

The most useful thing but I can't see it happening any time soon would be Crossrail 2. Something that means passengers don't have to get out at London Waterloo and use the Waterloo tube station to head north. Buses are also available.

In the mean time there is always London Waterloo East to London Bridge and then north but I suspect that often isn't recommended as I imagine it is officially slower due to the minimum connection times at both London Waterloo and London Bridge. You'd need half an hour combined, no matter how easy the connection was at London Bridge to head north.

If ine wishes to avoid central London, there is Clapham Junction, where one can change, but a lot of South Western Railway services can't stop there.

London Waterloo isn't the only station not to have cross London links that don't involve the tube. Lonson Euston doesn't. Nor London Victoria. In the case of trains to London Victoria, enough stop at East Croydon if one wants to go north without using the tube.

Travelling between the Fens and Hampshire with a W&C station at Blackfriars would mean:

Train to Blackfriars
CHANGE
W&C to Waterloo
CHANGE
Train to Hampshire

Now it requires one of several options including:
Train to London Bridge
CHANGE
Train to Waterloo East
CHANGE
Train to Hampshire

Doubt the walk between Waterloo East and the main station is any worse than a putative interchange at Blackfriars would be. Not suggesting that the London Bridge option is the only one, but it exists and since I doubt it could be bettered by the new station, anything even better is a bonus.

The Waterloo & City line is also closed on Sundays, which slows one down when they wish to get to and from Liverpool Street.

On other days you go to Bank and then the Central Line to Liverpool Street, which is the next stop. On Sundays it is Norrhern Line to Tottenham Court Road and then Central Line to Liverpool Street.

So instead of two stations it becomes nine.

Of course only the Jublee line has step free access at Waterloo.

 

[stevieinselby]

If connectivity from the Hampshire area is the issue then a cheaper option might be to stop more regional SWR services at Wimbledon, where passengers can make an easier change to Thameslink services than from Waterloo to Waterloo East, and then it will be a same-platform change at Blackfriars/City/Farringdon/St Pancras for onward trains to Cambridge, Peterborough or Bedford which again is easier than changing at London Bridge. Obviously that's already an option for a lot of people living in suburban SW London and out to places like Dorking, Woking and Guildford, but people travelling from further out would currently need an additional change to do that.

 

[Magdalia]

Travelling between the Fens and Hampshire with a W&C station at Blackfriars would mean:

Train to Blackfriars
CHANGE
W&C to Waterloo
CHANGE
Train to Hampshire

Now it requires one of several options including:
Train to London Bridge
CHANGE
Train to Waterloo East
CHANGE
Train to Hampshire

Doubt the walk between Waterloo East and the main station is any worse than a putative interchange at Blackfriars would be. Not suggesting that the London Bridge option is the only one, but it exists and since I doubt it could be bettered by the new station, anything even better is a bonus.

I'm not advocating the Waterloo and City option, it clearly does not work for reasons given above.

If connectivity from the Hampshire area is the issue then a cheaper option might be to stop more regional SWR services at Wimbledon, where passengers can make an easier change to Thameslink services than from Waterloo to Waterloo East, and then it will be a same-platform change at Blackfriars/City/Farringdon/St Pancras for onward trains to Cambridge, Peterborough or Bedford which again is easier than changing at London Bridge. Obviously that's already an option for a lot of people living in suburban SW London and out to places like Dorking, Woking and Guildford, but people travelling from further out would currently need an additional change to do that.

This is what I'd like to see. It doesn't help that, coming north, the connections off the Woking trains onto Thameslink at Wimbledon are just about as bad as it could be.

I do think that taking Thameslink to London Bridge, changing there for Waterloo East, and then to Waterloo is relatively straightforward though. Yes it is two changes, but it is step free the whole way

Does that still require walking up the ramp at Waterloo East or is there a lift?

It is the height difference that screws things up for me, not the steps.

 

[dastocks]

For the price of a couple of short lengths of viaduct (one at Waterloo, the other near Southwark tube station) the SWR network could be connected to Blackfriars (and Thameslink!) directly...

 

[Flinn Reed]

In the current form, as other comments have already mentioned, it would be difficult to justify adding a stop at Blackfriars when alternatives are already available to connect to Waterloo and Bank (though a direct Blackfriars-Waterloo bus route could be useful). Maybe platforms at Blackfriars might have been built if the W&C had ever been extended further at either end?

A lot of proposals have been suggested before to make more use of the Waterloo & City line - the issue is generally that there isn't the space underground to extend northwards from Bank (e.g. to link to the Northern City line at Moorgate), but what about diverting to the east instead? Would it viable to convert the W&C to form part of the DLR network?

Basically using most of the W&C alignment but adapting the infrastructure to DLR standards. Then building a new connecting tunnel diverting near Mansion House, to serve new platforms near Cannon Street, then connecting to the current DLR tunnels near Tower Hill - also serving new platforms here to replace Tower Gateway. There is currently a difference in tunnel depth between the W&C and DLR, but the DLR can handle steeper gradients so the connecting tunnel may be able to achieve this.

It seems the biggest problem with this idea is the tunnel size. The DLR trains are still small but don't have the same circular profile like tube stock. If it is too difficult to expand the tunnels, another option could be to concentrate the new B23 stock exclusively on the Stratford routes, not serving Central London. Then order a new stock alongside with a more rounded profile (similar to the Glasgow Subway trains) to run the Central London routes. And also brand these separately like the different Overground lines.

 

[Horizon22]

London Blackfriars also doesn't serve the south-west.

The most useful thing but I can't see it happening any time soon would be Crossrail 2.

Yes this journey is the exact type that Crossrail 2 would be great for to provide that Kings Cross/StP - Waterloo connectivity

If connectivity from the Hampshire area is the issue then a cheaper option might be to stop more regional SWR services at Wimbledon, where passengers can make an easier change to Thameslink services than from Waterloo to Waterloo East, and then it will be a same-platform change at Blackfriars/City/Farringdon/St Pancras for onward trains to Cambridge, Peterborough or Bedford which again is easier than changing at London Bridge. Obviously that's already an option for a lot of people living in suburban SW London and out to places like Dorking, Woking and Guildford, but people travelling from further out would currently need an additional change to do that.

That's a relatively slow Thameslink rounder you're getting on though, no quicker than continuing to Waterloo really.

 

[infobleep]

If connectivity from the Hampshire area is the issue then a cheaper option might be to stop more regional SWR services at Wimbledon, where passengers can make an easier change to Thameslink services than from Waterloo to Waterloo East, and then it will be a same-platform change at Blackfriars/City/Farringdon/St Pancras for onward trains to Cambridge, Peterborough or Bedford which again is easier than changing at London Bridge. Obviously that's already an option for a lot of people living in suburban SW London and out to places like Dorking, Woking and Guildford, but people travelling from further out would currently need an additional change to do that.

It is faster from Guildford to go to London Waterloo so that is what most hourney planners or perhaps all, without any user intervention, will show.

During the peaks Wombledon station is very busy when changing platforms. It's may officially be 6 minutes but your best being in the right part of the train to ensure you make your connection.

There is another option, only go through London on a Sunday or during Wimbledon tennis championship as on those days there are fast trains and/or semi-fast that stop at Wimbledon.

The two weeks of Wimbledon gives you the best choice of days and a greater range of services from different destinations.

 

[stevieinselby]

That's a relatively slow Thameslink rounder you're getting on though, no quicker than continuing to Waterloo really.

The issue wasn't so much speed as ease of connection – the problem with getting a fast train into Waterloo, SouthEastern from Waterloo East to London Bridge and then Thameslink north from there is not so much that it is slow, as that the changes involve quite a bit of walking and so may not be the easiest for people who are less mobile, have a lot of luggage, or are just generally less confident at finding their way around major stations.

 

[Horizon22]

The issue wasn't so much speed as ease of connection – the problem with getting a fast train into Waterloo, SouthEastern from Waterloo East to London Bridge and then Thameslink north from there is not so much that it is slow, as that the changes involve quite a bit of walking and so may not be the easiest for people who are less mobile, have a lot of luggage, or are just generally less confident at finding their way around major stations.

I'd say the interchange Waterloo - Waterloo East and within London Bridge is actually shorter than many London Underground stations and completely step-free.

 

[paul1609]

I would like to be able to travel between the Fens and Hampshire, but rarely do so, because getting to and from Waterloo is difficult. Using Thameslink, the contrast between getting to Hampshire, and getting to Kent or Sussex, is stark.


Waterloo is completely out on a limb because it is wrong side of the river. The Drain overcomes (or should that be undercomes?) that for journeys to and from the City but not for wider connectivity.






I used to be able to do this, but now it is a walk too far, especially with luggage.

People who can do a 15 minute walk should not take it for granted that everyone is in the same fortunate position.


It is still rather a lot of walking.

My preference would be for better connectivity between Thameslink and trains to/from Hampshire at Wimbledon, or somehow getting Thameslink into Clapham Junction.

At present the least worst option is the bus between City Thameslink and Waterloo, which is a fairly short ride via Fleet Street/Waterloo Bridge.

It depends where you are going to and from but Thameslink has direct connections at East Croydon same platform to Hampshire (Emsworth, Havant, Portsmouth & IOW - 2tph) and Brighton 200 metres round the bufferstops (( Emsworth, Havant, Cosham (taxi to international Port/ Cruise Ships), Fareham, Swanwick, Woolston (Taxi to Ocean village and Cruise Ships) & Southampton Central - 2TPH)). Obviously it isnt a solution in terms of shortest journeys but if its mobility.
Taking the Forums sites interpretation of normal connection times including the minimum london connections, a worst case scenario of Kings Lynn to Southampton has a time penalty of around 1.75 hours using Kings Lynn,Cambridge, Brighton versus Kings Lynn, Kings Cross, Tube, Waterloo. Most of the places east of Southampton have a time penalty of around an hour.

 

[Magdalia]

It depends where you are going to and from but Thameslink has direct connections at East Croydon same platform to Hampshire (Emsworth, Havant, Portsmouth & IOW - 2tph) and Brighton 200 metres round the bufferstops (( Emsworth, Havant, Cosham (taxi to international Port/ Cruise Ships), Fareham, Swanwick, Woolston (Taxi to Ocean village and Cruise Ships) & Southampton Central - 2TPH)). Obviously it isnt a solution in terms of shortest journeys but if its mobility.
Taking the Forums sites interpretation of normal connection times including the minimum london connections, a worst case scenario of Kings Lynn to Southampton has a time penalty of around 1.75 hours using Kings Lynn,Cambridge, Brighton versus Kings Lynn, Kings Cross, Tube, Waterloo. Most of the places east of Southampton have a time penalty of around an hour.

I have done Cambridge-Havant/Portsmouth via East Croydon many times. It doesn't work so well for further west, especially now that the through trains East Croydon-Southampton have gone.

But for the large part of Hampshire that is inland from the West Coastway, Thameslink to/from East Croydon is no help, that requires going via Woking.