Ways to improve the First Glasgow Network

[PaulMc7]

One thing Lothian do well is contra-peak services... e.g. as well as the Straiton corridor having busy peak buses taking Penicuik commuters into the City Centre (and Western General etc) in the morning rush hour, equivalent expresses are running southbound taking Students etc to the research facilities at Bush... same with the X25 which takes passengers out of the city to Herriot Watt in the morning rush hour, the X12 which takes passengers out to Gyle etc in the morning rush hour (instead of just a simple network of expresses *into* the city centre in the morning).

But are there places around Glasgow where that kind of thing would work? Other than the long established extension of some rush hour services up to the University.



How about terminating the 2 at Clydebank and running a frequent Clydebank - Kilbowie - Hardgate corridor, half the services running to Faifley (replacing the 2), half running the 81 loop (Beeches Road etc)?

Say every five minutes towards Hardogate, which means every ten to Faifley and every ten to Beeches Road... but each service extending half hourly into Glasgow via the "1" route, so providing a fifteen minute frequency from Glasgow up Kilbowie Road? So a frequent link to Clydebank retained, a faster bus for those wanting to travel all the way into Glasgow, a more reliable 2 from Clydebank through Partick etc.

• 62: Faifley - Kilbowie Road - Clydebank (every ten minutes, extending half hourly into Glasgow)
• 63: Beeches Road - Kilbowie Road - Clydebank (every ten minutes, extending half hourly into Glasgow)

Something like that?

That could definitely work. Duntocher is quite heavily bused for an area that is so small as there's the 81, Avondale's 300 and West Coast Motors' 17 all of which are very frequent. Could brand them as shop local services too although Clydebank in terms of shopping is dying a very quick death. It's never really used outside of locals going in for some shopping

 

[Gingerbus1991]

That could definitely work. Duntocher is quite heavily bused for an area that is so small as there's the 81, Avondale's 300 and West Coast Motors' 17 all of which are very frequent. Could brand them as shop local services too although Clydebank in terms of shopping is dying a very quick death. It's never really used outside of locals going in for some shopping

All of which don't stand out from each other, I feel pitty for that area as every bus up round that way is usually hingin, I cannot understand why First and Avoldales have had it out for so long..

I can't help but feel if the 81 has new small 200MMCs on it even the oldies would find them alittle more impressive.

 

[PaulMc7]

All of which don't stand out from each other, I feel pitty for that area as every bus up round that way is usually hingin, I cannot understand why First and Avoldales have had it out for so long..

I can't help but feel if the 81 has new small 200MMCs on it even the oldies would find them alittle more impressive.

First could wipe Avondale out completely if they wanted to so it shows the lack of ambition that they haven't even tried. Gave up the 42 against the 400, don't challenge more to their 300, gave up Linnvale to the 200 and gave Parkhall to Avondale's 100 completely. The M60 is competitive but I've still seen busy 200s even with 2nd/3rd hand buses on them

 

[CM]

Sending the 1 series of routes down Glasgow Road is a total non starter. Nobody is going to walk all the way from Barnes Street to Glasgow Road to catch a 1 when they can literally walk out their front door and onto a 2 or a 6. It won't work. All you have on the section of Glasgow Road between Argyll Road in Clydebank and Yokermill Road is industrial units, half of them probably empty. The buses go down Barnes Street because that's where the money is. If First etc etc knew there was money to be made by sending buses down Glasgow Road do you not think they'd already have done it by now?

 

[PaulMc7]

Sending the 1 series of routes down Glasgow Road is a total non starter. Nobody is going to walk all the way from Barnes Street to Glasgow Road to catch a 1 when they can literally walk out their front door and onto a 2 or a 6. It won't work. All you have on the section of Glasgow Road between Argyll Road in Clydebank and Yokermill Road is industrial units, half of them probably empty. The buses go down Barnes Street because that's where the money is. If First etc etc knew there was money to be made by sending buses down Glasgow Road do you not think they'd already have done it by now?

That's why I suggested keeping the 1D and a new 1F on Barns st. The reliability of the Balloch/Helensburgh 1s is genuinely horrendous so it would improve that and also offer people a quicker alternative into Clydebank. Would still lead to an every 10min frequency on Barns St for expresses too which is what the old 204/215/216 series was

 

[CM]

That's why I suggested keeping the 1D and a new 1F on Barns st. The reliability of the Balloch/Helensburgh 1s is genuinely horrendous so it would improve that and also offer people a quicker alternative into Clydebank. Would still lead to an every 10min frequency on Barns St for expresses too which is what the old 204/215/216 series was

While the 1s that you are so desperate to send down Glasgow Road stop picking up passengers because there is none to pick up and First decide to cut them back because of this. Most people who use the 1s from Balloch/Helensburgh use it to get to Clydebank with not many going into the City as anyone from Balloch, Helensburgh and Dumbarton will use the train to get to Glasgow.

 

[PaulMc7]

While the 1s that you are so desperate to send down Glasgow Road stop picking up passengers because there is none to pick up and First decide to cut them back because of this. Most people who use the 1s from Balloch/Helensburgh use it to get to Clydebank with not many going into the City as anyone from Balloch, Helensburgh and Dumbarton will use the train to get to Glasgow.

I use the 1s constantly tbh. It doesn't need 9 an hour off peak through Whitecrook and even with the changes I suggested Whitecrook would still have a 10 min frequency for expresses. The extras at peaks could definitely be sent through there but off peak there's not a need. Even First's mobile app can barely track the 1s because they are late so often. Even as it is the 1s are barely busy beyond Old Kilpatrick towards Balloch/Helensburgh so I'm surprised there's not been a cut of some sort yet

I stay in a position where I can walk to get the Dumbarton Road 1s but the 1C is slightly closer. The 1C is usually on time towards the City Centre whereas at least 6 or 7 of the 9 1s an hour at Dumbarton Road are late. It's a no brainer which to use because even the app isn't always great. Also doesn't help that the time scheduling between Clydebank and Scotstoun is weird and rarely gives the bus a chance to be on time

 

[St Rollox]

When you'll have heard before that people are "car-centric", if you had a substantial salary, working in the city with a fancy office would you want to take a bus or drive the BMW to work.

Of course you'd want to drive the fancy car where ever it takes you to, the City, countryside or the motorway..

It does not come down to anything other than people needing "forced" out of a car if thats what it eventually came too.

They can congestion charge but many will still be able to afford it, the only way to stop commuters driving into the city is simply to say the bad word "NO".

Hopefully between the Low Emission Zone and bus gates the message will finally kick in with the car lovers.
Slightly easier now with partial bus lanes but i can remember it taking an hour to go from Charing Cross to Govanhill because of gridlock by the selfish one car one person brigade.
And don't even mention the 3pm school run females.

 

[PaulMc7]

Hopefully between the Low Emission Zone and bus gates the message will finally kick in with the car lovers.
Slightly easier now with partial bus lanes but i can remember it taking an hour to go from Charing Cross to Govanhill because of gridlock by the selfish one car one person brigade.
And don't even mention the 3pm school run females.

I am glad I've finished with school for the last 7 years now because my old school was so bad for horrendous parking on the main road. It was the old 44 at the time and it was quicker to walk to Dumbarton Road for another bus at times because even if the bus came quickly it could barely get by parked cars.

 

[PaulMc7]

Been thinking about how many services terminate in the City Centre and how some of the shorter routes like the 64/65 etc could be extended to give new options to people again.

Some of the longer routes that terminate in the city centre like the 1s, 240s etc I would keep in there but I'm sure there's a few things possible worth trying. Could also be integrated to cut the routes of some of First's longest services too. I feel like some services outside of the city centre could be extended too. Another thing I think it could help is some lower usage services too. M4, X4, 64 and 94 are fairly low usage from experience and I'm sure there are other services too that could benefit from route extensions.

Some ideas so far:

Remove 6A and reextend 41 through 6A route.

Extend 19/19A to Silverburn and remove 10

Extend 64 to Great Western Retail Park via Finnieston, Partick, Scotstoun and Garscadden with 1C route

Extend 21 to Castle Street to give links to Strathclyde University, City of Glasgow College and Royal Infirmary

Extend 65 to Knightswood via Charing Cross, Kelvingrove Park, Glasgow University, Hyndland, Broomhill, Jordanhill and Lincoln Avenue. As a result make the X4 hourly off peak

Extend 9/9A to Torrance/Kilsyth/Bishopbriggs replacing 89/89A/89B

Extend 87 to Castlemilk via City Centre, Govanhill, Battlefield, Croftfoot replacing the 5

Extend alternate 206 journeys to Helensburgh and terminate 1B at Dumbarton High St

Extend 18 and bring in 18A to Glasgow University via Bath Street, Sauchiehall Street, Dumbarton Road, Church Street and University Avenue. 18A operates in reverse loop. Both services every 20mins alternating every 10mins

Extend M2 and 74 from Toryglen to Braehead replacing service 90

As a result operate 90 from Partick to Victoria Infirmary via current route then terminate via Langside Avenue then Grange Road

Operate 8 from QEUH to Robroyston and use 8A between Robroyston and Carmyle via current route to Parkhead then via Tollcross Road, Carmyle Avenue and River Road

Operate 60/60A between Maryhill at Glenfinnan Road and Easterhouse only. Start on Garrioch Road towards Easterhouse. Replace Clydebank to Maryhill section with extended M60 and new variation of 61A to Milgavie from Sandyhills

Extend service 16 from QEUH via Govan Cross onto 3 route to Silverburn and run the 3 from Silverburn to Drumchapel. Increase in frequency required too. Operate service 16 to Silverburn from Blairdardie every 30 mins with 16A from Partick also every 30 mins alternating with 16

Extend M11 and renumber 11 to Braehead via Hyndland Road, Byres Road, Dumbarton Road, Clyde Tunnel, QEUH to give upper West end shopping link. Operates hourly. Operate 11A from Clydebank also via same route to Anniesland then Kelvindale instead of Gartnavel Hospital. Operates hourly with alternating 30mins with 11

Run 201 from Hamilton to Airdrie, Petersburn only as replaced with extended 266 running Newmains/Shotts to Hairmyres

Extend 43 from Easterhouse to Bargeddie via Swinton and Baillieston

Cut service 2 to every 10 mins and operate between Clydebank and Baillieston only. Replace with new 1F service between City Centre and Faifley. Also remove service 1D and replace with new service 82 between Mountblow and Clydebank Asda

 

[route101]

Been thinking about how many services terminate in the City Centre and how some of the shorter routes like the 64/65 etc could be extended to give new options to people again.

Some of the longer routes that terminate in the city centre like the 1s, 240s etc I would keep in there but I'm sure there's a few things possible worth trying. Could also be integrated to cut the routes of some of First's longest services too. I feel like some services outside of the city centre could be extended too. Another thing I think it could help is some lower usage services too. M4, X4, 64 and 94 are fairly low usage from experience and I'm sure there are other services too that could benefit from route extensions.

Some ideas so far:

Remove 6A and reextend 41 through 6A route.

Extend 19/19A to Silverburn and remove 10

Extend 64 to Great Western Retail Park via Finnieston, Partick, Scotstoun and Garscadden with 1C route

Extend 21 to Castle Street to give links to Strathclyde University, City of Glasgow College and Royal Infirmary

Extend 65 to Knightswood via Charing Cross, Kelvingrove Park, Glasgow University, Hyndland, Broomhill, Jordanhill and Lincoln Avenue. As a result make the X4 hourly off peak

Extend 9/9A to Torrance/Kilsyth/Bishopbriggs replacing 89/89A/89B

Extend 87 to Castlemilk via City Centre, Govanhill, Battlefield, Croftfoot replacing the 5

Extend alternate 206 journeys to Helensburgh and terminate 1B at Dumbarton High St

Extend 18 and bring in 18A to Glasgow University via Bath Street, Sauchiehall Street, Dumbarton Road, Church Street and University Avenue. 18A operates in reverse loop. Both services every 20mins alternating every 10mins

Extend M2 and 74 from Toryglen to Braehead replacing service 90

As a result operate 90 from Partick to Victoria Infirmary via current route then terminate via Langside Avenue then Grange Road

Operate 8 from QEUH to Robroyston and use 8A between Robroyston and Carmyle via current route to Parkhead then via Tollcross Road, Carmyle Avenue and River Road

Operate 60/60A between Maryhill at Glenfinnan Road and Easterhouse only. Start on Garrioch Road towards Easterhouse. Replace Clydebank to Maryhill section with extended M60 and new variation of 61A to Milgavie from Sandyhills

Extend service 16 from QEUH via Govan Cross onto 3 route to Silverburn and run the 3 from Silverburn to Drumchapel. Increase in frequency required too. Operate service 16 to Silverburn from Blairdardie every 30 mins with 16A from Partick also every 30 mins alternating with 16

Extend M11 and renumber 11 to Braehead via Hyndland Road, Byres Road, Dumbarton Road, Clyde Tunnel, QEUH to give upper West end shopping link. Operates hourly. Operate 11A from Clydebank also via same route to Anniesland then Kelvindale instead of Gartnavel Hospital. Operates hourly with alternating 30mins with 11

Run 201 from Hamilton to Airdrie, Petersburn only as replaced with extended 266 running Newmains/Shotts to Hairmyres

Extend 43 from Easterhouse to Bargeddie via Swinton and Baillieston

Cut service 2 to every 10 mins and operate between Clydebank and Baillieston only. Replace with new 1F service between City Centre and Faifley. Also remove service 1D and replace with new service 82 between Mountblow and Clydebank Asda

41 on the 6a route , is that not the way the 41 used to go up GWR road .
18 used to go through West End too .

9 going to to Torrance etc , only problem is the 9 is FIG 1 and the EX cumbernauld routes FIG 2.

 

[PaulMc7]

41 on the 6a route , is that not the way the 41 used to go up GWR road .
18 used to go through West End too .

9 going to to Torrance etc , only problem is the 9 is FIG 1 and the EX cumbernauld routes FIG 2.

Yeah the 41 would be it's old route. 18 is part of it to Church st and yeah that's also true. Could be split operation from Scotstoun/Caledonia I think to get the best out of it

 

[route101]

Yeah the 41 would be it's old route. 18 is part of it to Church st and yeah that's also true. Could be split operation from Scotstoun/Caledonia I think to get the best out of it

Would need more buses on the 18 ?

 

[PaulMc7]

Would need more buses on the 18 ?

Yeah 3 or 4 if I've calculated that right hence cuts to other services I suggested to try and balance it out

 

[route101]

Yeah 3 or 4 if I've calculated that right hence cuts to other services I suggested to try and balance it out

You should apply to First for a job ha

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Extend 87 to Castlemilk via City Centre, Govanhill, Battlefield, Croftfoot replacing the 5

Extend 9/9A to Torrance/Kilsyth/Bishopbriggs replacing 89/89A/89B

Extend 19/19A to Silverburn and remove 10

You've got to remember it was not that long ago the 10 was split in two parts in the city centre with the 10 continuing to cover the southside and 87 replacing the Woodhill end. 3-4 years before that the 9 and 9A became southside only with the 3 running the Drumchapel. That would suggest FG don't have confidence that the Paisley Road services can run cross-city possibly for reliability reasons.

As some posters have been commenting on bunching and I think it is an issue that has to be rectified rather than major route changes but it's a question of whether First has the capital available as it would require putting more buses into service. Bunching has always been a problem on frequent routes and you'll notice it in just about any city in the UK thus forcing operators to increase their peak vehicle requirement to solve the issue.

 

[PaulMc7]

You should apply to First for a job ha

I'd probably be too creative and ambitious for them haha

 

[PaulMc7]

You've got to remember it was not that long ago the 10 was split in two parts in the city centre with the 10 continuing to cover the southside and 87 replacing the Woodhill end. 3-4 years before that the 9 and 9A became southside only with the 3 running the Drumchapel. That would suggest FG don't have confidence that the Paisley Road services can run cross-city possibly for reliability reasons.

As some posters have been commenting on bunching and I think it is an issue that has to be rectified rather than major route changes but it's a question of whether First has the capital available as it would require putting more buses into service. Bunching has always been a problem on frequent routes and you'll notice it in just about any city in the UK thus forcing operators to increase their peak vehicle requirement to solve the issue.

The thing I've found with experience is that the south side part of the 3 is the better part with the exception of parts of shawlands. Yeah congestion is horrific in Glasgow and sadly I use a lot of services with very long routes so I know all about the bunching. Think the council need to go all out and lay down a marker to bus companies about pricing and then remove cars from the city centre. Reducing shop rents would also help as it's nowhere near as attractive as it used to be. Surprised First or any other operator haven't tried to focus more on Glasgow Fort, Silverburn and Braehead as they're the best areas to shop. Even Strathkelvin Retail Park is pretty good

 

[PaulMc7]

There's way First can improve that they can control and things they can't improve without council help etc.

Cheaper pricing
Cleaner buses
Keeping the route network fresh with new ideas when things get stale. Bigger refreshes every say 3/4 years
Sensible layover and route timing
More interest in customer feedback regarding cuts and route suggestions
Effective social media with accurate local info from a local based team instead of a contact centre with little Glasgow knowledge

On the other hand there's congestion issues the council need to target. My way for that would be to completely remove cars from the city centre and make bus lanes for buses only with nothing else

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Cleaner buses

To be fair buses are cleaned over night. The biggest issue is the public and their lack of care by treating the buses like dustbins and putting their feet on the seats.

Keeping the route network fresh with new ideas when things get stale. Bigger refreshes every say 3/4 years

There's an old saying if it aint broke don't fix it. Look at Lothian Buses network where the core routes have hardly changed in 20 years.

Sensible layover and route timing

Layover time at terminuses is an necessity but journey times are always hit or a miss as no one can ever predict what could occur day-to-day.

Effective social media with accurate local info from a local based team instead of a contact centre with little Glasgow knowledge

I assume this is an issue throughout the whole group.

 

[PaulMc7]

To be fair buses are cleaned over night. The biggest issue is the public and their lack of care by treating the buses like dustbins and putting their feet on the seats.

There's an old saying if it aint broke don't fix it. Look at Lothian Buses network where the core routes have hardly changed in 20 years.

Layover time at terminuses is an necessity but journey times are always hit or a miss as no one can ever predict what could occur day-to-day.

I assume this is an issue throughout the whole group.

Yeah the public really don't help although a lot of the time you could literally get one of the first buses in the morning and it could still look like it's not been cleaned for months. Problem with Glasgow is that things are broken and only getting worse. Yeah things can be unpredictable but even with smooth running there's still some services that can't stay on time at all. Yeah the social media thing needs looked at. Having one contact centre in England isn't the way forward at all for anywhere

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Does anyone else feel short changed by First in Glasgow?

Visited edinburgh the other day, rode on a hybrid decker and a XLB, realistically there not as fancy as many may think, I think it's just the inherent maroon and white that makes them feel that way plus the interior colours and wood flooring makes them feel inviting if you like.

I stay in glasgow and now use the 2 every day for work and few others for shopping and leisure etc, I've seen what looks like a decade old drool of spit on the back of one of the seats before and seats covered in what I can only describe as dryer cider where as the few buses I used in edinburgh were near as spotless as they come.

I certainly feels though that things like dual-screen information displays on many of Edinburgh's buses as well as a comprehensive next-stop system is one thing glasgow misses out on to make there bus services at least only seem better.

Should First Glasgow be using more upmarket options like the wood flooring as even there latest new buses on the 77 feel rather on the basic side.

 

[PaulMc7]

Does anyone else feel short changed by First in Glasgow?

Visited edinburgh the other day, rode on a hybrid decker and a XLB, realistically there not as fancy as many may think, I think it's just the inherent maroon and white that makes them feel that way plus the interior colours and wood flooring makes them feel inviting if you like.

I stay in glasgow and now use the 2 every day for work and few others for shopping and leisure etc, I've seen what looks like a decade old drool of spit on the back of one of the seats before and seats covered in what I can only describe as dryer cider where as the few buses I used in edinburgh were near as spotless as they come.

I certainly feels though that things like dual-screen information displays on many of Edinburgh's buses as well as a comprehensive next-stop system is one thing glasgow misses out on to make there bus services at least only seem better.

Should First Glasgow be using more upmarket options like the wood flooring as even there latest new buses on the 77 feel rather on the basic side.

I think the thing in Glasgow is that the people aren't anywhere near as clean as Edinburgh tbh. Buses in Glasgow end up full of rubbish and just about anything else too tbh. There was urine on the back seats of the 29 I got the other day too. First's problem is that they didn't keep investing in new buses each year and then hit the panic button when the LEZ was announced. They would be far closer to having a ready made fleet for it if they did any forward planning at all

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I think the thing in Glasgow is that the people aren't anywhere near as clean as Edinburgh tbh. Buses in Glasgow end up full of rubbish and just about anything else too tbh. There was urine on the back seats of the 29 I got the other day too. First's problem is that they didn't keep investing in new buses each year and then hit the panic button when the LEZ was announced. They would be far closer to having a ready made fleet for it if they did any forward planning at all

I understand that about about glasgow, but should that mean that any company becomes lazy at the end of the days cleaning duties?

 

[PaulMc7]

I understand that about about glasgow, but should that mean that any company becomes lazy at the end of the days cleaning duties?

Yeah I agree. I've seen some buses that are very clean but they're also fresh out the depot too. Drivers end up taking loads of rubbish to bins at the terminus a lot of the time

 

[route101]

Yeah I agree. I've seen some buses that are very clean but they're also fresh out the depot too. Drivers end up taking loads of rubbish to bins at the terminus a lot of the time

Ive been on buses in the mornin that are still wet , seats wet . Do they hose the inside of the buses ?

 

[PaulMc7]

Ive been on buses in the mornin that are still wet , seats wet . Do they hose the inside of the buses ?

Yeah it seems like that's the case. I used to get a 335 into clydebank for my old job and it was at 8:05 and it was still usually wet regardless of what type of bus it was

 

[route101]

Yeah it seems like that's the case. I used to get a 335 into clydebank for my old job and it was at 8:05 and it was still usually wet regardless of what type of bus it was

As long as not covered in chemicals ha

 

[PaulMc7]

As long as not covered in chemicals ha

Yeah definitely lol. Got a nice surprise on the 60 earlier. 66 plate decker with the wooden concept flooring and light blue painted. Was so much better than the usual 54 plate riots

 

[route101]

Yeah definitely lol. Got a nice surprise on the 60 earlier. 66 plate decker with the wooden concept flooring and light blue painted. Was so much better than the usual 54 plate riots

Ex west lothian ones ?

Sometimes the wooden flooring can look dirty and absorb stuff , the national express coach i was , was like that.

54 plates and eclipses can be a riot .