WCML Derailment in Cumbria - 29th May 2024

[The Planner]

I’ve often wondered given their new Bi Modes why they can’t run one or 2 daily services London- Scotland via the S & C.

They don't have enough, if they use 805s for that then North Wales won't get a service.

It’d retain route knowledge & give Appleby, Settle & Blackburn passengers at least 1 direct service each way between London & Scotland

You assume they would stop there. That is a big assumption.

 

[johnr57]

anyone any update as to when it might be cleared

 

[Carlisle]

You assume they would stop there. That is a big assumption.

Indeed, guess there’d be little point in such a service if it didn’t at least serve those 3 vocations on route.

 

[rower40]

Another risk with ‘squeezing through’ next to derailed wagons (e.g. with a 5mph ESR) is this: there’s less certainty that the wagons will stay put when the trackbed is jostled by each passing train. When the wagons are still on the rails, it becomes easier to guarantee that they won’t move sideways.

 

[Lucy1501]

Trains appear to be back on the move on the up line past Hardendale according to traksy!

 

[Skiddaw]

Having been watching the progress of the single line working, it strikes me as to how they’ve made the section from Penrith to Tebay, rather than making use of the emergency ground frames at Clifton & Lowther and the points at Shap Summit. In fact, the trailing crossover at Harrison’s Sidings could be used in lieu of Clifton & Lowther (albeit requiring a reverse).

Carlisle is one of the few boxes left with a relative abundance of trailing and emergency crossovers - I’m surprised they’re not being used to their fullest potential. It could dramatically improve throughput at the moment!

I live in Clifton

What is an emergency ground frame? Is it something to do with the passing loop on the up line?

 

[Lucy1501]

I live in Clifton

What is an emergency ground frame? Is it something to do with the passing loop on the up line?

Mechanical signal boxes often have, or had, a trailing crossover that can be used to switch between the lines. These are a great help in the event of turning back trains, engineering works, or single line working.

When Carlisle PSB was introduced, many of the locations of the former boxes kept their crossovers, with the addition of a new facing one as well as trailing ones. Rather than go through the expense of converting them to electric operation controlled directly from the panel, they kept them as they were on the ground controlled by a mechanical ground frame (a lever frame). These emergency ground frames are released by the signal box and allow trains to cross over between the lines under the authority of ground staff. They are termed "emergency" as they are not intended to be used in general service, only disruptions.

At the time of the power boxes opening, there was:

• Milnthorpe EGF
• Oxenholme EGF
• Lambrigg Crossing Frame, which was controlled by the gate box there until its abolition a few years later. These were involved in the Grayrigg crash and subsequently removed.
• Low Gill EGF
• Tebay EGF, which is now controlled by the box and a fully signalled route.
• Shap Summit EGF
• Clifton & Lowther EGF
• There is an emergency crossover at Penrith worked from the box, originally intended for moves to the CKP railway which was used during this single line working.
• Plumpton EGF
• Upperby EGF
• Quintinshill EGF

Some of these frames have been removed, made into switch panels rather than lever frames, or are now controlled directly from the signal box.

I've attached a photo I have of one of the office copies of the diagram for the trailing Clifton & Lowther crossover.

 

[QueensCurve]

And very little will get south until the wagons are moved, the clearance isn't enough with the loco - single line working is to be implemented.

One of those incidents that would have resulted in minimal disruption had bidirectional signalling been provided as is the case in European countries that fund their infrastructure properly.

Is the Cumbrian coast route still closed? Is it possible to drag Avanti trains via the S&C?

No, because Avanti dont "sign" the route as noted above. Also lack of locomotives or diesel stock.

And what would drag them.
Only two thunderbirds now and one of them was failed today…
Glasgow drivers no longer sign Voyagers

Which will put the kibosh on diversions via the G&SW when they would help.

I wonder if the line is actually fouled or is the kinematic envelope just compromised? The difference could be that between a collision and a close thing. The photos from NR appear (and only that) as if a train could 'scrape' by without anything damaging happening, but I could be wrong. Obviously there is a difference between knowlingly allowing trains past and a derailment coming to rest near a passing train. I don't know if there is any sort of compromise used for trap points where OHLE masts are nearby.

Certainly we passed closely to the derailed APT set during single line working when said APT derailed at Milnthorpe on 2 May 1980. I was on the 16:10 Glasgow to Euston that day.

Northern services are serving Lancaster and Oxenholme still. Understandably it is difficult to terminate at Oxenholme, but there’s plenty of room to do it at Lancaster with connections to the Cumbrian coast round to Carlisle.

Since Oxenholme was remodelled a few years ago it is possible for down trains on to terminate at Oxenholme and the signalling allows them to depart directly in the up direction off the down platform. I believe that Virgin requested this facility at the time.

 

[Skiddaw]

Mechanical signal boxes often have, or had, a trailing crossover that can be used to switch between the lines. These are a great help in the event of turning back trains, engineering works, or single line working.

When Carlisle PSB was introduced, many of the locations of the former boxes kept their crossovers, with the addition of a new facing one as well as trailing ones. Rather than go through the expense of converting them to electric operation controlled directly from the panel, they kept them as they were on the ground controlled by a mechanical ground frame (a lever frame). These emergency ground frames are released by the signal box and allow trains to cross over between the lines under the authority of ground staff. They are termed "emergency" as they are not intended to be used in general service, only disruptions.

At the time of the power boxes opening, there was:

• Milnthorpe EGF
• Oxenholme EGF
• Lambrigg Crossing Frame, which was controlled by the gate box there until its abolition a few years later. These were involved in the Grayrigg crash and subsequently removed.
• Low Gill EGF
• Tebay EGF, which is now controlled by the box and a fully signalled route.
• Shap Summit EGF
• Clifton & Lowther EGF
• There is an emergency crossover at Penrith worked from the box, originally intended for moves to the CKP railway which was used during this single line working.
• Plumpton EGF
• Upperby EGF
• Quintinshill EGF

Some of these frames have been removed, made into switch panels rather than lever frames, or are now controlled directly from the signal box.

I've attached a photo I have of one of the office copies of the diagram for the trailing Clifton & Lowther crossover.

Thank you Lucy1501- that's fascinating! I shall never look at that stretch of line in the same way again.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed, guess there’d be little point in such a service if it didn’t at least serve those 3 vocations on route.

If it was Avanti or TPE diverting, they would run non stop Preston to Carlisle and vice versa.

 

[randyrippley]

Indeed Avanti social media are now lying, as they did in response to my tweet saying that the incident ‘affects the whole line’

x.com

x.com

Northern services are serving Lancaster and Oxenholme still. Understandably it is difficult to terminate at Oxenholme, but there’s plenty of room to do it at Lancaster with connections to the Cumbrian coast round to Carlisle.

An hour round trip shouldn’t be out of the reach of the modern railway.

Do Avanti's Preston crews sign north of Preston now? Every one of their trains I've been on recently seemed to switch to a Scottish crew at Preston

 

[Carlisle]

Do Avanti's Preston crews sign north of Preston now? Every one of their trains I've been on recently seemed to switch to a Scottish crew at Preston

Yes they do, but not all links, I’m sure others can elaborate further on the actual numbers.

 

[d70g]

It does make me wonder (as I'm sat here on a Carlisle to Glasgow train via Dumfries because no Avanti on the quick route) what Glasgow-based Avanti crew actually do when everything north of Preston is cancelled. There can't be that much mandatory training courses to do?

 

[Halwynd]

To be fair Avanti's social media do have rather an attitude problem - rude, dismissive, abrasive and downright incorrect responses seem to be the norm...

I have to agree, and having looked earlier I think I can guess the two to whom you refer.

But railway senior management don't help. According to Journeycheck, Northern are accepting TPE tickets, but not Avanti tickets. For crying out loud, when something like this happens the railway should just come together to get passengers to their destination by whatever alternative routes are available - its just another example which illustrates why an overall railway 'Chairman' is desperately required, if only to bang heads together.

Apparently there was one chap needing to travel from London to Dumfries this morning. He caught a King's Cross - Edinburgh service and, once onboard, asked Avanti whether he could alight at Newcastle then catch a service to Carlisle for another to Dumfries. Avanti told him no - he had to travel to Edinburgh, then across to Glasgow for the next service all the way down to Dumfries.

Some passengers, travelling from Edinburgh to Warrington yesterday afternoon, just after the derailment occured, are reported as having had to find their own accommodation in Carlisle. This morning they've been told that they shouldn't travel as there is no other available route from Carlisle to Warrington.

Embarrassing.

 

[chiltern trev]

With there being fewer derailments these days, the teams get less practice in re-railing.

Perhaps someone should look at the design of these trap points to make sure they throw well clear of the main line, as we have had several incidents where they haven't. If something like this happened with a passenger train closely approaching at full speed, then it could be a catastrophic event.

So how much to put in a trap point that is a full length proper point so as to dump a derailment off to one side away from a running line?

Looking at the Network Rail derailment photos, is the trap point of the short variety that drops one wheel between rails - is my assumption correct?

And how much will be paid out in Delay Repay - a huge amount. Do surely the payback period will be one derailment and less than 12 hours Delay Repay. And that is before you consider Reputational Damage, future lost income, etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But railway senior management don't help. According to Journeycheck, Northern are accepting TPE tickets, but not Avanti tickets. For crying out loud, when something like this happens the railway should just come together to get passengers to their destination by whatever alternative routes are available - its just another example which illustrates why an overall railway 'Chairman' is desperately required, if only to bang heads together.

This "who's accepting what" thing also doesn't help people who have flexible walk-up tickets. Most people would think of a London-Glasgow ticket as an "Avanti ticket" when in fact it's valid on any TOC on a permitted route. This being the case people will be confused into not using their perfectly valid tickets to travel on the trains that are running. A lot more people use walk-ups on the WCML as they're priced a fair way lower than on the ECML and Advances are often not well priced.

 

[edwin_m]

So how much to put in a trap point that is a full length proper point so as to dump a derailment off to one side away from a running line?

Looking at the Network Rail derailment photos, is the trap point of the short variety that drops one wheel between rails - is my assumption correct?

And how much will be paid out in Delay Repay - a huge amount. Do surely the payback period will be one derailment and less than 12 hours Delay Repay. And that is before you consider Reputational Damage, future lost income, etc.

From the photos posted above, it looks very much like the trap has derailed one wheel between the rails, the wagon has continued to roll forward so those wheels have come against the rail further from the main line, which has then steered the wagon towards the main line itself.

One solution to this type of problem would be to make the trap a full set of points with a crossing, but I guess this would cost well over a million and might make recovery more difficult if it sends the wagon off down the bank. An overrun track with a friction buffer stop would solve that problem but cost even more. An easier answer might be to place a sand drag between the rails so the wagon will stop sooner.

 

[philthetube]

Indeed Avanti social media are now lying, as they did in response to my tweet saying that the incident ‘affects the whole line’

not sure I would call this a lie, maybe you think that to say that one line is fine but we are unable to run any trains on it because the other one is blocked would be better

 

[Falcon1200]

Apparently there was one chap needing to travel from London to Dumfries this morning. He caught a King's Cross - Edinburgh service and, once onboard, asked Avanti whether he could alight at Newcastle then catch a service to Carlisle for another to Dumfries. Avanti told him no - he had to travel to Edinburgh, then across to Glasgow for the next service all the way down to Dumfries.

That acceptance might not have helped as Newcastle/Carlisle was closed for a while today by a landslip! And when the line re-opened things were not much better, the 1239 and 1323 departures from Newcastle to Carlisle were both cancelled, in both cases after the trains had been boarded and were busy with diverted passengers.

 

[387masterrace]

Exhausted from a camping trip in horrible weather in the lake district yesterday, I headed home on a trip which involved getting 1S66 (the last nortbound train that ran without disruption) up through Penrith. We were strongly considering spending another hour in the pub! I have only just realised how close we were to a painful trip home.

 

[Agent_Squash]

not sure I would call this a lie, maybe you think that to say that one line is fine but we are unable to run any trains on it because the other one is blocked would be better

The line between Preston and Oxenholme is fully functional - as a passenger, I shouldn’t have to care what happened further up if a train can still physically reach the destination, and especially if it can terminate early and come back!

 

[AndrewE]

not sure I would call this a lie, maybe you think that to say that one line is fine but we are unable to run any trains on it because the other one is blocked would be better

actually not better, as still not true...

 

[Mothball]

Having been watching the progress of the single line working, it strikes me as to how they’ve made the section from Penrith to Tebay, rather than making use of the emergency ground frames at Clifton & Lowther and the points at Shap Summit. In fact, the trailing crossover at Harrison’s Sidings could be used in lieu of Clifton & Lowther (albeit requiring a reverse).

Carlisle is one of the few boxes left with a relative abundance of trailing and emergency crossovers - I’m surprised they’re not being used to their fullest potential. It could dramatically improve throughput at the moment!

Seen a few comments on social media suggesting it's to do with the length/position of the OHLE Isolation for the rerailing team.

 

[AJP62]

but that won''t stop them throwing the towel in (agai

 

[Tractor2018]

It does make me wonder (as I'm sat here on a Carlisle to Glasgow train via Dumfries because no Avanti on the quick route) what Glasgow-based Avanti crew actually do when everything north of Preston is cancelled. There can't be that much mandatory training courses to do?

As you've said yourself, they're traincrew. What would you like them to do if there's no trains for them to work? National service maybe.

 

[randyrippley]

As you've said yourself, they're traincrew. What would you like them to do if there's no trains for them to work? National service maybe.

They could be usefully learning the Settle-Carlisle route in preparation of the next blockage......and maybe learning how to drive a diesel for towing the Pendos over the route

 

[Efini92]

They could be usefully learning the Settle-Carlisle route in preparation of the next blockage......and maybe learning how to drive a diesel for towing the Pendos over the route

Who’s going to pay for all that route learning? Then pay for all routes days that will be required to retain the knowledge?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Who’s going to pay for all that route learning? Then pay for all routes days that will be required to retain the knowledge?

They’re probably already paying for it with all the WCML North shutdowns!

 

[Efini92]

They’re probably already paying for it with all the WCML North shutdowns!

The point is Avanti won’t pay for anything.
Whilst it would be nice to have it as a diversion, it’s not practical. Nobody has 57’s on their cards anymore. The voyagers are going and there’s not enough 805’s.

 

[zwk500]

As you've said yourself, they're traincrew. What would you like them to do if there's no trains for them to work? National service maybe.

They could be usefully learning the Settle-Carlisle route in preparation of the next blockage......and maybe learning how to drive a diesel for towing the Pendos over the route

The scenario suggested was about during periods of intense disruption. How are they meant to route learn of there's no trains for them to work and they're spread all over the network away from a simulator? Watching a YouTube cab ride?