WCML Preston-Carlisle freight 1950s-60s

[eldomtom2]

I've recently purchased several freight working timetables covering the WCML between Preston and Carlisle in the 1950s and 60s, and am interested in further information regarding the workings over the WCML - the WTTs only contain the start/end points and headcodes of the services. In particular, I'm interested in information about the locos and rolling stock used. I am particularly interested in information regarding which services were likely to be hauled by Austerity 2-8-0s and 9Fs.

 

[52290]

As a spotter in Leyland in the 1950's I can tell you that 9F's were exceedingly rare on this part of the WCML at that time. They were most likely to be seen in the summer time on passenger workings to Blackpool from the East Midlands. Although Lostock Hall did have a sizeable allocation of Austerity 2-8-0's these were used mostly on freights to Yorkshire.
I can remember great excitement being caused when an Austerity 2-10-0 from Motherwell shed appeared at Lostock Hall one evening in the 1950's.

 

[Harvester]

As a spotter in Leyland in the 1950's I can tell you that 9F's were exceedingly rare on this part of the WCML at that time. They were most likely to be seen in the summer time on passenger workings to Blackpool from the East Midlands. Although Lostock Hall did have a sizeable allocation of Austerity 2-8-0's these were used mostly on freights to Yorkshire.
I can remember great excitement being caused when an Austerity 2-10-0 from Motherwell shed appeared at Lostock Hall one evening in the 1950's.

I would add that WD 2-8-0s would have been rarer than 9Fs on WCML freight workings between Carlisle and Preston, and may not have had any booked diagrams. On many visits to Carlisle as a youngster I did see the occasional WD 2-8-0 and WD 2-10-0 at Kingmoor and Upperby sheds, but they were Scottish based locos which would return from Carlisle on north bound freights. In the 1950s and early 1960s Stanier Class 5s and 8Fs would have dominated the freight workings over Shap, but from 1961/1962 onwards Jubilee, Royal Scots, Duchesses and Britannias, displaced by diesels on passenger workings, would become a common sight on freights.

 

[Bevan Price]

I would add that WD 2-8-0s would have been rarer than 9Fs on WCML freight workings between Carlisle and Preston, and may not have had any booked diagrams. On many visits to Carlisle as a youngster I did see the occasional WD 2-8-0 and WD 2-10-0 at Kingmoor and Upperby sheds, but they were Scottish based locos which would return from Carlisle on north bound freights. In the 1950s and early 1960s Stanier Class 5s and 8Fs would have dominated the freight workings over Shap, but from 1961/1962 onwards Jubilee, Royal Scots, Duchesses and Britannias, displaced by diesels on passenger workings, would become a common sight on freights.

9Fs were uncommon in the area until they were displaced from Midlands (MML) depots, mostly from 1964 onwards. Also possible in earlier years were ex-LNWR 7F 0-8-0s, and (on lighter trains) 4F 0-6-0s.

 

[Taunton]

Although WDs were unusual on the WCML, one usage was on mineral trains from Middlesbrough that came over Stainmore, joined the WCML at Tebay heading south, and from beyond Oxenholme took the line that branched off to Arnside on the Furness line, and thus to Barrow. I believe the steel industries on Teesside and around Barrow/Millom had some relationship. There were several photos of such trains appeared in magazines of the era. Locos were from Thornaby and adjacent sheds.

 

[6Gman]

I've recently purchased several freight working timetables covering the WCML between Preston and Carlisle in the 1950s and 60s, and am interested in further information regarding the workings over the WCML - the WTTs only contain the start/end points and headcodes of the services. In particular, I'm interested in information about the locos and rolling stock used. I am particularly interested in information regarding which services were likely to be hauled by Austerity 2-8-0s and 9Fs.

There would have been huge changes across those two decades.

Bear in mind it was ex-LNWR so in the early 1950s 0-8-0s would probably still be widely used, with some Stanier 8Fs. Although lots of Austerities worked in Lancashire they were mostly at ex-L&Y depots.

A browse through the ShedBash website will give a good idea of how things changed over the years.

Taking Preston, Carnforth & Carlisle Upperby shed allocations.

In 1950 they had (between them) 18 0-8-0s, 15 0-6-0s (mostly 4F, but also 2F & 3F) and 50 Black 5s (many of which of course would have been for passenger work.
By 1959 it was 8 0-8-0s, 16 0-6-0s, and 62 Black 5s.
By 1965 Preston had closed and Upperby only had a handful of locos allocated but overall there were now no 0-8-0s, 4 0-6-0s, 24 Black 5s, but also 8 4MT 2-6-0s and 2 Stanier 8Fs. Note these were the only 8Fs listed though examples from Crewe South, Edge Hill, Kingmoor etc may well have been seen.

 

[Harvester]

Although WDs were unusual on the WCML, one usage was on mineral trains from Middlesbrough that came over Stainmore, joined the WCML at Tebay heading south, and from beyond Oxenholme took the line that branched off to Arnside on the Furness line, and thus to Barrow. I believe the steel industries on Teesside and around Barrow/Millom had some relationship. There were several photos of such trains appeared in magazines of the era. Locos were from Thornaby and adjacent sheds.

Quite surprised at this! I thought Ivatt and BR standard 4MT 2-6-0s were the heaviest classes permitted over the Barnard Castle-Kirkby Stephen section due to weight restrictions on the viaducts, although they could double head if required. I was lucky to travel over Stainmore and Belah viaduct on a school special to Penrith as a youngster in 1959. Haulage was by a pair of Darlington Ivatt 2-6-0s (43050 and 43129) on quite a heavy train, but I was too young to fully appreciate the experience.

 

[Bevan Price]

There would have been huge changes across those two decades.

Bear in mind it was ex-LNWR so in the early 1950s 0-8-0s would probably still be widely used, with some Stanier 8Fs. Although lots of Austerities worked in Lancashire they were mostly at ex-L&Y depots.

A browse through the ShedBash website will give a good idea of how things changed over the years.

Taking Preston, Carnforth & Carlisle Upperby shed allocations.

In 1950 they had (between them) 18 0-8-0s, 15 0-6-0s (mostly 4F, but also 2F & 3F) and 50 Black 5s (many of which of course would have been for passenger work.
By 1959 it was 8 0-8-0s, 16 0-6-0s, and 62 Black 5s.
By 1965 Preston had closed and Upperby only had a handful of locos allocated but overall there were now no 0-8-0s, 4 0-6-0s, 24 Black 5s, but also 8 4MT 2-6-0s and 2 Stanier 8Fs. Note these were the only 8Fs listed though examples from Crewe South, Edge Hill, Kingmoor etc may well have been seen.

Although Preston mpd had closed, Lostock Hall took over its remaining workings, and retained steam until August 1968.

 

[Taunton]

I am actually wondering whether the two small locos did handle the coke/ironstone trains over Stainforth with its spindly viaducts, and they changed to a WD at Tebay. I did read a late account of Tebay steam shed, which might be thought to only have bankers for the climb to the WCML summit, and there was a WD on shed there as well. The photos I recall of them with these trains were further west, on the Oxenholme to Arnside link line.

Regarding Preston and Lostock Hall, the pre-1923 split of responsibilities between the LNWR and L&Y was never straightened out by the LMS, nor BR in early days, and up until about 1960 things were still separated, the two sheds kept to their own traditions, were in different LMR divisions, and had different sets of locomotives. This was also still reflected in Preston station where the passenger services were very much separated into two sides. I believe Preston (ex-LNWR) shed had a serious fire around 1960, which apart from destroying the staff accommodation damaged some locomotives beyond repair, and was closed not long afterwards, with Lostock Hall only then taking WCML responsibilities.

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . . In particular, I'm interested in information about the locos and rolling stock used. . . .

Although Preston mpd had closed, Lostock Hall took over its remaining workings, and retained steam until August 1968.

Speaking of Lostock Hall shed, anyone with a passing interest in freight operations between Preston and Carlisle in the late 1960s can do worse than have a read of a five-page article (eight pages including photos) in the 1973 edition of Railway World Annual.

Copies of this book can be easily found on eBay, usually at reasonable prices - e.g. this one (not my listing, by the way).

The article is entitled The Appleby Job and was written by Fred Hopkinson, a driver at Lostock Hall shed at the time. It's a from-the-horse's-mouth account of a 'hard day's night' on the footplate in November 1967, right at the end of steam, driving the 19:35 Edge Hill - Carlisle goods, and returning with the 01:20 Carlisle - Crewe goods between Lostock Hall Junction and Appleby (these trains were routed over the S&C, not Shap).

Hopkinson's engaging story has quite a bit of 'technical' detail and is full of the gritty realities of the job, such as:
- The author initially anticipating a 'cushy ride' in a Type 2 diesel, but ending up with a week of hard labour on steam, since the Edge Hill crew assigned to the train's Liverpool - Lostock Hall leg was not trained on diesels.
- The art of steam locomotive maintenance out on the road: Hit it with a hammer; if that doesn't work, get a bigger hammer.
- Fine, crisp November weather on most of the route - except at Ribblehead, where it was raining and blowing a gale (how unusual).
- On the way home, getting stuck behind a poorly-running steam-hauled Carlisle - Tinsley freight on the climb up from Appleby to Ais Gill and on to Blea Moor.
- Second-guessing where the Tinsley train would be stopping for water. Hopkinson correctly predicted it'd be on the Hellifield water column, so lucky he had paused his train earlier at Settle to fill his own tender.
- Delayed for 40 minutes waiting for a banking engine to help push the train up Wilpshire bank, because the local banker had been called away to a job in Blackburn. The author had been given conflicting information on the train's load by Control and his guard, and chose not to 'give it go' up Wilpshire bank and risk stalling, plus the steam-era equivalent of a 'no tea and biscuits' interview.
- Finally booking off duty one hour late, but that was considered ‘not too bad’ in the circumstances.

Regarding the motive power, it's possible to collate info on the types of engines used during that particular week.
19:35 Edge Hill - Carlisle:-

• Mon 31 Oct 1967 - Britannia (number not mentioned)
• Tue 01 Nov 1967 - Britannia no. 70051 'Firth of Forth' (Kingmoor)
• Wed 02 Nov 1967 - Black 5 (number not mentioned)
• Thu 03 Nov 1967- Black 5 no. 44910 (Kingmoor)
• Fri 04 Nov 1967 - Black 5 (number not mentioned)

On the particular day recounted (Thursday 3rd) the other locos involved were:

• 01:00 Carlisle-Tinsley - Black 5 no. 45253 (Kingmoor)
• 01:20 Carlisle-Crewe - Black 5 no. 45349 (Crewe South)

The story also illustrates how labour-intensive this type of slow goods train operation was.
The 19:35 Edge Hill to Carlisle train needed three separate crews on the footplate to complete its journey - one each from Edge Hill, Lostock Hall & Kingmoor sheds.
The 01:20 Carlisle - Crewe also needed three:
- Carlisle to Appleby (Skipton crew, who then rode in the brake van from Appleby & were dropped off at Hellifield)
- Appleby to Lostock Hall Junction (Lostock Hall crew)
- Lostock Hall Junction to Crewe (second set of Lostock Hall men)

The following week, the author says, the loco diagrams were all revised.
The 19:35 ex-Edge Hill went over to a Springs Branch diesel, Crewe South steam shed closed, and Lostock Hall men's requirement to battle over the S&C each night slipped into history.

That's just one, specific snapshot of goods operations over the northern fells (and maybe not exactly what the OP was asking for), but I found the article a fascinating read.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I would add that WD 2-8-0s would have been rarer than 9Fs on WCML freight workings between Carlisle and Preston, and may not have had any booked diagrams. On many visits to Carlisle as a youngster I did see the occasional WD 2-8-0 and WD 2-10-0 at Kingmoor and Upperby sheds, but they were Scottish based locos which would return from Carlisle on north bound freights. In the 1950s and early 1960s Stanier Class 5s and 8Fs would have dominated the freight workings over Shap, but from 1961/1962 onwards Jubilee, Royal Scots, Duchesses and Britannias, displaced by diesels on passenger workings, would become a common sight on freights.

My observations at Preston in the late 50s/early 60s is that most WCML Northwards was black 5s or5XPs. Some local goods trains were 0-8-0 7f. The austerity 8fs were through Preston were on their way to Fleetwood area with coal. The austerities from Lostock Hall worked goods from Butler Street or other locations around Preston plus mineral trains from Yorkshire along the Calder Valley. 9fs were very rare except on excursions from Yorkshire and East Midlands.LMS 8fs were quite infrquent but not rare. 4fs appeared on excursion trains but very rarely on goods trains. It was very noticeable that the Southbound evening goods trains were pretty much always class 5 or 5XPs. I'm not sure what workings the Preston class 5 and 5XPs were mainly used on.

9Fs were uncommon in the area until they were displaced from Midlands (MML) depots, mostly from 1964 onwards. Also possible in earlier years were ex-LNWR 7F 0-8-0s, and (on lighter trains) 4F 0-6-0s.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

Although WDs were unusual on the WCML, one usage was on mineral trains from Middlesbrough that came over Stainmore, joined the WCML at Tebay heading south, and from beyond Oxenholme took the line that branched off to Arnside on the Furness line, and thus to Barrow. I believe the steel industries on Teesside and around Barrow/Millom had some relationship. There were several photos of such trains appeared in magazines of the era. Locos were from Thornaby and adjacent sheds.

I thought those workings carried iron ore from Furness to the blast furnaces on Teesside (and possibly at Consett), but happy to be corrected if I'm wrong

 

[Taunton]

Given the difficulties of running over Stainmore, one wonders why they didn't take the easy way, through Carlisle and Newcastle.

There was longstanding concern about the fragile Stainmore viaducts, but running bulk mineral trains over them can't have helped. We had the same sort of viaducts on Taunton-Barnstaple, such that double-heading was not allowed over them, and when the Royal Train no less came that way, late 1950s, 2 x 43xx locos, they had to stop at each, first loco crossed over, the second one with the train then followed, with about 20 layers of management staff who had tramped down through the brambles from a nearby road to oversee it all. Of course, they could have gone down to Exeter, but then up the Southern to Barnstaple ... No, No, and No again. I wonder if the same past jealousies penetrated the Stainmore mineral trains.

 

[Harvester]

I thought those workings carried iron ore from Furness to the blast furnaces on Teesside (and possibly at Consett), but happy to be corrected if I'm wrong

The main freight flow over Stainmore was coke from the Durham pits to the iron and steel works in Furness. The assembly point for these trains, up until the time they were diverted via Carlisle and Whitehaven, was West Auckland not Teesside. The running via Carlisle from July 1960 using Blaydon yards for assembly, was meant to be a temporary experiment, but soon became permanent once the reduced costs per train became apparent.

Freights to Furness when running via Stainmore had to negotiate a 17 mile stretch of WCML from Tebay to Hincaster Junction (mentioned upthread) before branching off to Arnside. Due to route restrictions between Barnard Castle and Kirkby Stephen, any WD 2-8-0 haulage, if indeed it happened, would only have occurred after a loco change at Tebay!

 

[Gloster]

The Stainmore line was raised from RA2 to RA4 in 1954, but several other types were allowed on it including WD 2-8-0s and Q6 0-8-0s. Neither type was allowed to double-head and the Q6 only traversed the line to get to and from their new base at Kirkby Stephen. On the Tebay line the limit was higher.

I have looked through my various books but can find no references to 9Fs being used down to Furness. However, the sample wasn’t that large.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

The main freight flow over Stainmore was coke from the Durham pits to the iron and steel works in Furness. The assembly point for these trains, up until the time they were diverted via Carlisle and Whitehaven, was West Auckland not Teesside. The running via Carlisle from July 1960 using Blaydon yards for assembly, was meant to be a temporary experiment, but soon became permanent once the reduced costs per train became apparent.

Freights to Furness when running via Stainmore had to negotiate a 17 mile stretch of WCML from Tebay to Hincaster Junction (mentioned upthread) before branching off to Arnside. Due to route restrictions between Barnard Castle and Kirkby Stephen, any WD 2-8-0 haulage, if indeed it happened, would only have occurred after a loco change at Tebay!

Thanks - I was thinking of the right industry, just the wrong commodity and the wrong direction!

 

[Harvester]

The Stainmore line was raised from RA2 to RA4 in 1954, but several other types were allowed on it including WD 2-8-0s and Q6 0-8-0s. Neither type was allowed to double-head and the Q6 only traversed the line to get to and from their new base at Kirkby Stephen. On the Tebay line the limit was higher.

Those two Q6 0-8-0s, 63355 and 63373, allocated to Kirkby Stephen in April 1955 double-headed on the Tebay line on at least one occasion, and came to grief while doing so. Both were running tender first hauling an empty mineral train on 20/5/1955, when 63373 derailed, slid down an embankment and dragged both tenders with it. Both locos went to Darlington works for repair, but the authorities quickly decided against sending them back to KS. They were reallocated back to Middlesbrough whilst still under repair at Darlington! I’ve never come across any photographs or reports regarding WD 2-8-0s running over Stainmore, but maybe something out there will one day turn up?

 

[randyrippley]

Given the difficulties of running over Stainmore, one wonders why they didn't take the easy way, through Carlisle and Newcastle.

There was longstanding concern about the fragile Stainmore viaducts, but running bulk mineral trains over them can't have helped. We had the same sort of viaducts on Taunton-Barnstaple, such that double-heading was not allowed over them, and when the Royal Train no less came that way, late 1950s, 2 x 43xx locos, they had to stop at each, first loco crossed over, the second one with the train then followed, with about 20 layers of management staff who had tramped down through the brambles from a nearby road to oversee it all. Of course, they could have gone down to Exeter, but then up the Southern to Barnstaple ... No, No, and No again. I wonder if the same past jealousies penetrated the Stainmore mineral trains.

But wasn't that the whole rationale of building the Stainmore route - to get iron ore and coke from the NE to Barrow by the most direct route?

 

[Gloster]

But wasn't that the whole rationale of building the Stainmore route - to get iron ore and coke from the NE to Barrow by the most direct route?

The line was built to carry coal and coke from County Durham to the iron works along the ‘Cumbrian Coast’ and to carry the rich iron ore from the Barrow area the other way to be mixed with the poorer Cleveland ores on Teesside.

 

[thesignalman]

I've recently purchased several freight working timetables covering the WCML between Preston and Carlisle in the 1950s and 60s, and am interested in further information regarding the workings over the WCML - the WTTs only contain the start/end points and headcodes of the services. In particular, I'm interested in information about the locos and rolling stock used. I am particularly interested in information regarding which services were likely to be hauled by Austerity 2-8-0s and 9Fs.

Echoing what has been said, both 9Fs and WDs were rare north of Preston.

Kingmoor acquired a small number of 9Fs in later years, these were primarily for the anhydrite services from Long Meg Sidings (on the Settle & Carlisle line) southwards after upgrade to bogie hoppers but they did appear on stone workings between Shap Quarry and Carlisle during the construction of the new Kingmoor yard. There was no turntable at Shap, so one direction always had to be worked tender-first.

John